WTF Are We Doing?

The potential of loss scares me, too, but I have to admit that the first impression I got of this issue today was when I read the list of deaths in the initial post. I didn’t do a statistical analysis of it or anything, but it sure seemed oddly consistent terms of the number of deaths each year, +/- a few. What does that mean, do you suppose? If roughly the same number of deaths have occurred, year in and year out, could that indicate that it isn’t the horses, it isn’t the courses, it’s…something else? Something that can’t be controlled?

Like “it’s the riders”?

That is what I (and, it seems, many) conclude. So no amount of equipment or regulation is likely to change that, IMO. Not even stricter qualifications or whathaveyou policies to insure “good” riders on course. Perhaps this is what makes this sport different (sorry if I am repeating what others have already stated): There are TWO brains involved and if those brains aren’t perfectly aligned, which you just can’t insure in any way at any level, mistakes happen.

I would, however, argue that the quality of riding has decreased as the available cash to buy rather than produce event horses has increased, but I don’t honestly think the quality of riding is all that correlated with the number of serious falls. How many riders who’ve fallen, retired, or racked up a slew of penalties over course after course have ultimately had a fall resulting in injury? That would be relatively easy data to collect, I think–and yet, I would predict that, again, the correlation wouldn’t be that high.

All of these non-relationships between skill, horse, rider, course, fitness, experience–you name it–leave me thinking that, ultimately, what this issue is stems from is a huge, RANDOM element: that stone, that dip, that slip, that shadow, that distraction.

(I wish I had the time to do a scientific analysis. It IS possible to calculate the statistical significant of how much variance in one variable is related to variance in another–and how much is due to chance. How interesting it would be to do that with this sad data.)

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said pwynn - but the first thing you notice - it’s the discussion on denial and complacency. People have accepted those numbers, and it’s unacceptable.

But I disagree that equipment and course design and fence improvements and format changes and qualifications wouldn’t change things. Too many technological advances in many other sports have made things safer - eventing is not the exception to this rule.

The sad fact is that we on COTH have this discussion all the time. We care about our sport. Many do not but yet it’s what they earn a living doing?! :frowning:

[QUOTE=NeverTime;8157155]

Somewhat related, it’s worth noting that the list of horse deaths at the beginning of this thread are not all horse falls or jump-related fatalities. A significant number of those horses died of cardiac events either during or immediately after competition – something else that there was quite a big push to study, though I confess I don’t know the results of that study. Still others sustained soft-tissue injuries and were euthanized later. Those injuries don’t seem, at least to me, to be preventable by external forces like course design or rule changes.
OLOR][/QUOTE]

Cardio events & catastrophic soft tissue injuries are important. You don’t just ignore data.

Ex - Fitness requirements have decreased at the 2/3* levels. Rushed along & sustained the injury? Lack of LSD work with the horses due to the shorter formats and XC last? Lack of knowledge with equine partner getting rushed up the levels & missing a horse with a cardiac abnormality? Cardiac reason for death triggered by injury or something else? See, there will always be a horse running across a pasture and breaking its leg - or a Hickstead - but you never omit them. The statistical analysis & research portion of things takes this into account.

What are we doing? Well I am taking an interest in safety. I am not a scientist but I have been researching and speaking with helmet and vest manufacturers. I have been studying the horses and riders who have rotational falls and their circumstances. How far on course they were, type of fence, how many events the rider has done recently, what the horses training program was like…etc. It’s all anecdotal but at least it’s something in my mind to help me understand why these keep happening and how to prevent them.

If we include serious injury then there are a lot at the CCI3* and 4* level. It seems almost all the UL riders at one time or another have a serious injury - is this just the way of the sport?

1 Like

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157476]

If we include serious injury then there are a lot at the CCI3* and 4* level. It seems almost all the UL riders at one time or another have a serious injury - is this just the way of the sport?[/QUOTE]

Too a certain extent…it is horses. I’m not riding at the 3*-4* level but have had several serious riding accidents and injuries. Most in my 20s but a few later. I don’t know anyone who has seriously trained horses for a length of time (in ANY discipline) who hasn’t been seriously hurt at one point. Most serious injuries happen at home schooling…and my worst to date did not involve jumping (was just riding on the flat).

It was the primary reason I do not do horses for a living…as being able to support myself through other means, I can reduce the risks I take even though I still take more than most (I LIKE riding green horses but your risk of injury riding goes up exponentially if you are riding a green horse–even good ones).

