[QUOTE=JER;8160235]
That’s really rude.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was funny. Lighten up. 
There is considerably more pressure on professional riders now than there was twenty years ago. We need to have good results at events to make a living, gain sponsership, sell horses, and gain clients. Entries are up at the winter events and now if you want to play with the big boys, you travel south which equals even more financial pressure.
We have to get owners and syndicate members to buy competitive horses. Riders have to listen to them when they tell us to run a horse thats not 100%or lose the ride. Some riders say no, some riders dont.
Ive watched more than one up and coming professional ride a lame horse to xc at a HT and have one of the scariest rides Ive seen at OI. She came off the course and thought it was wonderful. Ive since cut toes due to the nasty taste that was left in my mouth at watching this.
At the end of the day ive seen more shady bullcrap from UL riders and pros than I actually ever wanted to see. It comes from the will to win at all costs including the horse. Riders are desperate to get results to be competitive and in some cases it comes at a risk to horse and rider that they deem acceptable.
Is it right?, no. Does it happen? More than people would like to believe.
Dressage is a huge factor. Gone is the day that a horse can be near the back of the leader board after dressage and win after a double clear xc and sj. It doesnt happen any more. Long gone is the OTTB or backyard cross who beings you safely around a course. There are some, dont get me wrong, but instead riders are looking at WBs and ISHs. Many have to be imported, some found in the usa but all with a heavy price tag. Well the expense to win.
So then they spend double the time in the sandbox instead of taking thier horse xc schooling, they show jump. Also this horse is more than they can afford to begin with, so it doesnt hunt and learn to find distances and have a fifth leg and deal with footing. The horse show jumps in a groomed ring and gallops on a track and swims in a pool instead of doing trot sets and schooling.
So you have a horse who knows how to flat and show jump really well, but isnt exactly a xc horse. Also you bought a heavy horse with less tb blood which isnt going to help you late in the course when hes tired and cant save your behind when he gets a crap distance or when he hangs a leg. So glad you did that extra flat school instead of taking him xc or a conditioning ride, arent you now?
Money money money money money. The sport becomes more expensive in vet care, entry fees, horse blood, xc schooling, lessons, equipment, and everything else. You have to have money to play. You may sacrifice safety and morals to just get a bit more ahead. Owner wants dobbin to go do the 2* but hes not quite ready but the owner said. Or owner wants you to run dobbin when hes not quite 100% because hes 5th after dressage. Its a tough choice for some riders and sometimes they dont make the right choice for the horse or for them.
Keep fighting away at a horse who isnt confident at the level and has issues, but I need to have a horse going this level to be relevant. Bam accident.
So many factors, so many but at the end of the day, the pressure is extreme and the riders feel it. Some dont make a sound decision. Some make a welfare choice for the horse and get the animal yanked and are left with nothing. Gun shy the next time an owner tells them to run the horse, afraid they might lose the ride, they do it. Bam horse falls at fence on course.
Im not sure you can end it. I think it may be too deep of an issue to solve. We fundamentally changed the sport to give dressage and SJ ebough of a winning advantage that xc is thrown to the side. Well I can do grids instead doesnt exactly work. The training sessions for jumping are held over SJ fences not xc fences for the most part. Thats telling.
I dont want to die. Really I want to survive. Ive watched some nasty falls and some nasty near saves and at the end of the day Im a bit sick of it. I dont want to gasp so much watching xc that it sounds like Im in a perpetual state of suprise.
I dont want to see horses die. Ive seen enough, dont want to see more. Ive watched horses be put in situations where the rider gets them under a massive table and expects them to get over it safely. Well maybe you should have taught the horse to gallop out of stride instead of fighting before that fence and gunning at a distance that wasnt there?
What UL rider with an active and current UL career is calling for change? Im not talking Denny or Jimmy but the riders who contested the 3* at Fair Hill or Rolex or any major event. Where the heck are they? Any of them asking for change? Nope they arent. They are continuing this cycle and hoping its not going to be them. Its the LL riders and the AAs asking for change.
Not happening that way. Get Boyd and Phillip and Lainey and the Wills and Clark and Kim and Marylyn and Lauren to stand up for it and maybe youll have a voice but until then its nothing. It has no voice thats powerful enough to make change.
I wrote this with US riders in mind even though I realize this is a global issue that is a problem for all eventers not just Americans. I also typed it on my phone so sorry for grammer, spelling and lack of sense in places.
Love that post.
Update from JP. She says it was NOT a rotational fall, and that her airvest did not deploy.
http://eventingconnect.today/2015/05/21/jessica-phoenix-left-the-hospital-today-and-is-finally-home/
[QUOTE=FLeventer;8160521]
There is considerably more pressure on professional riders now than there was twenty years ago. We need to have good results at events to make a living, gain sponsership, sell horses, and gain clients. Entries are up at the winter events and now if you want to play with the big boys, you travel south which equals even more financial pressure.
We have to get owners and syndicate members to buy competitive horses. Riders have to listen to them when they tell us to run a horse thats not 100%or lose the ride. Some riders say no, some riders dont.
