WTF Are We Doing?

[skydy]

Instagram link does not work.

[skydy]

The photo at the start of the video looks dire. The horse jumping in the video looks OK.

What a sad day.

[vineyridge]

The photo at the beginning of the video looks like it must have been the fence that he fell at.

Question: are most rotationals caused by jumping too close to the base so there isn’t room for the front to get up?

[JER]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8845163]

Question: are most rotationals caused by jumping too close to the base so there isn’t room for the front to get up?[/QUOTE]

In the original TRL studies from 2000, a rotational fall was described as when the horse hits the jump from above the knee to the chest.

What you describe would be one cause of that. (Failure to jump at all would be another.)

[Auburn]

vineyridge, If that was the photo, then it was a very flat table that caused it. Why those jumps are still allowed is beyond me?

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Auburn;8845400]
vineyridge, If that was the photo, then it was a very flat table that caused it. Why those jumps are still allowed is beyond me?[/QUOTE]
Because the FEI just hired super man DOC to save the day and they don’t want to do anything until Super Dave tells them its okay.

“Super Dave, we think wide flat tables with bad ground lines are killer fences, we want to take them out”

“Now hold FEI, let’s not be hasty, I’ll study it for a few years or until I can get Eventing to look like a Derby and those fences won’t fit.”

(/s)

[Jealoushe]

They already know what fences cause it. They already know frangible pins hardly work half the time. They don’t care because UL riders keep coming. What’s that, 5 deaths in 12 months? Not acceptable. And by saying them I mean course designers, TDs, FEI, host facilities etc.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8845548]
They already know what fences cause it. They already know frangible pins hardly work half the time. They don’t care because UL riders keep coming. What’s that, 5 deaths in 12 months? Not acceptable. And by saying them I mean course designers, TDs, FEI, host facilities etc.[/QUOTE]

Here’s something that happened just yesterday morning:

A friend who builds XC jumps/courses told me over coffee that the night before, he’d had a full-on nightmare about a jump he’s currently building for an upcoming (recognized) competition.

It’s a portable open oxer jump, built exactly to the (licensed) course designer’s specifications. The nightmare consisted of a girl having a fatal accident at it. The builder said he’s been bothered by the cross talk of ‘that type of fence is dangerous, it’s how people get killed’ and ‘now I’m hiring you to build that type of fence’.

So there’s our sport in a nutshell.

This is nothing new. I recall flat tables being a problem – ‘problem’ in this case means riders were getting killed at them – in the mid-1990s, and that flat tables were supposed to go the way of the flat earth theory.

That didn’t happen, did it?

[Lady_Eboshi]

Another event, another wreck, another standard hand-wringing of the Greek chorus.

And so it goes . . .

Until the day competitors decide that staying ALIVE practicing a RECREATIONAL level of sport is what they’d prefer to do.

But those who choose this, motocross, skydiving, ocean kayaking, mountaineering, etc. will always have a certain level of attrition paying for all that adrenaline. As long as someone’s still willing to underwrite it, there’s really nothing to be “done.”

[JER]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8844485]
As far as what has been done - David O’Connor has been named to head some safety task force or another. [/QUOTE]

1. What exactly qualifies this person to head a safety task force?

2. Perhaps instead DOC should focus on his position as chef d’equipe of USA High Performance Eventing and continue working toward the goal of eventually finishing a team at a major championships.

[Blugal]

@JER;8846266

1. What exactly qualifies this person to head a safety task force?

When has that question ever bothered the FEI?

[JP60]

[QUOTE=JER;8846266]

2. Perhaps instead DOC should focus on his position as chef d’equipe of USA High Performance Eventing and continue working toward the goal of eventually finishing a team at a major championships.[/QUOTE]
   Given his track record? I figured he’s just getting set for his next position after he gets sacked by the USET or whoever hires chef’s. O, wait, we don’t do that in this country. Like the Wells Fargo Executive who committed fraud and got a 124 million dollar severance package, the Chef position is not required to produce anything, but media attention and seemingly can’t get fired, because…??? optics?

At this point I offer my services for the pay is very good, the work schedule quite reasonable and producing a finishing, not even a winning team seems to be optional. If it seems harsh it is meant to be for in most other jobs, if you don’t meet expectations you tend to get fired.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=JER;8846063]
Here’s something that happened just yesterday morning:

A friend who builds XC jumps/courses told me over coffee that the night before, he’d had a full-on nightmare about a jump he’s currently building for an upcoming (recognized) competition.

It’s a portable open oxer jump, built exactly to the (licensed) course designer’s specifications. The nightmare consisted of a girl having a fatal accident at it. The builder said he’s been bothered by the cross talk of ‘that type of fence is dangerous, it’s how people get killed’ and ‘now I’m hiring you to build that type of fence’.

So there’s our sport in a nutshell.

This is nothing new. I recall flat tables being a problem – ‘problem’ in this case means riders were getting killed at them – in the mid-1990s, and that flat tables were supposed to go the way of the flat earth theory.

That didn’t happen, did it?[/QUOTE]

That makes me sick.

