WTF Are We Doing?

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8156673]
This whole argument about “Culture of Indifference” is absolutely ridiculous! Seriously people? Do you think ANYONE is indifferent??? [/QUOTE]

You’re misunderstanding and misappropriating the term ‘culture of indifference’.

RAyers mentioned the culture of indifference. You can read all about the horrific lab accident in 2009 at UCLA that he cites as the source of the term. It was in and out of the news for several years.

The term is not meant to indicate that UCLA professors and students didn’t care about lab accidents. They did – in theory. If you’d gone on campus and asked chem profs and students ‘Are you concerned about the possibility of a lab accident?’ or something like that, you would find that close to 100% of respondents would say that they never wanted to have a serious lab accident, that they were careful, that lab accidents concerned them, etc.

However, back at the lab, you’d see that training and supervision were skimpy, protocols weren’t always followed, the more uncomfortable or bothersome parts of safety plans weren’t performed every time out. The lack of rigor, the lack of 100% discipline, the just-not-bothering-this-time happened far more often than was safe. And hence the accident.

Attitudes and actions don’t correlate very well – this is a well-known phenomenon in psychology. So in the case of eventing, there might be statements about safety and intermittent shows of concern, like safety seminars and so on, but the sport might not willing to undertake the deeper actions that are required for safer eventing.

I just went and looked at the LONE list on New Zealand Horsetalk.
In 2007, 9 riders were killed. In 2008, 6 riders. Then the safety hoopla, and only one died in 2009. After that the numbers are:
2010–4
2011–1
2012–0
2013–2
2014–3
2015 (so far)–2

These are the ones that made the list.

So that looks as if things were definitely improving.

But in 2006 there were 3; 2005–0; 2004–3; 2003–1; 2002–0; 2001–0; 2000–3. Safety was focused on after 2000, because of a rash of deaths in 1998 (5) and 1999 (5).

This list is only as good as the reporting of deaths of horses and humans and serious injury to humans.

Safety is only as good as the focus the events and the riders put on it. When it’s in the forefront of both riders and the events, the numbers seem to be better. If there is slacking off, the numbers seem to get worse.

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8156861]
Curious. How did you come up with your probabilities, e.g., sample size, time length, etc.? I assume multi- year, given that the range of events throughout the year? And across geographic areas? You included countries outside of the US I presume? All of them? All levels?

I am sure you did not just take a few months, especially given the unusually high number of accidents this year. At this point, we of course do not want to draw conclusions based on such a short time span, for obvious reasons.

??[/QUOTE]

I am using the FEI stats that BNFE provided the link earlier in this very own thread! Dates are 2004-2014.

JER describes what “culture of indifference” is very well. A more direct example is, you may CARE about preventing injuries in an automobile accident but it does not necessarily mean you wear your seatbelt EVERY TIME. You become “indifferent” to the risk of injury, even though the statistics say you have a good chance for an accident within x miles of home.

This is why the military, airlines, even doctors and research labs and heavy industries GRILL and TEST safety almost on a continual basis. It forces the people to cease being indifferent and, at least, make safety innate so the participant does not have to think about it. I automatically put on safety glasses every where I go (literally) in work and I even wear safety glasses when I run XC.

It was Peggy (the EVIL Chem Prof) who provided the UCLA example.

I have one where in MY OWN LAB GROUP, where a student put his sodium azide (a SEVERE poison if it touches the skin or is ingested and a highly reactive compound) next to his lunch time peanut butter jar. To get his attention, I took a picture and sent it to EH&S and reported the incident with his name. Not pretty for him and it made the official university “What NOT to Do” lecture for the next few years.

Some interesting statistical comparisons. Base jumpers seem to be most risky. I have always considered eventing one of the first extreme sports. Doesn’t contribute to how to make the sport safer but it is interesting the risks people take. I have always thought that age limits should be a bit higher. This isn’t a sport that you peak at at a young age. Some of the scariest divisions to watch are the JR/YR at training and prelim. Statistically I don’t think most of the accidents are at those levels but I wonder if there would be some merit to raise age requirements to slow people’s rise to the higher levels.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120302-extreme-sports-a-risky-business

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2014/03/31/with-the-thrills-come-extreme-risks/?referrer=

