WTF Are We Doing?

[JP60]

[QUOTE=JER;8882362]
Our collective hearts ache and break an awful lot in this sport. Our thoughts are so often with ‘the connections’ or ‘those who knew him/her/horse’. We are ‘devastated’ on a regular basis, as if devastation is something that clears up quickly and then just as quickly returns.

This is what passes for routine in the sport of eventing. Why do we want this in our lives?[/QUOTE]
These were my thoughts this morning when I read the news. Since I have no connections though my heart aches for the loss of another horse, my next thought was, what happened? I tried to see if there was even a “it occured at fence so and so” and what I found was this instead

@found on Internet

…do keep it in perspective… like road accidents life will always have some shortened life through death occurrences whether we like it or not even if precautions are taken. The horse world are very aware of making events as safe as possible, The fact is often people have no choice in such matters its unexplainable its God’s way so to speak. As farmers and horticulturists say "When there is live stock or live plants there is dead stock and or dead plants unfortunately "… thats life in reality !

Surely we can extend such wisdom to the human equation. Where there are living people there are dead people…so why bother talking about it, investigating it, fixing it, hey people sometimes just die.

Samsung yanked millions of Galaxy S7 Note devices, at the cost of millions of dollars because a few, for reasons we cannot explain yet, blew up and caught fire. They immediately got banned on airplanes in cargo holds and Samsung had to spend millions more to try and correct the problem.

The leaders of Eventing have had more then a few “batteries” blow up, they had lives lost and yet the attitude of “shit happens” still takes precedence over dissemination of information, investigation, prevention, and correction.

That post remarks that the horse world are very aware of making events safe as possible, but were that true, why is one of the premiere course designers almost bragging that he wants riders to fear the fence to then respect the fence. Why is it that even types of fences known to be more accident prone are not removed or altered. Why is this sport not transparent in its safety actions.

For every, and I mean every aviation incident or accident the NTSB produces and makes available to the public their investigation and possible causes. In doing so they hope that people reading will start to not make the same mistakes, avoid the same decisions and as a past pilot, flying airplanes is just as unique per pilot and plane as horses and riders.

From my seat, the “horse world” is not all that interested in making events safer.

[frugalannie]

While I feel and share your frustration and concern, JP60, the bottom line is the “n”: the number of people involved. Samsung had to recall millions of phones because millions of people were at risk. In the example of pilot error, it’s not just the pilot and his plane that are involved. There is generally a crew, passengers and potentially more people on the ground. Even the solo Cessna can crash into homes and may be the “canary in the coal mine” illuminating a problem that could occur in any flight situation.

There just aren’t that many eventers, and when things go tragically wrong, there is one person and one horse involved per incident.

Please do not take this to mean that accidents and near incidents shouldn’t be studied fully, findings made public and changes made. Just trying to keep the comparisons to similar situations. And FWIW, I strongly believe that making the XC portion of the competition more jumping plus endurance and less twisty-turny maximum and unforgiving obstacle course.

[Sticky_Situation]

Was there any mention of the type of obstacle the fall occurred at?

[Littleluck55]

[QUOTE=JP60;8882600]
These were my thoughts this morning when I read the news. Since I have no connections though my heart aches for the loss of another horse, my next thought was, what happened? I tried to see if there was even a “it occured at fence so and so” and what I found was this instead

Surely we can extend such wisdom to the human equation. Where there are living people there are dead people…so why bother talking about it, investigating it, fixing it, hey people sometimes just die.

Samsung yanked millions of Galaxy S7 Note devices, at the cost of millions of dollars because a few, for reasons we cannot explain yet, blew up and caught fire. They immediately got banned on airplanes in cargo holds and Samsung had to spend millions more to try and correct the problem.

The leaders of Eventing have had more then a few “batteries” blow up, they had lives lost and yet the attitude of “shit happens” still takes precedence over dissemination of information, investigation, prevention, and correction.

