Can anyone estimate the size of the spread on the oxer in question?? It is hard to judge from the picture.
[QUOTE=HLMom;8775678]
I would never blame any individual rider who didnât make a fuss about a particular fence, but I wonder if there could be a system where there were designated rider representatives, and concerns could be raised to them and perhaps discussed amongst the riders prior to cross-country day?[/QUOTE]
Is there really no ridersâ representative in eventing? If so, thatâs a shockingly bad idea. Every sanctioned US steeplechase race has a ridersâ representative available to bring the jocksâ concerns to the stewards without fear of reprisal. And, this happens routinely - when the jocks raise a concern, jumps are taken out, wings repositioned, whatever it takes. It seems to me a similar system would be a big help in eventing.
[QUOTE=Bug Boy;8778813]
Is there really no ridersâ representative in eventing? If so, thatâs a shockingly bad idea. Every sanctioned US steeplechase race has a ridersâ representative available to bring the jocksâ concerns to the stewards without fear of reprisal. And, this happens routinely - when the jocks raise a concern, jumps are taken out, wings repositioned, whatever it takes. It seems to me a similar system would be a big help in eventing.[/QUOTE]
There are rider reps.
From the FEI âauditâ of safety that came out last week, the auditor and the universities imply (or at least I infer they are implying) that the data being collected by the FEI is far too inadequate for anyone to make real safety recommendations based on whatâs been collected.
Auditor has many recommendations for collecting improved data. Lots of expensive recommendations throughout the report. He also suggests radically reimagining the sport and shortening it. Eventing showcase, anyone?
[QUOTE=Bug Boy;8778813]
Is there really no ridersâ representative in eventing? If so, thatâs a shockingly bad idea. Every sanctioned US steeplechase race has a ridersâ representative available to bring the jocksâ concerns to the stewards without fear of reprisal. And, this happens routinely - when the jocks raise a concern, jumps are taken out, wings repositioned, whatever it takes. It seems to me a similar system would be a big help in eventing.[/QUOTE]
We do have them already.
[QUOTE=HLMom;8778212]
Can anyone estimate the size of the spread on the oxer in question?? It is hard to judge from the picture.[/QUOTE]
At least for US Eventing (I canât find BE spread specifications right now) the maximum top spread for an oxer is 5â11. Iâm guessing that this oxer was probably right around there. 6â is when Iâve had a couple of horses (1.50-1.60m show jumpers in the ring- so not quite the same but would be my point of reference) start wondering if a spread was a bounce on occasion. With so little height to this fence and the front and back flags, I can absolutely see how it would be read as a bounce.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8778175]
Totally agree with LAZ. We ask enough of our small venue providers, for goodnessâ sake â they donât need mandatory pics of each fence on each course!! Most are not Rolex! What a burden. You want it, you volunteer to do it!!![/QUOTE]
This wasnât a lower level event though.
I will gladly volunteer, I do run a Facebook page dedicated to cross country courses in Ontario.
I wasnât referring to mapping anything, just photos of the course. I also run events, schooling ones but they are successful and I do it mostly on my own. I have pictures of all my fences on my website.
The safety auditorâs recommendations specifically cover video and photo evidence of each fence in an FEI competitionâand more of the course in general.
I realize that horse people may not be high tech, but neither am I. But how is data collection ever supposed to matter if some of the most important factors in riding a XC course are ignored.
A course designer designs a course on a particular map with terrain that rarely changes from year to year. There are, especially in England, topo maps available from the government and other sources that show the terrain in very fine detail. The course designer should be required to have that map and to place the course fences on it as well as on the ground. Then the map should be sent to the governing body and the TDs at whatever level along with descriptions and photographs and measurements within combinations of every jumping effort and combination. This is not rocket science, and much of it is probably already done with the course designer.
You could even do a one time 3D model of the terrain. Every terrain change made by the CD would have to be mapped and filed.
Iâm only talking about FEI level competitions, but perhaps the mapping idea could eventually make its way down to âlesserâ competitions.
4.Improvements to Data Collection
Although data has been collected for some 14 years and the quality of its collection has improved significantly, the data collection process needs to be reviewed. It is always going to be difficult to obtain accurate and objective data when it is mainly collected by Fence Judges who provide their services for free. However, it would not be overly difficult to provide significant assistance to this large group of volunteers. My recommendations are as follows:
- The FEI Eventing Fall Report Form has been in existence for some time and I feel it could be improved and developed into a more comprehensive âFence Judge
Report Formâ, to capture all relevant information. This redesign is a complex task
and I would recommend the formation of a working party to undertake this work.
