I think its possible the rotational falls themselves have changed. I think they have been around but not quite with the same results as in the past as was previously stated.
The attitude of indifference relies basically on the same old mantra that is trotted out.all.the.time - eventing is inherently dangerous, we know the risks before going in, all horse sports are dangerous, etc.
If they used that mantra to see how they can lesson the risks and come up with answers. Not that I know what they are, but Iâd like to see some forward thinking.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8159854]
Honestly⊠a: a horse not ready to compete at the level it is being asked to run. B: a rider not reAdy to compete at the level they are attempting. c: pilot error.
IMO, Very rarely is it a problem fence. Organizers are really quite good about removing fences that arenât riding well.[/QUOTE]
VERY GOOD point.
And that pressure comes from us as riders, I would venture a guess.
I mean, we ourselves gt competitive with ourselves and want to move up, do better. Internal pressure is definitely something.
And part of the issue, though I donât have an answer how to address it.
ETA- how does everyone feel about these house looking jumps with the roof edge sticking out towards you?
And the no ground lines, at least in SJ, and sometimes in XC, I heard that it is now thought that a ground line is dangerous - was there a big study or something that I missed?
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8159854]
Honestly⊠a: a horse not ready to compete at the level it is being asked to run. B: a rider not reAdy to compete at the level they are attempting. c: pilot error.
IMO, Very rarely is it a problem fence. Organizers are really quite good about removing fences that arenât riding well.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The PTB have tried changing qualifications to handle the rider/horse readiness factor, but you can only legislate so far.
Not saying all this discussion of what can be done externally to make the sport safer isnât productive, but it should happen within the context of understanding it does ultimately come down to the rider.
The rider is the person training the horse, choosing the level to compete, the speed and approach to the fence, etc. Heck, the rider is the one choosing to jump the fence. If you walk a course and think a fence is unsafe, you tell your rider rep and have your concerns brought up. If you donât think your concerns have been adequately addressed, you donât HAVE to jump the fence. Go home. Write a letter to the organizers and to the Chronicle, bitch on COTH (god knows weâre all good at that!) but donât jump the damn fence if your gut tells you itâs unsafe.
I know the OP and PP donât want to hear about the âinherent risks of the sport,â but how about the âinherent fallibility of living creaturesâ? I read some of this discussion about what needs to be done and get the impression some people think (incorrectly, IMO) that some amount of external changes (to rules, jump design, course design, etc.) will make the sport safe. But you will never be able to eliminate human error, and if you canât prevent a person from tripping down his staircase and killing himself, you canât prevent him from taking/not taking a tug at the absolute wrong moment and killing himself and his horse.
Another horse has died following a CCI3* in New Zealand.
I wonder too about falls. For example JP fell at Rolex then again at Jersey FREsh just a few weeks later. Related? Maybe, maybe not.
^Wait, that wasnât one of the 2 in the OP?
[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8159957]
^Wait, that wasnât one of the 2 in the OP?[/QUOTE]
It was. Still âno further details releasedââŠ
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8159915]
Another horse has died following a CCI3* in New Zealand.
I wonder too about falls. For example JP fell at Rolex then again at Jersey FREsh just a few weeks later. Related? Maybe, maybe not.[/QUOTE]
Same horse , died on the 16th, new article.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8159915]
Another horse has died following a CCI3* in New Zealand.
I wonder too about falls. For example JP fell at Rolex then again at Jersey FREsh just a few weeks later. Related? Maybe, maybe not.[/QUOTE]
Different horses though. It is worth a mention that the horse that fell at rolex (alr) wrecked a Frangible fence both at rolex this year and had a similar wreck last year - I forget where the fall was last year, but it was scary. (they didnât fall but crashed the pin) It caused a big debate on social media. Fwiw, this horse has moved up the levels mighty quickly in my opinion.
The horse she fell on at JF also had a fall last year.
I donât know what to make of this. She is one of my favorite riders but I do wonder with all of these falls if she isnât pushing herself or her animals a little too hard.
When discussing horse deaths I am interested in more detail than is usually offered. its important to look at each instance here as a stand alone and determine if it was directly related to eventing or could have happened anywhere. For instance, dambala trashed an old suspensory⊠This could have happened in a pasture or in a dressage ring. Was it a great idea to run a horse with an old suspensory at a 4*? Maybe not. We will never know if the horse may have sustained the same reinjury in a non eventing situation had It lived a few more years. It is hard to ask these questions without being accused of being insensitive.
Another example on the list just off the top of my head is neveah. She had a cardiac event at fence 4 that resulted in a rotational⊠This sort of thing truly could have happened anywhere. I wouldnât chalk this one up to an eventing related death⊠it is a death that happened to occur at an event. Thereâs a big difference.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8160023]
Another example on the list just off the top of my head is neveah. She had a cardiac event at fence 4 that resulted in a rotational⊠This sort of thing truly could have happened anywhere. I wouldnât chalk this one up to an eventing related death⊠[/QUOTE]
You canât possibly believe that.
A horse is galloping on an XC course at a UL speed and has a catastrophic cardiovascular event. Yes, a cardiovascular event can happen anywhere, but, in this case, the circumstances leading up to it â like the increased demands of speed and environment â are significant.
I never said they were insignificant, but the horse was only at the 4th fence. If less than 1 minute of galloping and 3 efforts is going to kill it, this was only a matter of time until it happened elsewhere. Now if we were talking about fence 20 that would be a different story.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8160093]
I never said they were insignificant, but the horse was only at the 4th fence. If less than 1 minute of galloping and 3 efforts is going to kill it, this was only a matter of time until it happened elsewhere. Now if we were talking about fence 20 that would be a different story.[/QUOTE]
No. There was also warm-up.
