Serum phosphorus is not a very useful measure because the body mobilizes phosphorus from bone to maintain serum phosphorus within a very narrow range.
He is getting roughly half of his phosphorus requirement from the platinum performance. It is possible that phosphorus intake is marginal and/or Ca:P is out of whack with alfalfa and beet pulp both being higher Ca feedstuffs, depends on where the hay tests.
Just seems strange that two horses from the same barn eating the same hay are having similar issues. Especially if hay is from the same county most likely growing same weeds/toxic plant. Look up Sorghum or Johnson Grass poisoning. It doesnāt affect all horses, but explains your horses symptons to a degree.
I agree luvmyhackney. Thatās why I asked the feed questions. I think thereās got to be a connection between the two horses having very similar symptoms, and one common link is the feed, pasture, other environmental commonalities.
Probably not this, but locoweed is in CO, right? It contains toxic levels of selenium even when dried. It also contains another toxin that makes horses ālocoā, that lessens as it dries.
[QUOTE=knic13;9029020]
Serum phosphorus is not a very useful measure because the body mobilizes phosphorus from bone to maintain serum phosphorus within a very narrow range.
He is getting roughly half of his phosphorus requirement from the platinum performance. It is possible that phosphorus intake is marginal and/or Ca:P is out of whack with alfalfa and beet pulp both being higher Ca feedstuffs, depends on where the hay tests.[/QUOTE]
You can test serum, plasma or urine, and even saliva, muscle biopsy, more. Standard tests are serum and plasma, even though they only measure phosphorus in the body, not the cell. RBC phosphorus is also tested in humans. Probably some vet lab somewhere that will test RBC phosphorus.
Gen gets 2 scoops of the Platinum Performance if that matters. He used to be on a RB, but I stopped that in October when this first started to see if there was any change. The TC is basically just for palatability. I could cut out the beet pulp and put him on a full ration of TC, which heās eaten pre-layup. Itās still beet pulp and alfalfa but different than the barnās foodā¦I buy and bag up everything else for him.
I donāt think the BO has a hay test but I can ask. All of the hay comes from the same farm. Itās in the same county as where the horses live. There is some visible variety per stackā¦itās all supposed to be the same cutting but looks like at least different fields. Alfalfa comes from a different farm.
Texas A&M can measure phosphorus levels in serum, plasma, ocular fluid and urine for $6.50. Turn around time is one day.
https://tvmdl.tamu.edu/tests/phosphorus/
Most common weeds that I can identify in the local hay are dandelion and mustard weed and sometimes young fox tails. Some farms have purple thistle. I havenāt seen any mustard weed or foxtails or thistle in the current batchā¦itās pretty darn leafy. Some dandelion.
Hay or pasture analysis services for as little as $18, on up to $79
http://equi-analytical.com/standard-analytical-services/
BUT, hay probe to extract hay samples is $130
http://equi-analytical.com/supplies/
Per vets, he shows no signs of a urinary blockage.
Giving him a once over again tonight, only other thing to note is itchy sheath and penis. Like, he lifted a back leg way up in the air for me to feel around up there. Thatās a little more into it than usual.
His manure had more balls than this morning but still more wet and a lot more poop in his stall than usual (I do a quick pick every evening). No rancid smells or anything. Lots of gas while I was there.
Just because a lab will run the test doesnāt mean the results are meaningful :).
Iām not disagreeing with your potential deficiency premise, but mineral metabolism is complex because there are multiple body pools and many minerals are moved dynamically between pools.
In the case of P it makes much more sense to run a complete feed analysis and compare P and Ava intake to NRC recommendations, account for antagonistic mineral concentrations and then explore further if dietary intake is marginal.
IPEsq, may I ask what the ādiarrhea panelā is? That was mentioned back on p.1, I think. Iām interested in what it looks for/rules out. Thanks, and I hope you get some more ideas for your guy from this thread.
