WTF Are We Doing?

[JER]

@LAZ

Another part of this is evolving course building and design so that mistakes don’t cause injury or death. There has actually been a lot done on this in the last 10 years and it continues to progress. More funds would help it progress faster—

Agreed on the first part. Look at the Grand National and what they’ve done with plastic core fences. Since these were put in at Aintree, the GN has seen no horse fatalities. These jumps are the product of a multiyear R&D program funded mostly by the British Horseracing Authority.

Now on the ‘more funds’ part: what’s actually going to make it progress faster is the governing bodies making it a priority and either funding it or getting it funded by one of their illustrious ‘partners’.

As IFG pointed out, real research is expensive. The FEI has loads of money and loads of ‘partners’. The idea that the grassroots has to bakesale their way to safety is both ludicrous and wrong-headed.

Or to illustrate it another way: If the IOC came to the FEI tomorrow and said ‘Fix these deaths in eventing or we’re kicking the FEI out of the Olympics’, then safety would be a priority and the money would be there. Right now, it’s just not their priority.

[Jealoushe]

welll if you took the money for Art, Emily Kings horse, and Polaris…that would be what? $600K (UK pounds)??

That would be a good start. Perhaps riders can start campaigning for eventing safety funds the way they do for their horses…Would be nice if some BNRs stepped up to the plate on that one.

[JER]

@Jealoushe

welll if you took the money for Art, Emily Kings horse, and Polaris…that would be what? $600K (UK pounds)?

But again, the resources are there. The FEI and other governing bodies have the resources. It’s the allocation of those resources that’s the problem.

And if the governing bodies aren’t a stakeholder in the R&D, then what? You’d present the evidence and - especially if it goes against the prevailing FEI concepts of eventing (money, rich people, elite sponsors, shorter XC) - they’d do nothing.

[LAZ]

@JER

Agreed on the first part. Look at the Grand National and what they’ve done with plastic core fences. Since these were put in at Aintree, the GN has seen no horse fatalities. These jumps are the product of a multiyear R&D program funded mostly by the British Horseracing Authority.

Now on the ‘more funds’ part: what’s actually going to make it progress faster is the governing bodies making it a priority and either funding it or getting it funded by one of their illustrious ‘partners’.

As IFG pointed out, real research is expensive. The FEI has loads of money and loads of ‘partners’. The idea that the grassroots has to bakesale their way to safety is both ludicrous and wrong-headed.

Or to illustrate it another way: If the IOC came to the FEI tomorrow and said ‘Fix these deaths in eventing or we’re kicking the FEI out of the Olympics’, then safety would be a priority and the money would be there. Right now, it’s just not their priority.

This feels a little dismissive to me (and snarky, to tell the truth).

I’m not advocating anyone has to “bake sale their way” to supporting change. I’m saying if you put your money where your mouth is change is more likely to happen than if all you do is open your mouth. I’m saying that we all bear responsibility for caring for our sport and keeping it healthy.

Perhaps the FEI has more money than they know what to do with and can put it anywhere (This is something I am not in the know about), but I know the USEA doesn’t have a plethora of disposable funds. I was speaking about supporting the program that is within the USEA. I have found it to be a worthwhile program that is underfunded and is trying to better the safety of the sport. Your experience may be different, but that’s mine.

[JER]

@LAZ

This feels a little dismissive to me (and snarky, to tell the truth).

We happen to have a fundamental disagreement on this topic. My intention isn’t to be dismissive or ‘snarky’, as you put it, but I disagree with your thinking on this particular subtopic of safety. Before you dismiss that as ‘dismissive’, the question you might consider is why - as I stated most clearly in my first post - I’m here for the purpose of discussion.

@LAZ

I’m not advocating anyone has to “bake sale their way” to supporting change. I’m saying if you put your money where your mouth is change is more likely to happen than if all you do is open your mouth. I’m saying that we all bear responsibility for caring for our sport and keeping it healthy.