FWIW, in humans, catastrophic metabolic failures (like heat stroke, which doesnât necessarily relate to environmental heat at all, or cardiac arrest) often occur in the earlier phases of an event. But you cannot draw the conclusion that the competitive environment or the demands of the competition are not factors in why the event happened there and then.
When horses die of cardiovascular events on the racetrack, theyâve been out there for what? Less than a minute? A minute and a half? Do you think those deaths arenât related to racing?
[QUOTE=JER;8160102]
No. There was also warm-up.
FWIW, in humans, catastrophic metabolic failures (like heat stroke, which doesnât necessarily relate to environmental heat at all, or cardiac arrest) often occur in the earlier phases of an event. But you cannot draw the conclusion that the competitive environment or the demands of the competition are not factors in why the event happened there and then.
When horses die of cardiovascular events on the racetrack, theyâve been out there for what? Less than a minute? A minute and a half? Do you think those deaths arenât related to racing?[/QUOTE]
They are related to racing only insofar as it was a matter of time when the horse would have its heart rate up to a certain level - so the same accident would have happened if the horse was galloping madly about his field. It was a weakness that the horse brought to the situation, and not the situation itself that led to the death.
And if a horse dies before the fourth fence, what is the solution? Eliminate the first third of the course?
[QUOTE=JER;8160102]
No. There was also warm-up.
FWIW, in humans, catastrophic metabolic failures (like heat stroke, which doesnât necessarily relate to environmental heat at all, or cardiac arrest) often occur in the earlier phases of an event. But you cannot draw the conclusion that the competitive environment or the demands of the competition are not factors in why the event happened there and then.
When horses die of cardiovascular events on the racetrack, theyâve been out there for what? Less than a minute? A minute and a half? Do you think those deaths arenât related to racing?[/QUOTE]
Are you drunk already? Itâs a little early.
I never said they were unrelated. âit was only a matter of timeâ. healthy horses do not drop dead at fence 4 because eventing killed them. They do because they have a preexisting conditon.
I think one would also have to consider the jumping style of the individual horsesâat any level, one would presume/hope they had the ability to cover height/width of the fences on a variety of approaches. As the levels go up though the room for error shrinksâsome will have a greater scope to survive a sticky spot than others.
It seems the good jumping form that is currently rewarded/considered desirable, particularly seen in the warmblood-types is a bascule to the point of them curling up into a ball. If the fence gets in the way, there is no way the horseâs (incl, a glued-on rider) centre of gravity will do other than topple over the obstacle. The older style TB âstag leapâ with hanging forelimbs but raised shoulders seldom had the same issue (eg steeplechasers). A mighty big database of horse jump form/fence type & size/footing/clear-rub-fall info would be needed to predict future occurrences.
I count myself very lucky to have completed a 3day prelim under the long formatâlast century:D. I had the ride on a mare with more than enough physical scope for the job and that undoubtedly gave us a margin of error wide enough to cope with pilot errors.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8160128]
Are you drunk already? Itâs a little early.[/QUOTE]
Thatâs really rude.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8160000]
Different horses though. It is worth a mention that the horse that fell at rolex (alr) wrecked a Frangible fence both at rolex this year and had a similar wreck last year - I forget where the fall was last year, but it was scary. (they didnât fall but crashed the pin) It caused a big debate on social media. Fwiw, this horse has moved up the levels mighty quickly in my opinion.
The horse she fell on at JF also had a fall last year.
I donât know what to make of this. She is one of my favorite riders but I do wonder with all of these falls if she isnât pushing herself or her animals a little too hard.[/QUOTE]
I will admit, when I read that she was getting on and competing after having a baby so soon, I was more then a little shocked. I have 3 children, my births were easy, normal and my healing time was perfect. I may not be eventing at a 4* level but I train horses and when I had my first baby I had been riding multiple times a day every day until well after 6 months. I continued riding a couple horses until well into my 8th month. I WAS VERY FIT. After I had my children, I rode within 3 weeks after all of them, and it took months for feel right again.
I cannot imagine jumping the obstacles JF was jumping a month after having a baby. I donât think its right, your balance is not right. I realize she is a professional and wants to be at the top shows⊠but I was very nervous for her. I was sad to hear she did have a fall.
As someone who works in a hospital and knows about heart problems from family health issues, Heart attacks can strike randomly, but if a horse starts having anxiety at a competition and is nervous of the environment it can most definately lead to a horse havin a heart attack! Some horses are emotionally not cut out for racing or showing.
And lastly, I would be really interested in seeing a proper statistic rate created from when the long format was still in play to now.
In case that was not clear, people who are high strung and anxious, who get elevated blood pressure are at risk for a heart attack!!! Just like your horse!
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8160000]
Different horses though. It is worth a mention that the horse that fell at rolex (alr) wrecked a Frangible fence both at rolex this year and had a similar wreck last year - I forget where the fall was last year, but it was scary. (they didnât fall but crashed the pin) It caused a big debate on social media. Fwiw, this horse has moved up the levels mighty quickly in my opinion.
The horse she fell on at JF also had a fall last year.
I donât know what to make of this. She is one of my favorite riders but I do wonder with all of these falls if she isnât pushing herself or her animals a little too hard.[/QUOTE]
Worth repeating. What does it say when it is different horses? I feel the same way, huge fan for so long, not getting the warm and fuzzies right now. Have also heard the horses were not in a fitness program one would expect at that level, but that is not something I can say I have witnessed with my own eyes.