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8156992]
Some interesting statistical comparisons. Base jumpers seem to be most risky. I have always considered eventing one of the first extreme sports. Doesn’t contribute to how to make the sport safer but it is interesting the risks people take. I have always thought that age limits should be a bit higher. This isn’t a sport that you peak at at a young age. Some of the scariest divisions to watch are the JR/YR at training and prelim. Statistically I don’t think most of the accidents are at those levels but I wonder if there would be some merit to raise age requirements to slow people’s rise to the higher levels.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120302-extreme-sports-a-risky-business

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2014/03/31/with-the-thrills-come-extreme-risks/?referrer=[/QUOTE]

Swimming right there at the top of the List. We should regulate that all participants wear life vests at all times and limit allowable water depth to lessen risk of drowning. These people absolutely cannot make their own decisions based on acceptable risk, we must make it for them.

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8157006]
Swimming right there at the top of the List. We should regulate that all participants wear life vests at all times and limit allowable water depth to lessen risk of drowning. These people absolutely cannot make their own decisions based on acceptable risk, we must make it for them.[/QUOTE]

you’re bad :eek:

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8157006]
Swimming right there at the top of the List. We should regulate that all participants wear life vests at all times and limit allowable water depth to lessen risk of drowning. These people absolutely cannot make their own decisions based on acceptable risk, we must make it for them.[/QUOTE]

If a person wishes to event without dragging a poor horse along for the dangers, then good for them.

I don’t think most people commenting are saying humans can’t decide to take some risks - but in equestrian sports you are making that decision for the horse, too, and I think we are letting the horses down on that front.

As pointed out, even frangible pins are designed to protect the rider, not the horse - they aren’t meant to stop the fall, just change the direction of the horse’s fall relative to the rider so the rider is less likely to get squished. The horse is still flipping over a jump and possibly getting severely injured doing so.

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8157006]
Swimming right there at the top of the List. We should regulate that all participants wear life vests at all times and limit allowable water depth to lessen risk of drowning. These people absolutely cannot make their own decisions based on acceptable risk, we must make it for them.[/QUOTE]

As a certified lifeguard, EMT, and organizer of sporting events that include swimming, I can tell you that swimming and water access is highly regulated by various authorities in the US and Canada.

(Also, life vests and water depth aren’t solutions at all for many of the issues in immersion incidents. Read up on hypothermia or shallow water blackout. :))

RAyers - You are aware of the Barry Sharpless incident? That’s my go-to when students ask why they have to wear goggles in the lab all the time, even when they’re not working with chemicals.

Yes, and my reference to the UCLA lab accident. As a direct result of said accident, not only has UCLA beefed up their safety protocols and with actual follow-through, but there’s been a trickle down effect as they make their materials available to others. It’s a pity that someone had to die in order for this to happen. I haven’t worked in a research lab in years, but recall a pretty macho attitude towards safety, especially in some chemistry disciplines. As an example, I recall someone who used to extinguish cigarettes (yes, people smoked in the lab–this was mid to late 70’s) in diethyl ether. In grad school (late 70’s to early 80’s, some grad students would squirt pyrophoric liquids out of syringes into the air. Fun times…

I agree that we could be doing more – and doing the things we are doing better – to improve safety within the sport, but I think the OP is wrong to say that “0” or “nothing” is being done to make the sport safer.

Others have already mentioned the improvements to required safety equipment, innovations in fence design and other efforts under way to make courses and individual fences safer, as well as rules/standards for moving up/down the levels that seem aimed at preventing riders or horses from getting in over their heads or stopping them when they do.

Anecdotally, I do think the sport is MUCH safer now than in the past, and agree with others who say the perception that it is more dangerous likely comes from how quickly information now travels. The perception also comes from a change in our collective tolerance for injury to the horse, so even though the sport is much safer than it was, its still not “safe enough” for modern zero-harm standards and likely never can be.

Somewhat related, it’s worth noting that the list of horse deaths at the beginning of this thread are not all horse falls or jump-related fatalities. A significant number of those horses died of cardiac events either during or immediately after competition – something else that there was quite a big push to study, though I confess I don’t know the results of that study. Still others sustained soft-tissue injuries and were euthanized later. Those injuries don’t seem, at least to me, to be preventable by external forces like course design or rule changes.