Ive watched more than one up and coming professional ride a lame horse to xc at a HT and have one of the scariest rides Ive seen at OI. She came off the course and thought it was wonderful. Ive since cut toes due to the nasty taste that was left in my mouth at watching this.
At the end of the day ive seen more shady bullcrap from UL riders and pros than I actually ever wanted to see. It comes from the will to win at all costs including the horse. Riders are desperate to get results to be competitive and in some cases it comes at a risk to horse and rider that they deem acceptable.
Is it right?, no. Does it happen? More than people would like to believe.
Dressage is a huge factor. Gone is the day that a horse can be near the back of the leader board after dressage and win after a double clear xc and sj. It doesnt happen any more. Long gone is the OTTB or backyard cross who beings you safely around a course. There are some, dont get me wrong, but instead riders are looking at WBs and ISHs. Many have to be imported, some found in the usa but all with a heavy price tag. Well the expense to win.
So then they spend double the time in the sandbox instead of taking thier horse xc schooling, they show jump. Also this horse is more than they can afford to begin with, so it doesnt hunt and learn to find distances and have a fifth leg and deal with footing. The horse show jumps in a groomed ring and gallops on a track and swims in a pool instead of doing trot sets and schooling.
So you have a horse who knows how to flat and show jump really well, but isnt exactly a xc horse. Also you bought a heavy horse with less tb blood which isnt going to help you late in the course when hes tired and cant save your behind when he gets a crap distance or when he hangs a leg. So glad you did that extra flat school instead of taking him xc or a conditioning ride, arent you now?
Money money money money money. The sport becomes more expensive in vet care, entry fees, horse blood, xc schooling, lessons, equipment, and everything else. You have to have money to play. You may sacrifice safety and morals to just get a bit more ahead. Owner wants dobbin to go do the 2* but hes not quite ready but the owner said. Or owner wants you to run dobbin when hes not quite 100% because hes 5th after dressage. Its a tough choice for some riders and sometimes they dont make the right choice for the horse or for them.
Keep fighting away at a horse who isnt confident at the level and has issues, but I need to have a horse going this level to be relevant. Bam accident.
So many factors, so many but at the end of the day, the pressure is extreme and the riders feel it. Some dont make a sound decision. Some make a welfare choice for the horse and get the animal yanked and are left with nothing. Gun shy the next time an owner tells them to run the horse, afraid they might lose the ride, they do it. Bam horse falls at fence on course.
Im not sure you can end it. I think it may be too deep of an issue to solve. We fundamentally changed the sport to give dressage and SJ ebough of a winning advantage that xc is thrown to the side. Well I can do grids instead doesnt exactly work. The training sessions for jumping are held over SJ fences not xc fences for the most part. Thats telling.
I dont want to die. Really I want to survive. Ive watched some nasty falls and some nasty near saves and at the end of the day Im a bit sick of it. I dont want to gasp so much watching xc that it sounds like Im in a perpetual state of suprise.
I dont want to see horses die. Ive seen enough, dont want to see more. Ive watched horses be put in situations where the rider gets them under a massive table and expects them to get over it safely. Well maybe you should have taught the horse to gallop out of stride instead of fighting before that fence and gunning at a distance that wasnt there?
What UL rider with an active and current UL career is calling for change? Im not talking Denny or Jimmy but the riders who contested the 3* at Fair Hill or Rolex or any major event. Where the heck are they? Any of them asking for change? Nope they arent. They are continuing this cycle and hoping its not going to be them. Its the LL riders and the AAs asking for change.
Not happening that way. Get Boyd and Phillip and Lainey and the Wills and Clark and Kim and Marylyn and Lauren to stand up for it and maybe youll have a voice but until then its nothing. It has no voice thats powerful enough to make change.
I wrote this with US riders in mind even though I realize this is a global issue that is a problem for all eventers not just Americans. I also typed it on my phone so sorry for grammer, spelling and lack of sense in places.[/QUOTE]
Well stated.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8159915]
Another horse has died following a CCI3* in New Zealand.
I wonder too about falls. For example JP fell at Rolex then again at Jersey FREsh just a few weeks later. Related? Maybe, maybe not.[/QUOTE]
I believe that there was a BE study years back that found that horses that fell once were more likely to (and actually did) fall again, sometimes multiple times. I believe it was done after Ollie T had several falls with the same horse, or around that time. I will see if I can find it when I have more time to search.
Are there any rules on rider falls? Like 2 falls and you have to downgrade, or something like that?
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8160762]
Are there any rules on rider falls? Like 2 falls and you have to downgrade, or something like that?[/QUOTE]
There was at one time, but I don’t know if it was FEI or just nationally, and I don’t know if it is still in effect. I do remember a rider or 2 that had to miss Rolex one year because they had to re-qualify at the level due to falls.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8160709]
Love that post.
Update from JP. She says it was NOT a rotational fall, and that her airvest did not deploy.
So her air vest didn’t deploy BEFORE she hit the ground.
But is she saying that it did not deploy AFTER? Presumably her horse stood up, and therefore broke the lanyard, which would have caused inflation.
Or is it the case that the vest failed to deploy despite the lanyard being broken?