(âThe Working Groupâ). The Working Group should include a cross section of
practitioners, technical advisers and data analysts to ensure that the information
gathered is relevant and can enable scientifically robust analysis. - The Fence Description Sheet has been in existence for 10 years. Whilst the
diagrams and broad classification of fences provide some useful descriptive
information, more detailed data is now required. Thus, my recommendation is that fences are redefined and full descriptive data and measurements are recorded. The aforementioned Working Group could undertake this task. - With the increased use of frangible devices, it is crucial to record full details of the instances when these devices are broken. It is equally important to record the instances when a fence has been impacted yet the frangible device remains unbroken. Thus, my recommendation is that a specific form is created which is dedicated to fences where there is a frangible device. The Working Group could also carry out this task; and it could be incorporated into the Judges Report Form.
- Ensure a system of gathering data for random controls is implemented. Effective analysis of risk factors for horse falls requires comparison with a population of non fallers. Thus the Fence Judge Report Form should be completed not only for horse falls and unseated riders, but also for a random sample of horse-rider combinations that clear each fence on each course. Information relating to refusals would also be useful and allow for more comprehensive and detailed analysis.
- So often, during this study, I have wanted to see a film of an incident. If we had a film of each fall we could learn a lot from it.
a. Filming every horse jumping every fence would be immensely helpful and
thus I recommend that consideration be given to the provision of head
camera for Fence Judges. While it would be advantageous to have this for
all FEI events, at this stage it is not practical. As such, I suggest the
provision at 4* and 3* level. A stock of such cameras could be owned by
the FEI and sent to each event. The memory card in these cameras could
be sent back to Lausanne if there had been a fall. It would also be available
to the T.D./Ground Jury for immediate review, if required. In addition, if the Ground Jury had film of each fence, they could deal with any objections/enquiries very soon after the event, and in any event on the day,
so a result can be properly given.
b. Alongside the provision of head cameras, I recommend that, for 4* and 3*
events, the FEI require these to have a specified minimum level of TV coverage. - Request Fence Judges and/or Technical Delegates/Course Designers to photograph every fence and attach this image to the Event Report Form which is sent back to Lausanne
- Data collection is a substantial and labour consuming task. With the use of modern technology, it should be possible to create a Fence Judge Report form that can, in the main, be computer read. If that were possible then much time at Lausanne, currently used in manually transferring data, could be freed up and there would be less chance of inaccuracies and human error when data is transposed.
- As collection of data is so important, it would be helpful and welcomed by most Fence Judges if a training and explanatory video were prepared for them. This could be disseminated by the T.D., Head Steward or organiser and would help them in their job of recording what had happened at their fence.
- We need to provide a clearer definition of what we mean by a Horse Fall, in
particular, a Rotational Horse Fall, so that all Fence Judges can utilise these
definitions when filling in their Fall Report Forms.
10.With avoiding rotational falls being so critical to the sport, more information on ground lines and their position relative to the main body of the fence would be
beneficial. Distance of a ground line from the vertical and height of a ground line
may help in identifying the fences, which are least likely to cause a rotational fall. Additionally, more information is required about the front contour of fences. These aspects could be incorporated in (1) above.
11.The data which the FEI has collected over many years is invaluable but needs to be properly analysed and my suggestion is that there needs to be an annual detailed analysis carried out of all this data collected at FEI events. This would allow the FEI to track trends and to see if interventions have had any positive effect.
Auditorâs recommendations from the FEI commissioned audit.
Bug Boy, There are rider reps at each recognized event. However, most of them are riding and helping their students, so it is difficult to go through them (that has been my experience.) I usually get passed off directly to the TD. Some of them are excellent and will address your concerns immediately. Some, not so much.
I am a PIA, when it comes to jumps that I believe are unfair for the level. Most of the time, I feel like I am being heard. I had one TD, who was awesome, who got his golf cart, took me out to the places of my concerns and immediately called to have them fixed. Whenever I look in the Omnibus for officials, I love to see his name! :yes:
Then, I had one TD, who argued with me about a BN ditch. When I showed him the USEA rule in the rulebook, he said, âWell, the TDâs want to change that rule, because it is obsolete, so the jump stands, as is.â :eek: I look for his name, as an official, too and will not ride where he is the TD.
[QUOTE=Auburn;8781072]
Bug Boy, There are rider reps at each recognized event. However, most of them are riding and helping their students, so it is difficult to go through them (that has been my experience.) I usually get passed off directly to the TD. Some of them are excellent and will address your concerns immediately. Some, not so much.
I am a PIA, when it comes to jumps that I believe are unfair for the level. Most of the time, I feel like I am being heard. I had one TD, who was awesome, who got his golf cart, took me out to the places of my concerns and immediately called to have them fixed. Whenever I look in the Omnibus for officials, I love to see his name! :yes:
Then, I had one TD, who argued with me about a BN ditch. When I showed him the USEA rule in the rulebook, he said, âWell, the TDâs want to change that rule, because it is obsolete, so the jump stands, as is.â :eek: I look for his name, as an official, too and will not ride where he is the TD.[/QUOTE]
You raise some very interesting issues. At any sanctioned jump racing meet, the riderâs representative will be in the jocksâ room with the riders. Makes life much easier, not to mention safer. Perhaps eventing should consider stationing this position in a fixed location for easy access by the riders.