That post remarks that the horse world are very aware of making events safe as possible, but were that true, why is one of the premiere course designers almost bragging that he wants riders to fear the fence to then respect the fence. Why is it that even types of fences known to be more accident prone are not removed or altered. Why is this sport not transparent in its safety actions.

For every, and I mean every aviation incident or accident the NTSB produces and makes available to the public their investigation and possible causes. In doing so they hope that people reading will start to not make the same mistakes, avoid the same decisions and as a past pilot, flying airplanes is just as unique per pilot and plane as horses and riders.

From my seat, the “horse world” is not all that interested in making events safer.[/QUOTE]

Which news article posted your quoted statement?

[vineyridge]

Maybe it will make y’all feel a bit better to learn that two people in the past month have died from falls showjumping. One Brit and the Lithuanian showjumping champion.

I’m waiting for the showjumpers to start this sort of conversation.

[caevent]

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8882666]
Was there any mention of the type of obstacle the fall occurred at?[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t reported, but I was there. It was at a table in the middle of the course off of a long gallop stretch

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=caevent;8882714]
It wasn’t reported, but I was there. It was at a table in the middle of the course off of a long gallop stretch[/QUOTE]

Thanks, caevent.

That makes me think again about the comments by a course designer that were linked earlier on this thread about tables … [paraphrasing] how most modern courses have very upright-faced tables as a “safety feature” because making the fences less forgiving will make riders set up for them more and therefore make horses jump them better/more safely. I don’t think that logic works, and I think a lot of the bad accidents that have happened in the last several years are evidence that it doesn’t.

I do realize course designers are in a tough position especially with the loss of the old long format … the courses need to be a challenge, and if everyone gets around without issue then people bitch that it’s a dressage show … but they still need to keep safety a priority. I don’t think that these courses that have upright-faced max width table after upright-faced max width table are making things safer in any way. I wouldn’t even necessarily say wide, upright tables need to be done away with altogether … but maybe have 1 or 2 such fences on a course instead of 40% of the total obstacles.

Was the change over to upright-faced jumps from the more sloping ones of the 90s - early 2000s based on actual evidence that they were causing more accidents by encouraging careless riding? Also, riders should be discouraged from being too careless by receiving a DR when appropriate.

[JER]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8882704]
Maybe it will make y’all feel a bit better to learn that two people in the past month have died from falls showjumping. One Brit and the Lithuanian showjumping champion. [/QUOTE]

Also the rider death at HITS Saugerties, which may have been in August.

But yeah, doesn’t that make us feel better? We’re not the only ones getting killed!

I feel so good now I think I’ll go find some open corners and flat tables to jump.

[Anonymoose]

[QUOTE=JER;8882362]
Our collective hearts ache and break an awful lot in this sport. Our thoughts are so often with ‘the connections’ or ‘those who knew him/her/horse’. We are ‘devastated’ on a regular basis, as if devastation is something that clears up quickly and then just as quickly returns.

This is what passes for routine in the sport of eventing. Why do we want this in our lives?[/QUOTE]

Your post reminds me of a place I lived for several years, where certain areas of town were routinely devastated by tornado damage. Yet people kept returning to their neighborhoods and rebuilding, only to have it happen again another year.

How do we come to accept devastation as something we clear up quickly only to be subjected to it again? Those who survive, that is? It is one thing to return to one’s home and rebuild. But maybe efforts should be made to rebuid – rethink – the sport of eventing? I don’t presume to suggest how, just that maybe it should be rebuilt on a different model?

[LogansLuv]

I think it’s called “Insanity”. Isn’t eventing’s motto “Red on the right ; white on the left and insanity in the middle”? When your ULRs admit that the margin for error is razor thin, every few months or so a horse or rider dies; the collective community has the same convo; and the PTB make some feel good change all expecting a different result it’s time to call this pure and simple insanity. Examine yourselves…how many of you compete or spectate thinking somewhere in the back of your mind I hope no one dies today. WTF? Seriously!!!