I believe if you Google it plus equine, it will come up. Itās done by a lab in Sacramento I think and looks for the most common viral and bacterial pathogens for the horse, all in one test. From things like coronavirus to salmonella or clostridium. The commonality is that the things it looks for tend to cause diarrhea. We didnāt run it on October, because while horse had these other symptoms (but was relatively more forward), he didnāt have diarrhea. After 2 weeks of not going forward, vet and i discussed it again. After the cow patties this morning, I decided to go ahead and do it. Itāll cost in the neighborhood of $200-250 I think. Cheaper than a bone scan or throwing more darts at a wall.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;9029132]
I believe if you Google it plus equine, it will come up. Itās done by a lab in Sacramento I think and looks for the most common viral and bacterial pathogens for the horse, all in one test. From things like coronavirus to salmonella or clostridium. The commonality is that the things it looks for tend to cause diarrhea. We didnāt run it on October, because while horse had these other symptoms (but was relatively more forward), he didnāt have diarrhea. After 2 weeks of not going forward, vet and i discussed it again. After the cow patties this morning, I decided to go ahead and do it. Itāll cost in the neighborhood of $200-250 I think. Cheaper than a bone scan or throwing more darts at a wall.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I will keep an eye out if youāll be posting results.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;9028839]
Wouldnāt kidney/bladder stones cause blood in the urine?[/QUOTE]
Yes and no. Yes, if he has a stone or stones he will more than likely have blood, it just wonāt necessarily be gross (visible) hematuria. With what youāve put into this horse already, I think doing at least a urinalysis would be wise.
I might be projecting because I have dealt with my own kidney stones, but thatās what popped into my mind when I read your OP and then someone else mentioned it too. And it could explain the bizarre coming/going of his symptomsā¦he could be producing lots of little stones that hang around and pass once in a while.
Is there anything about the location of the saddle that would indicate a urinary tract issue? The other horse with most similar symptoms parks out all the time, while my horse does it under saddle. Now, he does pee u/s and not get punished for it. Vet thinks the parking out could be an evasion. He has some chronically hot acupuncture points in his lumbosacral area, and when I really dig in there, he also parks out. Some of these also are referral points for lower GI. It feels good because he gets the lip wiggling going on and will rock his butt around, so different from the squat of flinching away from sensitive points.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;9029156]
Vet thinks the parking out could be an evasion.[/QUOTE]
Riiighttttt. Horse ligthbulbsit and says, āAh-ha! If I sometimes park out in my stall, pretend like Iām in pain, sometimes scratch my sides so ya-all think Iām pointing to my tummy or innards, sometimes pretend to have colic symptoms, then park out US, make a little peeā¦Iāll get out of work!!! Yeahhhhh!! And while Iām at it, I think Iāll make a bunch of other sh** up thatās wrong with me, and fake it too!!ā.
Good vet.
Were there diagnostics indicating kidney issues, or are you thinking kidneys because of parking? Rear saddle panels sit on the lumbar. Kidneys are located under lumbar. Horse could exhibit lumbar pain, parking, stretching, scratching itās sides if he has a muscle disorder, like low selenium.
Minerals are so important. When minerals are off, the whole body has problems. When my magnesium was too low, I had many more migraines, neck pains. Felt much better after adding right form of magnesium. When my selenium got too high (just slightly toxic), I had increased muscle pains and spasms, nerve issues, increased fatigue. Got my selenium down to good level, and I felt much better. Iāve always had aches and pains. Had no idea that having too low serotonin causes aches and pains.
New to this whole situation and have not been following your previous posts so ignore me if this has already been said/done!
Have you checked for any tick/vector born diseases?
We were thinking but kidneys because of parking out but so far all tests normal, urine normal.
I asked my vet if he could have something like chronic Lyme from where he came from. He thinks itās highly unlikely based on these symptoms and that he hasnāt shown signs the first year here. Tick diseases are rare in this area.
since weāve established we are in the zebra zone (remember, we did discuss the possibility of bringing in a witch doctor for him, bad juju and that stuff) what about an enterolith? within the neighborhood of bladder stones, just as bad and painful and one of the many symptoms is reluctance to go forward, tail lifting, gassiness, etc.
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