Serious injury as in stay in the hospital for more than a night or two? Is it really that common in all horse sports?

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157500]
Serious injury as in stay in the hospital for more than a night or two? Is it really that common in all horse sports?[/QUOTE]

Yes–hospital stay, significant broken bones, head injury. Mine was collapsed lung, coughing up blood, broken ribs. I’ve also broken my collar bone twice…none involved jumping (or even competing). And Yes…it is that common in PROFESSIONALs (I’m familiar with several, including, polo, jumpers, hunters, reining and dressage riders. Steeplechase and race riders probably hurt the most…then pros who do green horse starting). Not just participants…those that ride and train for a living…to get hurt is not uncommon. It was one of the reasons PRO pushed so hard to give an opportunity for members to purchase decent disability insurance at a group rate.

But even just pleasure riding…there is a significant risk compared to other activities…and risk not all participants seem to understand. A study I once read said more than 50% of injuries happen at mounting and dismounting.

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157500]
Serious injury as in stay in the hospital for more than a night or two? Is it really that common in all horse sports?[/QUOTE]

After 44 years of riding, I had mine. 10 days in the hospital with surgery to repair my tibia with plates and screws.

Oh, and mine was a stupid moment of idiocy mounting from the horse trailer, not even on the horse.

My worst accident, requiring an overnight hospital stay, occurred while hacking out the most quiet, unflappable draft cross I have ever owned. Walking quietly, passed a neighbor’s green house, dog charged out barking, and then all was dark from there. I woke up in the hospital.

Second worst accident was the stupidest emergency dismount ever from a bolting bucking mare - hopped off, landed funny, severed my ACL.

My third worst accident was cantering a young horse across a lovely field, in May. The second most unflappable horse (I swear - BFNE may recall Patrick), who is now a total packer for a very timid only dressage woman. He up and bucked me off (first and last buck he ever had), resulting in multiple cracked ribs.

Fourth worst accident, resulting also in multiple cracked ribs, cantering a young horse through a grid, he stumbled, and then did a face plant, and I went flying.

I have had one fall on xc. It was a simple no-brainer fence, toward the end of an intermediate at VHT. My heart horse came in on perfect stride and then, from all accounts, just had a total brain-fart lala moment. Jumped the fence in a very bizarre way and of course I went tumbling off, landed on my back, air vest went off, felt like a pillow, and horse was, of course, grazing and staring at me with a bit of disgust.

I have been eventing since around 1991, mostly on young horses, from BN through CIC**. Before 1991, I spent (from age 7 on) most of my time riding ponies, horses, foxhunting, and doing hunter shows. So I basically began in 1963 with the exception of walk/trot as a young child.

It is NOT that xc is safer than those other situations at all. It is because xc is a very very small fraction of the time I spend on a horse. So of course, the probability of falling off elsewhere is much much higher. This probably explains why I have not fallen off foxhunting either.

Duh…

This^^^^^ :slight_smile: does not have to be anecdotal. This ^^^ is the sort of forward-thinking energy that we need.

J, I do not know your research background but with some tweaking, we can make this systematic. Seriously. We can talk via PM if you wish because all we need is to come up with are classifications for your observations and ways to record the data such that it can be analyzed (and really the analyses are very rudimentary - mostly percentages at the outset, but with a good design/method, could lend itself to more sophisticated analyses in the future).

And because the information is readily available at the time of an accident, it is best to collect the data as they are available. Retrospective is okay but more time-consuming.

So why don’t we come up with a research design and then divvy up the data-gathering, by event. I could do several per month - the data are sparse and not that difficult to collect at the time of an event. All you have to do is get on the phone (if that is even necessary) and find out what the fence looked like, get pics etc.

Also, if we could get more involved, we could also come up with a photo album of the fall fences, and any other details (such as type of fall).

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157476]
What are we doing? Well I am taking an interest in safety. I am not a scientist but I have been researching and speaking with helmet and vest manufacturers. I have been studying the horses and riders who have rotational falls and their circumstances. How far on course they were, type of fence, how many events the rider has done recently, what the horses training program was like…etc. It’s all anecdotal but at least it’s something in my mind to help me understand why these keep happening and how to prevent them.

If we include serious injury then there are a lot at the CCI3* and 4* level. It seems almost all the UL riders at one time or another have a serious injury - is this just the way of the sport?[/QUOTE]
What is this sport? What purpose does it serve? What are we testing? Why? Where do the limits stop?