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=JER;8882774]
Also the rider death at HITS Saugerties, which may have been in August.

But yeah, doesn’t that make us feel better? We’re not the only ones getting killed!

I feel so good now I think I’ll go find some open corners and flat tables to jump.[/QUOTE]

Or drive on the Connecticut Turnpike–the odds of biting it are so much HIGHER!

[Caol_Ila]

I was spectating an event a few years ago in Scotland. It had up to CIC*** classes but the incident in question was during an Intermediate class. Myself and my friend spent a little while watching horses negotiate a downhill stretch, then a jump made up of huge logs lying sideways in a W formation, with the points of the W facing the oncoming horses, and a ditch in front of it. Several people had issues at this jump.

A horse galloped down the hill, didn’t like the look of this fence, and tried to stop, losing all impulsion. Rider used his crop to send the horse over it anyway. Horse lurched over the jump, hitting it with his hindlegs and there was a terrible crack, then the horse cantering off on three legs with one hindleg flapping like it was made of rubber. Myself, my friend, the jump judge, and a few other spectators all screamed, “Stop!!” Rider pulled up, saying, “Is he okay?” We all yelled, “No!”

Some time later that day, I was in the queue at the coffee van and overheard a couple riders, who were in the queue behind me, chatting about the horse who broke its leg at fence whatever. I said I’d seen it happen and asked after the horse. They said it had been put down.

“That’s very sad,” I commented.

The rider shrugged and replied, “That’s the sport.”

That was even sadder – that attrition is accepted, by at least some participants.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Littleluck55;8882688]
Which news article posted your quoted statement?[/QUOTE]
Eventing Nation. Leaving out the name since EN requires real names. However, one can read it there if they wish.

ETA: As sticky mentions, this was a comment from the article, not from Eventing Nation directly.

[Sticky_Situation]

Perhaps a few of the riders at the upper levels see their horses as expendable, but I don’t feel it’s fair to apply that as a blanket statement across the board. Go back and read Liz Halliday-Sharp’s statement and tell me that she did not love and care for HHS Cooley.

Just because a person doesn’t immediately walk away from the sport or vow to never again compete above Training doesn’t mean they are bad horsemen or see their horses as expendable sporting props. People deal with loss in different ways.

I too would like to see more action, not just lip service from governing associations and rationalization from course designers, toward making courses safer. But I just don’t see how condemning all upper level eventers as a bunch of callous, uncaring individuals that throw their horses away like broken toys is in any way productive.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=JP60;8884501]
Eventing Nation. Leaving out the name since EN requires real names. However, one can read it there if they wish.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, if I’m not mistaken it was a comment somebody posted to an article, not a statement from EN themselves.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8882644]
While I feel and share your frustration and concern, JP60, the bottom line is the “n”: the number of people involved. Samsung had to recall millions of phones because millions of people were at risk. In the example of pilot error, it’s not just the pilot and his plane that are involved. There is generally a crew, passengers and potentially more people on the ground. Even the solo Cessna can crash into homes and may be the “canary in the coal mine” illuminating a problem that could occur in any flight situation.

There just aren’t that many eventers, and when things go tragically wrong, there is one person and one horse involved per incident.

Please do not take this to mean that accidents and near incidents shouldn’t be studied fully, findings made public and changes made. Just trying to keep the comparisons to similar situations. And FWIW, I strongly believe that making the XC portion of the competition more jumping plus endurance and less twisty-turny maximum and unforgiving obstacle course.[/QUOTE]
With respect, in concept the examples are similar. I positioned my thoughts in a present tense but looking at future goals. In the case of Samsung, millions were not already impacted, the potential of a percentage of people may have been. They made a call based on future possibilities. Regarding the NTSB, their investigations may deal with the current incident, but their report is meant to help reduce the potential for future similar accidents to occur from major airliner to that solo pilot in his one plane.