It also strikes me that eventing is, if anything, more dangerous than jump racing, and yet there is no licensing for riders, and, generally, not nearly so much emphasis on physical fitness for riders. As I understand it, anyone can enter an event, at least at Training level, without any indication of skill on the part of themselves or their horse. Perhaps if eventing required the same rigor with respect to licensing as jump racing, injuries could be reduced. Likewise, any licensed jock is going to be hard fit. Perhaps if eventing instituted a max weight or BMI, or some other fitness standard, that would help, too. Fit riders ride better and tend to suffer less severe injuries when they fall.
[QUOTE=Bug Boy;8781202]
You raise some very interesting issues. At any sanctioned jump racing meet, the riderâs representative will be in the jocksâ room with the riders. Makes life much easier, not to mention safer. Perhaps eventing should consider stationing this position in a fixed location for easy access by the riders.
It also strikes me that eventing is, if anything, more dangerous than jump racing, and yet there is no licensing for riders, and, generally, not nearly so much emphasis on physical fitness for riders. As I understand it, anyone can enter an event, at least at Training level, without any indication of skill on the part of themselves or their horse. Perhaps if eventing required the same rigor with respect to licensing as jump racing, injuries could be reduced. Likewise, any licensed jock is going to be hard fit. Perhaps if eventing instituted a max weight or BMI, or some other fitness standard, that would help, too. Fit riders ride better and tend to suffer less severe injuries when they fall.[/QUOTE]
and here we go. Sigh.
I agree that since riding is a sport, a level of fitness is involved. But where is your data about the statement in bold. Empirical evidence of BMI/muscle mass/cardiovascular fitness and weight in relations to degree of injury.
Not only that; I canât recall any of the riders who have died being remotely overweight.
[QUOTE=Bug Boy;8781202]
Perhaps if eventing required the same rigor with respect to licensing as jump racing, injuries could be reduced. Likewise, any licensed jock is going to be hard fit. Perhaps if eventing instituted a max weight or BMI, or some other fitness standard, that would help, too. Fit riders ride better and tend to suffer less severe injuries when they fall.[/QUOTE]
???
I donât even know where to start with this post.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8781221]
and here we go. Sigh.
I agree that since riding is a sport, a level of fitness is involved. But where is your data about the statement in bold. Empirical evidence of BMI/muscle mass/cardiovascular fitness and weight in relations to degree of injury.[/QUOTE]
Hey, just trying to help, not be controversial. To be clear, i have no data, this is my opinion, supported by only anecdotal evidence. Had I thought itâd be a controversial point, I wouldnât have raised it. Sorry!
I have a theory on why we canât see the course. I recall that Sue Benson was sued by some govât outfit by one of her courses before the London Games because it was deemed unsafe. I think that may be whatâs going on here and why we canât see the course/fence in question. In the UK, the govât does sue/fine/something the PTB for unsafe jumps.
[QUOTE=Bug Boy;8781247]
Hey, just trying to help, not be controversial. To be clear, i have no data, this is my opinion, supported by only anecdotal evidence. Had I thought itâd be a controversial point, I wouldnât have raised it. Sorry![/QUOTE]
There may be many things wrong with upper level eventing but I can assure you that unfit riders are not one of them. They could likely hold their own against a ten pound bug.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8779266]
This wasnât a lower level event though.
I will gladly volunteer, I do run a Facebook page dedicated to cross country courses in Ontario.
I wasnât referring to mapping anything, just photos of the course. I also run events, schooling ones but they are successful and I do it mostly on my own. I have pictures of all my fences on my website.[/QUOTE]
i have photos of all my fences on my FB page, but youâd have to look at people jumping them, not many of the fences by themselves. However, my remarks stand, expecting an organizer to provide photos of all the fences on their courses is an onerous burden. If people on social media want this service they need to,set it up themselves. Offering to provide them on a website is great, but itâs not offering to take the photos, process them, and then keep the course photos current.
There was a rotational fall at an open corner today - Padraig McCarthy. (On the CBC on demand itâs at about 25:00 minutes in.)
The rider took back a bit too much in the combination, so he tried to add a short one before the corner, then didnât have enough impulsion to clear it. The horse hit the fence with his front feet and then didnât clear it with his hinds, landed somersaulting and luckily the rider was just barely thrown clear as the hind end came over.
I donât know if that fence was pinned, but it was the back rail hit, and it did not give.
Updated to add 21 yr old Russian Nikita Sotskov.
RIP