Just today I read an article about the Indy500 and that they had 4 serious crashes, one resulting in surgery, but no one died (except the car to look at it one way). In light of such mayhem the officials put an immediate change to the cars, slowed them down by 5-6 mph and they continued practice and qualifying. Officials can make changes in the interest of safety until they better understand the new limits.

After Dale Earnhardt died at the Daytona 500 and Adam Petty died in New Hampshire, NASCAR immediately rules the hans device be mandatory for all drivers and they committed tracks to install safer barriers to reduce the shock effect of hitting the wall at 200 mph. Officials can make changes to the sport that still keep the essence of the sport without exposing drivers to serious injury and death.

The Volco Ocean Race goes round the world, hitting some of the most extreme of conditions and pre-emptively the Organizers established ice exclusion zones to remove the risk of sailboat hitting unseen ice in the middle of the night at 20 kts. Old salts bitched that it took away from the “extreme” of the sport, but most hail it as a good for the sport for attempting to save people 1000 miles from nowhere is not only extremely hard, it is a bad image for the sport. Only one death has happened in recent times and it was due to human error, not lack of safety.

I have been involved in this sport for 7 years and in that time, more horses and riders have died then in all the sports I describe, yet I see practically nothing done to stop death from happening again.

Reduce the number of technical questions - “You’ll ruin the sport”
Reduce the size of the jumps - “You’ll make it too easy and ruin the sport”
Tighten the qualifications - “You’ll drive people away from the sport and ruin”
Change the OT - “Its not about speed, and what do you know”
Extend the length and make the jumps more forward riding, less run and stop - “There is not enough room and you don’;t know anything about UL riding so just shut up”

and so on.

People have done studies, people propose studies, others keep making the point that us humans have the right to choose to ride such a risky sport (though ignoring the will of the horse in that position), but at the root of this, the pillars of this sport continue to speak out against change for it means having to redefine what is the purpose of Eventing and they have dedicated their lives to what it is today.

What I find interesting is the creep that occurred in this sport upwards over time. Take a look at this paragraph found on this webpage;

The first civilian three-day event held in the U.S. took place in 1949 and was run in conjunction with the Bryn Mawr Horse Show. In 1953, it was decided to organize a miniature event based on the Olympic three-day formula. Rules were written, and a course was developed at the steeplechase course in Nashville in 1953. There was only one level, which would equate to the training level under current standards. The trial was a huge success and it became the first continuous one-day event.

So in the beginning, 3’1" was the height of the day in the US and it started going up ever since. Why? Not enough challenge? When does it become too much?

Let’s go back to the roots for a moment

An eventing competition that resembles the current sport was first held in 1902, at the Championnat du Cheval d’Armes in France, the first occurrence of eventing in the Olympics was in 1912 when Count Clarence von Rosen, Master of the Horse to the King of Sweden, devised the first event.
The object of the event was to test Cavalry Officers’ chargers for their fitness and suitability. Dressage originally demonstrated the horse’s ability to perform on the parade ground, where elegance and obedience were key. Cross-country began as a test of stamina, courage, and bravery over difficult terrain, important for a charger on long marches or if the horse was asked to carry a dispatch across country. Theshow jumping phase sought to prove the horse’s continuing soundness and fitness after the difficult cross-country day

Given the current statistics across our 4* courses, more than 50% of the dispatches would not make it across country. Thus goes the war I guess.

It seems that the sport has evolved into this extremist notion of survival with course designers doing what they can to not just test teams, but actively eliminate them.

Jeloushe, I am in your court on this, but it is a small court and not one people want to hear. The pillars of this modern sport do not want change for they see it effecting the most important thing to them, their pocket book. The best safety action Eventing could take is to voluntarily remove it’s self from the Olympics and the FEI. After that, adopt sane rules for testing the fundamentals of this sport with the notion that it is not about survival, but endurance.

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157500]
Serious injury as in stay in the hospital for more than a night or two? Is it really that common in all horse sports?[/QUOTE]

IME yes, most trainers have a collection of war stories (even on this board–lots and lots of injuries). Not all involving upper level xc, horses are just dangerous. To ride, to handle, in confined spaces like trailers.

My worst injury involved a prelim xc fence, but the next 2 were not even mounted–one was on the ground adjusting a wayward half pad, the other was handwalking a drugged horse for rehab.

So JP60, do you propose that we go back to training level at the 4* level? Do you believe that XC should be more about the terrain and carrying a dispatch across country? To prove that a a charger can succeed on long marches?