Granted, Eventing is one rider, one horse…opps one rider many horses these days, but were an accident investigated, a conclusion made, then the potential to help many more one rider, one horse or multiple horses might save a life or prevent serious injury. The point of transparency and the purpose of investigation and reporting. Not so we, the community can morbidly look on and go tsk ts tsk, not for us to blame or look down (though some will as imperfect humans), but so our Sport is honest about the risks, takes ownership of the risks so they can be honest about the main point of the Mission statement, “the welfare of the horse”.

I believe we’ve had two major incidences relating to wide, flat tables, do we need a third point, re death, to then say they are bad, or do we perhaps say, replace that with something just as imposing, but built such it allows a mistake without death or serious injury. It’s already been suggested that xc could be lengthened, the OT changed, scoring adjusted such that penalties could be awarded for under OT as we as above which then stops it being dressage test show, but one that respects endurance. As it is, lately not many are making time at the ULs and many of these accidents are happening not in technical questions, but single fences or simple combos.

People talk about wanting data to allow for “better” decisions, but it is hard to do that when there is no mechanism currently in place to truly investigate, report, and conclude what happens now. One change, right now that may not stop a death tomorrow, but can start to bring about accountability is to require an NTSB like group to investigate anytime there is a death, horse or rider, or serious injury and report the findings. Why would we be fearful of such a requirement.

[JER]

At the very least, we should be able to face up to what’s happening and what we’re doing.

This is the Woodside press release:

It is with great sadness that we announce that TF Kreisler, ridden and owned by Sara Sellmer passed away due to an incident on Cross-Country during the CIC3*.

Passed away.

This is how we talk about a horse that was either (1) killed in an accident or (2) suffered fatal injuries in an accident and had to be euthanized?

We should at least have the guts to use plain language. If we’re going to take our horses out there, if we’re going to host these competitions, if we’re going to build these courses, the very least we can do is be honest about it.

Please, don’t anyone respond with ‘oh but we want to be sensitive to the connections blahblahblah…’. I don’t care. I’ve been those connections. A dark time like that is no time for euphemism or a lack of honesty in our community or any form of pretense that’s what’s happening is somehow palatable to us.

[frugalannie]

JP60, I’m on the same page with you, truly. There have been many threads on this forum about accidents, fatal and otherwise, that have reasonably suggested an investigative committee, format and consistent data collection. Posters with skills in pertinent areas have offered their services. And yet…still looking for it.

Caol Ita, your description of the incident in Scotland reminded me of a competition at Ledyard when Neil Ayer was in charge and designed the course. There was a fence set in a swale that sounds much like what you described: a running “W” of logs set over a ditch at Advanced height. Riders chose where to jump the line: with the point towards them (near side of ditch), away from them (far side of ditch) or over the angle in between (right over the ditch). As I recall, some horses made it over, but one started take off, hind legs slipped on the lip of the ditch and the horse’s belly slammed into the log. Horse died almost immediately from a ruptured spleen. Neil’s response was to instantly take the fence off course and never use it again and he was shattered that it had happened.

I’m not saying that course designers now don’t care and aren’t gutted by fatalities on course, but something has certainly changed.

[Highflyer]

Just to note, we do in fact have at least the investigative portion in place-- I know someone who served on the investigative committee after Philippa Humphries died and they examined the fence and reviewed all available photos/ video as well as speaking with the fence judges. I have no idea what the FEI did with those findings though (probably nothing).

[Sticky_Situation]

Does anyone happen to know how much data collection is done on falls in competition that don’t result in serious injury or horse/rider fatality?

I would argue that as much information should be collected as possible any time there’s a MR, or at the very least a rotational fall… Level, horse/rider experience, type of obstacle, weather/ground conditions, etc. That would result in a much larger cohort of data and therefore much more statistical significance to any trends than if only data from actual catastrophic accidents is analyzed.

I honestly don’t know what if any information is collected now, but if this was done over a few seasons I’d bet some clear trends would arise that could help guide safer course design. It should be straightforward enough to have an official fill out a form with the pertinent information when a MR happens and send it in.