Very well then. But here, I disagree with you. Outcry does spur NSFs and ISFs into action. While the result may have been weaker than hoped, we have the very recent example of public outcry and outrage over the Bloody Marilyn and Oliver Townend abuse incidents leading to an FEI rule change with the span of a couple of months.

To my knowledge, no funds were solicited to study whips or bloody mouths during that time. The rule changed happened because the public opened their mouths on the subject.

@LAZ

I know the USEA doesn’t have a plethora of disposable funds. I was speaking about supporting the program that is within the USEA.

The USEA is an organization with no power. It is not an NSF or an ISF. It is a ‘is a non-profit 501 C (3), educational organization committed to providing eventing enthusiasts with a competitive level suited to their individual skills.’ The USEA is not the governing body for eventing in the US and has no relation to the FEI.

This is in contrast to an organization like British Eventing, which is the NSF for eventing in the UK. The USEA doesn’t make the rules - that’s the job of the USEF, which is the NSF.

Serious change for a safer sport isn’t going to happen by small donations to USEA.

[LAZ]

@JER

th

Very well then. But here, I disagree with you. Outcry does spur NSFs and ISFs into action. While the result may have been weaker than hoped, we have the very recent example of public outcry and outrage over the Bloody Marilyn and Oliver Townend abuse incidents leading to an FEI rule change with the span of a couple of months.

To my knowledge, no funds were solicited to study whips or bloody mouths during that time. The rule changed happened because the public opened their mouths on the subject.

The USEA is an organization with no power. It is not an NSF or an ISF. It is a ‘is a non-profit 501 C (3), educational organization committed to providing eventing enthusiasts with a competitive level suited to their individual skills.’ The USEA is not the governing body for eventing in the US and has no relation to the FEI.

This is in contrast to an organization like British Eventing, which is the NSF for eventing in the UK. The USEA doesn’t make the rules - that’s the job of the USEF, which is the NSF.

Serious change for a safer sport isn’t going to happen by small donations to USEA.

I would say that it is a heck of a lot easier/less complex to make rules about the use of whips and blood, though I would also say that those rules also have some things that make me ponder. Hitting a horse should always either be for encouragement or for correction. If a rider consistently has a horse with blood it should be addressed. I know a curly horse that has the most ridiculously sensitive skin. He gets rubs from everything—bits, nosebands, leg guards, riding boots. His rider constantly changes tack on him to attempt to avoid it but he still gets rubs. There is no abuse, unless riding him at all constitutes abuse (this is an intermediate horse).

Thank you for the primer on national and international federations. I regularly explain to people that our rules are not USEA rules, but USEF rules.

I still believe in, and support the USEA’s efforts and commitment to improving safety in our sport, both with fence construction and health studies for horses. I will always encourage people to contribute in a concrete manner rather than just natterig on public media. I recognize that you, yourself, have expertise in many areas and you can choose to support your cause however. I would encourage anyone who sits on a horse and cares about the future to contribute in some meaningful way to keep horse sports alive and healthy.

[JER]

@LAZ

Thank you for the primer on national and international federations. I regularly explain to people that our rules are not USEA rules, but USEF rules.

I know you know that. If you can suspend your negative attitude toward me (which has persisted for years) for even just a few moments, you might understand that I was saying that for the benefit of the wider discussion group on this thread. As you state yourself, the various orgs and their functions are not well understood by all in the eventing community.

@LAZ

I still believe in, and support the USEA’s efforts and commitment to improving safety in our sport, both with fence construction and health studies for horses. I will always encourage people to contribute in a concrete manner rather than just natterig on public media.

‘Nattering’. Not a very positive term. Is this how you characterize this very long, very detailed thread with a large number of participants over several years?

@LAZ

I would encourage anyone who sits on a horse and cares about the future to contribute in some meaningful way to keep horse sports alive and healthy.

