[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157476]
If we include serious injury then there are a lot at the CCI3* and 4* level. It seems almost all the UL riders at one time or another have a serious injury - is this just the way of the sport?[/QUOTE]
I believe this is true of professional horsemen in most disciplines.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8157745]
But without studyā¦that may not be safer. Plus how different would that be from competitive trail riding or endurance? Just thoughts.[/QUOTE]
just reading back in those old postsā¦they used the terrain much more on the course. Obviously, without the studies we have no idea, but these studies are not happening and when they do it will be years before results. We canāt just wait around anymore. I think I will do as Winding Down suggested and start to compile all the information possible on rotational falls, and deaths of horse or rider on a spread sheet. Itās a start.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157752]
just reading back in those old postsā¦they used the terrain much more on the course. Obviously, without the studies we have no idea, but these studies are not happening and when they do it will be years before results. We canāt just wait around anymore. I think I will do as Winding Down suggested and start to compile all the information possible on rotational falls, and deaths of horse or rider on a spread sheet. Itās a start.[/QUOTE]
The USEA has been doing a study for several years. They collect all the details you are discussing for EVERY fall at a competitionā¦from pop off to rotational. Extensive reports have to be filed by the event for every horse fall or serious fall of rider. I believe they have published summaries every year. But the data has been collected and continues to be. If you really want to be involved moreā¦Iād look in to seeing if you can assist on any of the safety committees.
ETA: There is also a current study of event horses being conducted by the Iowa State Universityā¦collecting data on injuries etc that are not always representative at competitions.
Ok, where are the reports? what information is collected? There is more information that I am interested in than what is included. Why is not easily found by the general public?
Iām also in Canada, so not sure I could be on a committee if I am not a member.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8157672]
So JP60, do you propose that we go back to training level at the 4* level? Do you believe that XC should be more about the terrain and carrying a dispatch across country? To prove that a a charger can succeed on long marches?
This is a war??? What constitutes a war?
So you are calling for change. You want this to be more about endurance and less about jumping?
Please describe what it is that you want, rather than what it is that you are fightingā¦[/QUOTE]
First, I was not proposing, I was showing that when the civilian sport of Eventing was started, Training was the height and it was a success. From that, the levels grew such that today we have 3ā11" and drops over 6ā and speeds that top 800 mpm. Why did they grow? At any time did an officiating body consider that maybe we are getting to extreme? WHat are we testing?
Iāve been one who who rather see Eventing be more about endurance, yes, for if I was hauling across the countryside, I would normally not jump a string of skinnies to get to the other side. Where you bring up war is beyond me for I was clear that the roots of this sport are steeped in the original calvary training. That when we get away from those roots, then the sport is transformed and perhaps need not take on the moniker of Eventing or Combined Horse Trials and instead use those worthless names proposed by the FEI. A General would not be happy if over 50% of his riders could not deliver orders, and I would hope that officials would not be happy that 50% or more of a competitor field is eliminated in the second phase of a sporting event.
As to fight, I have none. I have thoughts, desires for what I see wish for Eventing. Iād like to see courses and fences that tested both jumping and endurance without the intent to wipe out over 50% of the field, but judge the ability to take that āchargerā from start to finish in the best possible way. Iāve been consistent in saying make the courses longer, remove the watch, limit the number of technical efforts for having tested accuracy a couple times, why keep doing it. I have a desire to not see any more horse deaths due to falls nor rider deaths or serious injuries due to a mentality that bigger, faster, more extreme is better. I think Iāve been saying that sort of stuff most the time.
I donāt want to see cars crash and people die,
I donāt want to see boats sunk and people die,
I donāt want to see horses broken and people die
I want to see good honest competition and the best is not always found in who jumps the highest or gallops the fastest, but it can be found in who has the best partnership with their teammate in this, our equestrian sport.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157795]
Ok, where are the reports? what information is collected? There is more information that I am interested in than what is included. Why is not easily found by the general public?
Iām also in Canada, so not sure I could be on a committee if I am not a member.[/QUOTE]
Not sure on thatā¦you would have to look into it. I know I had a pop off at an event last year and was sent an email survey. It asked me to describe all the details of the fall (including, type of fence, weather etc.), my level of experience and training, the horseās level, what I thought contributed to the fallā¦description of any injuries. It was pretty detailed. Also asked if I thought it was a fair question for the level.
Iām a participant in the other study from Iowa. So they are tracking horsesā¦It asks for details about our conditioning program, training, turnout etc. If there is an injuryā¦it goes into detail about the type of injury and treatment.
Iām just a wee BN eventer who events once or twice a year with my gelding of indeterminate origin, but I think another factor in making the sport safer is how we think of ābad jumpsā
One year at an event, there was a jump that cause a lot of problems. It was an oddly shaped turkey feeder off a turn and was placed around a lot of trees, which cast shadows on the jump, making it look even more confusing. Being that it was BN, the problems were refusals and run-out instead of falls, but it was still a bogey jump. The next year, the same jump was back but in a completely different place. It was at the top of a hill, with a long clear path to it and no trees for hundreds of yards. The horses could get a nice long look at it. Problems caused: zero.
So often, the solution to problem jumps is to make them collapsible or brutalize the horse around the course more. More bit, more spurs, more whip. But what if we could just move the jump? Maybe take out of the trees and in the sun? Iāve seen so many bogey jumps that would be completely uneventful if someone just moved them a few dozen meters or so. I donāt want to ride courses where it feels like the course designer is trying to trick rather than test the horse and rider, and it feels like more and more courses are being designed to trick.
The USEA survey is here
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FallenRiderSurvey
It is optional self reported data
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157795]
Ok, where are the reports? what information is collected? There is more information that I am interested in than what is included. Why is not easily found by the general public?