The sudden, rapid inflation of an air vest post-impact could adversely impact rib fractures and internal injuries. I say ‘could’ because there are other parallels in mechanisms of injury and emergency medicine, and the air bag vendors have failed to provide evidence in this regard.
If the vest didn’t deploy at all, was it defective in some way? Does anyone know the failure rate of a Point Two. Someone posted that there were 3 malfunction incidents at Badminton, which, if typical, would indicate a significant rate of failure.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8160762]
Are there any rules on rider falls? Like 2 falls and you have to downgrade, or something like that?[/QUOTE]
Horse and rider combo, of the horse has 3 Es or RFs or MRs within a calendar year on xc then you have to step back a level. Not sure if you have to fully requalify for the level or just complete one event at the level below. This is at a HT not FEI. Not sure FEI rules, but I know they are similar.
Phillip got in an issue with this on one of his horses. This was the year of the famous drop into water that knocked out half the division at plantation I want to say? The ground jury changed the MRs on record to TEs or something and the horse stayed qualified even with previous trouble on record.
Good friend of mine had trouble bumping up to prelim with a rider fall and two eliminations at the water fence. She had to step back to training. She did a couple of trainings before bumping back up but I think it was more for horses confidence then having to requalify.
Thanks for the info.
Just to add to the discussion, Hit Air posted something the other night about a rider with a fractured spine and how she didn’t have an air vest on - but if she had, she could have prevented the fall. Its on their FB site. This is the type of thing that is NOT HELPING the safety of our sport. I wish helmet and vest manufacturers has advertisement limits by law like cigarette companies do.
The owner of Tipperary reported to Eventing Connect that they NEVER pay riders to use their products, because they want them to speak for themselves. The man is a class act in that interview.
That is not just a matter of not helping (the Hit Air claim) that is false advertising and they could be sanctioned by the FTC for that
[QUOTE=FLeventer;8160825]
Phillip got in an issue with this on one of his horses. This was the year of the famous drop into water that knocked out half the division at plantation I want to say? The ground jury changed the MRs on record to TEs or something and the horse stayed qualified even with previous trouble on record.[/QUOTE]
This would be an indicator of a culture of indifference.
[QUOTE=JER;8160950]
This would be an indicator of a culture of indifference.[/QUOTE]
There certainly was a lot of talk about it at the time, but IIRC, the MRs were turned to TEs because the fence was taken off the course partway through the division in response to the problems. Because the fence was removed in response to the falls, and not all horses had to jump it, I believe they felt this was the best way to handle the situation fairly.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8160762]
Are there any rules on rider falls? Like 2 falls and you have to downgrade, or something like that?[/QUOTE] Under U.S. rules for horse trials, EV105.2:
2. LOSS OF QUALIFICATION. (Preliminary Level and up)
In cases cited in EV105.3, only penalties assessed during the cross-country phase of competition apply.
a. A horse that is eliminated, for disobediences in the cross-country phase of competition, three times within any 12 month period loses its qualification to compete at the higher level at which the elimination occurs.
b. A horse that falls in the cross-country phase of competition 2 times in any 12 month period loses its qualification to compete at the higher level at which a fall occurs.
c. A rider who falls in the cross-country phase of competition from the same horse 3 times in any 12 month period will cause the horse to lose its qualification to compete at the higher level at which a fall occurs.
d. Having lost qualification, a horse may be re-established by achieving 2 QRs at the next lower height level (e.g., loss of qualification at the CCI2* level requires re-qualification at the Preliminary Level) within any 6 month period and no sooner than one month following the loss of qualification.
e. Any combination of occurrences in .a, .b, or .c above for a total of 3 occurrences will result in loss of qualification.
All the rules are available to the public at http://useventing.com/rules-safety/rules
I think human nature as it is means if you compete at the top of a sport-- you might not have a tendency to focus on the inherent danger of that sport and hence what can be controlled and changed outide your immediate hands (ie.e outside of your own preparedness) because of the fear and confidence factor which can cause its own issues.
Different sport, but I remember a famous olympic high diver refusing to watch the replays of himself hitting his head on the board. He did not systematically figure out what went wrong…
Can someone who is smarter than I am find and post a link to a COTH article that Danny Warrington wrote about his wife, Amanda, her dreadful injury on course and subsequent death? It was years ago, but my recollection is that Danny wrote that they knew the horse had issues XC, but it was so talented otherwise that they persevered.
It can be so hard to say, “Nope. This one doesn’t have it.” A good friend of mine is going through this with her daughter’s horse, and may well retire him because, as she says, “I don’t want to make that decision a day too late.”
Wow, that was a good article. Not much has changed sadly.
[QUOTE=IFG;8161057]
Annie,
This one: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/no-one-can-fix-eventing-except-riders[/QUOTE]
I read this article when it first came out. Just read it again. EVERYONE in eventing should read this once a year. Rider responsibility would go a long way to making the sport safer.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8161082]
Wow, that was a good article. Not much has changed sadly.[/QUOTE]
I was a witness to her fall. It was not something anyone should ever have to see…Danny was near me as well. His article is still very relevant today.