And there are meaningful ways other than contributing $100 to a cause that you support. That’s your cause but that’s far from the only way to move eventing safety in a positive direction.

[LAZ]

@JER

‘Nattering’. Not a very positive term. Is this how you characterize this very long, very detailed thread with a large number of participants over several years?

And there are meaningful ways other than contributing $100 to a cause that you support. That’s your cause but that’s far from the only way to move eventing safety in a positive direction.

Natter: idle chatter or conversation.
For the people who are actively contributing to a solution, be it with financial support, research that is pertinent to the research groups, or education of riders/horses to be safer, etc it doesn’t apply. To those that just post on social media I’d say it’s appropriate…

My point, JER, is that for most people, their best bet to improve the sport is actually to hands on, do something for the sport. If every post on this thread was worth $5 the donation would be pretty impressive. On the schooling days that I’ve run as fundraisers (I split fees half and half, half for my farm, half for the frangible research)I encourage people to add a little more on and that all goes to the frangible fund. It all adds up and it all helps. If the 100 people that have posted on this, wanted safer sport, raised $100 each it makes $10,000. That’s a useful chunk of change. You and I want the same thing; a safer sport. Everyone wants that. Ow it’s up to every person to find a way to concretely contribute to that end. Talk is cheap.

[Jealoushe]

@LAZ This thread has 135,966 views. I think it might be going a little further than a $5 donation.

[JER]

@LAZ

Talk is cheap.

We agree on this.

And that’s why talk has such a great ROI: communication builds consensus.

Consensus leads to change.

[Fergs]

There was a horse fatality at Millstreet today. I can’t tell from this article whether the fall caused the death, or the other way around: http://eventingnation.com/bgs-country-dreams-dies-on-cico3-cross-country-at-millstreet/

[Jealoushe]

Sad. RIP.

9th horse in 2018. More than 1 a month.

[vineyridge]

My bet is that he suffered a sudden cardiac event, and that caused him to fall. Wouldn’t the article have said if the horse was euthanized?

[ACMEeventing]

The last televised fence was, I believe, 4 fences from home. The pair looked really good all the way around, and came through that last water combination looking empty. The commentator even mentioned something about it. Sad to hear. Especially after he was the next horse to go after the terrifying ride by the frenchman that made me wish someone with a red flag would have waved it in his face.

[kt]

@ACMEeventing

The last televised fence was, I believe, 4 fences from home. The pair looked really good all the way around, and came through that last water combination looking empty. The commentator even mentioned something about it. Sad to hear. Especially after he was the next horse to go after the terrifying ride by the frenchman that made me wish someone with a red flag would have waved it in his face.

Honestly, the horse’s gallop looked a little labored to me even early in the course… just something about it. But maybe I was reading too much into it (?). By the end, the rider was really having to push hard to keep him going… I hope I’m wrong, but the horse did look pretty close to exhaustion.

[frugalannie]

Mommy peanut posted this link on the Racing Forum. I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this forum, on this subject (sort of). It’s from the American Farrier’s Journal, and studies causes of leg fractures and tendon ruptures. Probably all stuff we already know, but just in case.

​​​​​​https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/8259-why-equine-bones-break-and-tendons-rupture

[vineyridge]

@frugalannie

Mommy peanut posted this link on the Racing Forum. I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this forum, on this subject (sort of). It’s from the American Farrier’s Journal, and studies causes of leg fractures and tendon ruptures. Probably all stuff we already know, but just in case.

​​​​​​https://www.americanfarriers.com/art…endons-rupture

That is a very good and educational article that every horse person should read. It’s not just for farriers.

[lep]

This is interesting: https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2018/08/23/scientists-blood-test-racehorses-injury/

[BWP]

HHS Dassett Appeal was pts after Blair cci3* xc

[Jealoushe]

@BWP

HHS Dassett Appeal was pts after Blair cci3* xc

What? When was this…can you supply more info please.