[Littleluck55]

[QUOTE=JER;8846063]
Here’s something that happened just yesterday morning:

A friend who builds XC jumps/courses told me over coffee that the night before, he’d had a full-on nightmare about a jump he’s currently building for an upcoming (recognized) competition.

It’s a portable open oxer jump, built exactly to the (licensed) course designer’s specifications. The nightmare consisted of a girl having a fatal accident at it. The builder said he’s been bothered by the cross talk of ‘that type of fence is dangerous, it’s how people get killed’ and ‘now I’m hiring you to build that type of fence’.

So there’s our sport in a nutshell.

This is nothing new. I recall flat tables being a problem – ‘problem’ in this case means riders were getting killed at them – in the mid-1990s, and that flat tables were supposed to go the way of the flat earth theory.

That didn’t happen, did it?[/QUOTE]

So, has your friend decided not to build this jump for the safety of the sport?

[JER]

[QUOTE=Littleluck55;8852472]
So, has your friend decided not to build this jump for the safety of the sport?[/QUOTE]

As with many workplace issues, this is a more complex situation than you might realize.

While it’s easy for you to type a sentence like the one above, it’s not so easy – nor is it always advisable or effective – to position yourself as a refusenik in a workplace situation made up of a more nuanced chain of relationships and interdependencies.

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8845548]
They already know frangible pins hardly work half the time.[/QUOTE]

I am unclear about this point. There were statistics that showed that fences with frangible pins were more likely to cause falls, but they did not identify types of falls, or whether the pins worked correctly. If the FPs are preventing rotational falls and serious injuries, aren’t they doing their job?

At Plantation yesterday, there were several “tripped” FPs (at least 4; I didn’t keep count) in the 2* and 3*. The penalties don’t show up in the scores, so they must have all been associated with RFs or Rs (there weren’t any horse falls). I assume the FEI keeps track?

The only injury (that I am aware of) was Buck’s, which was an RF which released the FP. I am pretty sure it was this jump (I couldn’t see from my vantage point, but based on where it was on the course and the fact that it was pinned):
http://cdn.eventingnation.com/eventingnation.com/images/2016/09/Plantation-Field-CIC3-Course-Walk-7833.jpg

This is an open, square oxer–aren’t these also on the dangerous, hard to read list (and Buck was on a very experienced horse)? But you can’t say the FP didn’t do it’s job, since the horse didn’t fall, and, at least from what I’ve heard to date, Buck walked away with “only” a broken collarbone.

Of course this is only a handful of jumps, but I would like to see statistics on FPs and injuries, and of course FPs and rotational falls. I wouldn’t say based on the information out there (that I am aware of) that they aren’t doing their job.

[vineyridge]

There is a new type of padded hurdle jump being trialed in the UK. It’s solid, no brush, and it is black rimmed with orange. It looks nothing at all like the traditional hurdle.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/one-fit-innovative-hurdle-trial-extended-596491
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/one-fit-hurdle-taunton-racecourse-462121

At least they willing to try it.

Instead of the haphazard way eventing reacts to safety questions, in years when there are no games of any kind planned, why not devote that year to safety innovation? See if different colors or paint or different types of ground lines, or new types of jumps make a difference in the fall rates.

On the photo of the jump that Buck may have fallen at, it is an open square oxer that does not appear to have a back log that is higher than the front log. To my eye it looks like a simple vertical. Might a horse not see it that way? (I do recognize that photos can be deceiving)

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8852735]
I am unclear about this point. There were statistics that showed that fences with frangible pins were more likely to cause falls, but they did not identify types of falls, or whether the pins worked correctly. If the FPs are preventing rotational falls and serious injuries, aren’t they doing their job?

At Plantation yesterday, there were several “tripped” FPs (at least 4; I didn’t keep count) in the 2* and 3*. The penalties don’t show up in the scores, so they must have all been associated with RFs or Rs (there weren’t any horse falls). I assume the FEI keeps track?

The only injury (that I am aware of) was Buck’s, which was an RF which released the FP. I am pretty sure it was this jump (I couldn’t see from my vantage point, but based on where it was on the course and the fact that it was pinned):
http://cdn.eventingnation.com/eventingnation.com/images/2016/09/Plantation-Field-CIC3-Course-Walk-7833.jpg

This is an open, square oxer–aren’t these also on the dangerous, hard to read list (and Buck was on a very experienced horse)? But you can’t say the FP didn’t do it’s job, since the horse didn’t fall, and, at least from what I’ve heard to date, Buck walked away with “only” a broken collarbone.

Of course this is only a handful of jumps, but I would like to see statistics on FPs and injuries, and of course FPs and rotational falls. I wouldn’t say based on the information out there (that I am aware of) that they aren’t doing their job.[/QUOTE]

From what I have been seeing, a lot of the RFs were happening at fences with FPs yet they weren’t releasing.

[vineyridge]

Honestly, RFs don’t really bother me nearly as much as horse falls, and it’s rotational horse falls that frangible pins are targeted to prevent. Sounds as if the frangible pins are working if the only result of a hard knock is a rider fall.

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8853225]
From what I have been seeing, a lot of the RFs were happening at fences with FPs yet they weren’t releasing.[/QUOTE]

It would be interesting to be able to see when FPs released at a fence, since it doesn’t always show up in the scores.