This whole discussion makes me think of a quote I read earlier this week (in a story, of all things, about the poisoning threat to children created by laundry soap pods). Replace children/kids with horses/eventing and I think it’s pretty accurate. It’s not an excuse to do nothing, but it’s a reminder that we can only do so much:

“Every death of a child is an unspeakable tragedy for the families involved. But too much of our public discourse about child safety is predicated on the fiction that we can make the world 100 percent safe for kids, if only we legislate a little harder or circumscribe our kids’ worlds a little more tightly.”

[QUOTE=Peggy;8156264]
WRT the timeline of doing stadium or cross country last. I just read an event report in the COTH magazine where two BNT were quoted as saying they preferred stadium first.

Just looked it up – March 30 issue, page 100, sidebar on Notable Absences. And it was Phillip Dutton and Boyd Martin[/QUOTE]

Yup, it’s easier to stadium jump if the horse isn’t tired. If your horse goes lame on XC, you can just throw it in a trailer and take it home. No need for a second jog.

[QUOTE=NeverTime;8157155]

“Every death of a child is an unspeakable tragedy for the families involved. But too much of our public discourse about child safety is predicated on the fiction that we can make the world 100 percent safe for kids, if only we legislate a little harder or circumscribe our kids’ worlds a little more tightly.”[/QUOTE]

Which is all well and good, yet parents of the dead will sue the manufacturers because THEIR kid was killed by the product. Think how much money I can make as a consultant from the kids’ parents by looking at how the product was defective and helping the legal system go after the manufacturer.

You bring up an altruistic idea, however, society and reality (read psychology) tend to go another way forcing others to either bear the costs or to get rich. In any case it leads to a lot more people wasting time better spent doing better things. BTW, lead paint, thalidomide, and Vietnam were the scourges of my childhood.

I agree that one can not be completely safe. Look at how I ride or the fact I have, at times, a dangerous job, BUT - and this is where I see the weaknesses in the governing bodies - a concerted, programatic review and assessment of safety hazards and protocols can lead one to manage the risks in a much more effective manner.

Look at war, one of the more risky jobs. Deaths from war have dropped precipitously because our agencies continue to develop and research better ways to mitigate and manage hazards on a continual basis. Death rates in every war continue to fall because of PROCESS improvement. A similar thing can be done in high risk, organized sports too.

RAyers - You are aware of the Barry Sharpless incident? That’s my go-to when students ask why they have to wear goggles in the lab all the time, even when they’re not working with chemicals.

Nah! I have enough explosions and fires in my labs. EH&S and I were/are on a first name basis. I actually consult directly with them before I even do a proposal or start a study to have them look at safety aspects, from protocols to safety improvement.

Using myself as an example (I’m not proud and I’m willing to stand up), here is a good example:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151679267137622&set=a.431994582621.211479.624807621&type=3&theater

Is there a CIC vs. CCI breakdown in the FEI stats? I know they do break it down by level, but except for Benjamin Winter, I honestly can’t think of a human death in a 4*.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8157200]
but except for Benjamin Winter, I honestly can’t think of a human death in a 4*.[/QUOTE]

I’m assuming you mean recently? There have been deaths at 4*, like Simon Long, Caroline Pratt, and Mark Davies at Burghley.

Recently. In the Short Format era.

For anyone interested in eventing risk management and safety, I found this site:
https://eventingsafety.wordpress.com/

Author is an Australian FEI TD, John Lechner. It’s worth reading. I’m not sure if it’s up to date, though.

I’ve just been doing some research on rider deaths in eventing competitions. I’ve gone back through 2008 on the LONE list (19 deaths), and only one or possibly two are not the result of rotational falls. One rather interesting factoid is that, except for one 15 yo Russian and this year’s Italian woman, all the deaths in eventing since 2008 have been males.

Except for Winter, none since 2008 have been at CCIs. Most have been lower than 2*. The majority have not been in FEI competition. There is one in a CIC3*. None have been in NA.

I would very much like to see a more rigorous study of safety issues and the various causes of death and serious injury. I feel that people (mostly the FEI) make changes they want to make, label them safety, but that those changes may not even be safe to make.

It’s heartbreaking to list incidents, but we all know that these need to be divided into various buckets, the most clean being “direct result of a cross-country obstacle” and “could have happened anywhere.” For example, Christopher Reeves’ accident, horrible as it was, could have happened on a stadium course.

The different causes need to be studied, too. We had a run of aortic ruptures several years back; I’m not sure what came back from the science on that. The recent case of a horse that was scratched from an event because the vet happened to listen to the heart from both sides may be serendipitously instructive.