This is a war??? What constitutes a war?

So you are calling for change. You want this to be more about endurance and less about jumping?

Please describe what it is that you want, rather than what it is that you are fighting…

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157476]
What are we doing? Well I am taking an interest in safety. I am not a scientist but I have been researching and speaking with helmet and vest manufacturers. I have been studying the horses and riders who have rotational falls and their circumstances. How far on course they were, type of fence, how many events the rider has done recently, what the horses training program was like…etc. It’s all anecdotal but at least it’s something in my mind to help me understand why these keep happening and how to prevent them.

If we include serious injury then there are a lot at the CCI3* and 4* level. It seems almost all the UL riders at one time or another have a serious injury - is this just the way of the sport?[/QUOTE]

Then why not state this in your OP? (ETA: this is a rhetorical question) Maybe the tone of this thread would have started out different if you had shown us that you are actively trying to find ways to make things work, rather than coming across as a person who is all voice.

Two examples, one from real life, the other from eventing.

Real life first. For the past 14 years, air travelers have been a captive audience to the increasingly invasive and absurdist pantomime known as ‘SECURITY!’. I’m using caps because the word is screamed, loudly, without comprehension at every opportunity. It’s like Ionesco’s Rhinoceros, but scripted by amateurs and conmen. No, you can’t take 6 ounces of toothpaste on the plane. But once you’re past security, you can go to duty free and buy a couple of litres of 110 proof liquor, which will make a lovely firestarter when you pour it down the airliner floor and toss in a couple of lit matches. Plane goes poof! LOL security.

That’s a illustration of a culture of indifference, or maybe of convenience, where the commercial interests of DFS override the actual safety interests of air travelers.

Here’s one from eventing. A few months back, British Eventing banned helmet cams. The reason for this? Not data, not an accident. It came from an opinion expressed by a French journalist about the skiing accident of former F1 driver Michael Schumacher. Even the journalist said it was his opinion, not based on fact or evidence. USEF jumped on the ‘safety’ bandwagon and enacted its own ban, which was subsequently reversed. BE, as of a few weeks ago, was still upholding the ban.

Then, at Badminton two weeks ago, Niklas Bschorer performed a very high-profile, very scary Point Two Pirouette on the bank out of the Lake. His air vest had inflated in a near-fall (he stayed on his horse) then did not deflate as advertised. His horse spun around on the bank, reminiscent of the Mandiba accident but minus the bad ending.

Bschorer’s air vest failure was apparently one of three that weekend. I don’t know how many riders were wearing air vests on XC – certainly not all, but many – but if we accept that there were ~70 riders on course that day and even assume all were wearing air jackets, 3 out of 70 is a significant number of failures. For comparison, Takata is currently recalling 34 million vehicles due to airbag malfunctions. 34 million – there have been 5 deaths and 139 injuries attributed to them.

But no one is calling for a temporary ban on air vests, despite a complete lack of data showing that they’re safe (after that, we can worry about whether they are helpful) and a significant number of failures in one day at the highest level of competition.

This is a perfect illustration of a culture of indifference. Cherry-picking for ‘safety’. Ban the helmet cam based on nothing; allow the air jacket based on an aggressive marketing and often-false advertising campaign.

:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=kmartin85;8157675]
Then why not state this in your OP? (ETA: this is a rhetorical question) Maybe the tone of this thread would have started out different if you had shown us that you are actively trying to find ways to make things work, rather than coming across as a person who is all voice.[/QUOTE]

It was just assumed it was all voice, this thread was not supposed to be about me but some wanted to make it that way instead of focus on the real issues. I am just someone who is passionate about our sport and fears for its future. I have heard the “those who talk don’t know” one too many times perhaps.

Winding Down I am definitely interested in developing something to keep track. Now that my first mini horse trial hosting is done for the season I can start doing things like this in my free time. I am going to ask the OHTA and event organizers if they can share fall data with me…their reply should be telling also.

Perhaps the XC needs more difficult terrain and less groomed courses on perfect footing. Bigger hills, more challenging crossings, more endurance required, less jumps that kill.

and JER at least one rider killed was wearing an air vest. I believe it was last year or 2013.

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8157734]

Perhaps the XC needs more difficult terrain and less groomed courses on perfect footing. Bigger hills, more challenging crossings, more endurance required, less jumps that kill.[/QUOTE]

But without study…that may not be safer. Plus how different would that be from competitive trail riding or endurance? Just thoughts.