[/QUOTE] The xc fall summary report (which includes a breakdown of the types of fences where falls occurred) is on the USEA website. I suspect things like that questionnaire are either on the website or would be sent to anyone who asks for it.
Progress from 2008, but, of course, there will be no data from the most serious fatal injuries.
I just went to the USEA site to look for the XC fall summary report mentioned, and all I could find was a summary from 2008-2009 that didnāt break down the type of horse fall between rotational and non-rotational. The BE summary that Willesdon cited was much more explicit, although it didnāt break down falls by fence type. The USEA document explicitly disclaims accuracy of information used to compile the numbers; BE uses annually audited numbers. The USEA stats after 2009 made no sense to me at all, and were very general.
If the USEA is doing on going publication of detailed fall statistics online, please post the URL. Iād like to read them.
Honestly most of the safety and research stuff puffed on the USEA website is old.
I just listened to the recent Chris Stafford show that is linked on the USEA with the two heads of the USEA Safety Committee, a former rider and an event organizer. What skills do they have to address the particulars of safety?
Eventing NZ site has the most information I have found so far, and thatās just in articles.
I donāt have time to get it again- it was under the research and safety tab but it went up to 2014. Do not remember if it noted rotational falls
[QUOTE=bambam;8159070]
I donāt have time to get it again- it was under the research and safety tab but it went up to 2014. Do not remember if it noted rotational falls[/QUOTE]
http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/cross_country_safety_stats.pdf
General thoughts before I go out for a ride.
JP60-I think that ātraining levelā test was developed to introduce civilians to the sport. The military event was hard and, as I understand, at the current 3ā11" 3/4* XC heights.
Wynn-we agree, the rider, for multiple reasons, is or is part of the problem. Whether moving up too quickly, little knowledge of how their horse reacts (tired/stressed/over faced), etc.
Rotational falls happen in any jumping sport. IMO the difference in eventing today is many R falls happen at slower speeds. At speed, the rider is normally thrown clear of the horse, watch steeplechase falls. With the slow down and SJ speed complexes on XC the horse and rider are going slower with the rider sitting deeper making it difficult for the rider to get clear of the horse. Longer stirrups may be another factor.
RE: Human Injuries around horses. The old saying is: It is not whether you will get hurt but rather when and how bad.
Years ago an acquaintance, a long time experienced horsewoman, was found dead next to the paddock where she was turning her horse out. They believe the horse somehow kicked her in the head. You will get hurt when you least expect it.
TDās and Safety Officers fill out fall forms and send them in to both USEF and USEA. Fence dimensions and number, weather, footing, general comments as well as injuries are not on the form. This info must be provided within 24 hours after the end of the event. So far I (TD) have āonly hadā to provide the fall reports.
Kudos to all of you who are experienced with research, let know if I can help in any way.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8159103]
http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/cross_country_safety_stats.pdf[/QUOTE]
Why donāt they have human and horse deaths as part of the data collected, I wonder.
[QUOTE=VCT;8159367]
Why donāt they have human and horse deaths as part of the data collected, I wonder.[/QUOTE]
From the LONE list, there have been no eventing deaths in the US in the period covered by the summary report. They should certainly break down human death/serious injury by cause as BE does.
IMO, the stats should break down horse falls by rotational and non rotational for both humans and horses. If horse deaths and serious injury were ever covered, they should be broken down to horse fall (rotational and non rotational), catastrophic injury (jump related or not jump related) and internal causes.
But I suppose thatās too much to ask.
I have a question.
What do we, as the people who event, train, own, volunteer, etc in the sport- think is the safety problem?
There is a vast amount of knowledge and experience here, from beginner to very advanced. So I am posing the question to those of us on the board.
What do we think? I know that our opinions are not statistics, though they may be based on them, but what, from experience, do we see?
I am not saying right or wrong, I just am very interested to see?
A little sidenote that probably is inconsequential but did stand out to me:
I was looking back online at the two most recent rotational-fall deaths I can remember here in the U.S. (Mia Ericsson at Galway Downs and Eleanor Brennan at Ocala). Those were 2007-2008, and I found it interesting that the coverage of those accidents, even in the horse press such as the Chronicle, never used the word ārotational.ā
The accidents were described as different versions of āthe horse hit a fence and fell on top of the rider.ā That language is just interesting to me because it seems to indicate that the phrase ārotational fallā is somewhat new to our lexicon, perhaps indicating that our heightened awareness of this type of fall and the damage that it can cause is very new as well.
Certainly, people have been suffering rotational falls since whenever humans decided it was a good idea to sit astride a horse and try to jump an obstacle, but perhaps the relatively recent increased awareness comes, as fooler noted above, with the slower speeds and possible increase (I say that anecdotally; no data to back it up) in fatal rotational falls?
Or, conversely, maybe weāve always had a somewhat steady number of rotational falls, and it has been giving them a specific name that has created the perception that theyāve increased?
[QUOTE=redalter;8159809]
I have a question.
What do we, as the people who event, train, own, volunteer, etc in the sport- think is the safety problem?
There is a vast amount of knowledge and experience here, from beginner to very advanced. So I am posing the question to those of us on the board.
What do we think? I know that our opinions are not statistics, though they may be based on them, but what, from experience, do we see?
I am not saying right or wrong, I just am very interested to see?
:)[/QUOTE]
Honestlyā¦ a: a horse not ready to compete at the level it is being asked to run. B: a rider not reAdy to compete at the level they are attempting. c: pilot error.
IMO, Very rarely is it a problem fence. Organizers are really quite good about removing fences that arenāt riding well.
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