I disagree that nothing has been done for the horses. Obstacles are smoother, making it less likely a horse will hang up or be hurt on one. Footing is better. Veterinary care is better. Horses last longer. I think some of the course design changes that may not be working for us were done out of concern for the horse - use of skinnies and arrowheads, for example, to create glance-off runouts. We never considered the cognitive load for the horse, that a good horse could possibly get mentally tired from trying to read the ground and every question.

I value Reed’s insights and wish we could get together a pot of money to fund him to study these issues professionally for a three year project.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8157239]
Recently. In the Short Format era.

For anyone interested in eventing risk management and safety, I found this site:
https://eventingsafety.wordpress.com/

Author is an Australian FEI TD, John Lechner. It’s worth reading. I’m not sure if it’s up to date, though.

I’ve just been doing some research on rider deaths in eventing competitions. I’ve gone back through 2008 on the LONE list (19 deaths), and only one or possibly two are not the result of rotational falls. One rather interesting factoid is that, except for one 15 yo Russian and this year’s Italian woman, all the deaths in eventing have been males.

Except for Winter, none since 2008 have been at CCIs. Most have been lower than 2*. There is one in a CIC3*. None have been in NA.[/QUOTE]

Rotational falls are without doubt the most dangerous, and we have made progress in reducing these falls through changes in fence design and frangible pins. So we need to study the best ways to further reduce these falls. So all we need as a start is a close study of the fences over which these falls have occurred along with the frequency of falls over particular fences. More info would of course be beneficial. There have been isolated falls over fences that have caused no problems at all for years - but nonetheless, one fall is one too many. I do like the idea of skinnies being used as it is quite possible that rather than fall, horses have the option of running out. But this also involves an increase in technical questions (a skinny is a technical question for most) to which many on this forum object. But there are other ways, of course, including frangible pins, to reduce R.Falls but studying these data more closely is much needed.

The data are there. One can access the fall and the fence number through USEA and then go to the course itself. I would be surprised if the safety committee does not have these data.

As for the other findings, I doubt it would be appropriate or politically correct to forbid men from competing. And if we decide to only allow competing at the CCI Level that would mean that most of us would be s-out of luck. I am pretty sure that this latter finding is simply due to the pretty obvious fact that there are far fewer competitors at the CCI level than at the HT level. Another possibility is that the standards for safety at the FEI level may be more stringent simply due to the level and risk and attention to safety. I suspect that the latter has less influence than the former, although I must admit that I have found that the local HT may not have as high a standard for fence design and safety than those at the international level. I have run more than one prelim and intermediate locally where I was concerned about safety (footing most often).

So, the preliminary data are there at least for more recent years. In the distant past, I really do not think there was the attention to safety and falls were considered sad but inevitable. We have made progress but not enough progress, and the very recent injuries are a big wake up call to work harder.

Let’s start an analysis on rotational falls, severity of injury to horse and rider, and type of fence. We do have the resources and we have some who are very gifted at gathering, collecting data. I can analyze data for sure, but have limited time to collect. This does not have to be under the auspices of a formal organization.

Or we can continue to discuss what someone else needs to do. Which is fine as well but most likely not being heard, especially amongst the chatter here on this forum.

Peace, :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8157171]
Yup, it’s easier to stadium jump if the horse isn’t tired. If your horse goes lame on XC, you can just throw it in a trailer and take it home. No need for a second jog.[/QUOTE]

Most of them prefer it first because they want to win and it is easier to leave all the rails up if they SJ before xc.

Organizers prefer SJ first (at HTs - no direct knowledge of FEI events) because the day runs more quickly and smoothly (a hold on xc does not affect other phases) and because you do weed out some handful of underprepared pairs on SJ.
Having watched most of the SJ rounds at our 3 recognized HTs per year for several years now, I am certain that a few of the eliminations we get every time would have gone on to fall on xc.
This is much more true at the lower levels than at Prelim or especially Intermediate.
Perhaps a reminder that the safety issues, and thus potential solutions, are likely different at I and up.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8157279]
Most of them prefer it first because they want to win and it is easier to leave all the rails up if they SJ before xc.[/QUOTE]

That is being too generous & overlooking what people will do to win. There have been comments that infer it’s jog related by our riders…

Either way - get the horses to a better state of fitness. It’s eventing, SN belongs last for a reason. Part of the test. A reason Why our riders do to succeed at the 4* level - this attitude.