WTF is wrong with my horse THIS time???

December was pretty darn good for us after sorting out a foot issue and making a diet change. He was forward, back to progressing over ground rails and cavaletti. Stopped his baby bucking shenanigans. Sometimes too forward, so we did a fair amount of walking cavaletti (walking to them but asking him to jump them not just step over and land in a soft canter). Acupuncture maintenance appt during this time notes none of the back soreness he usually has. A little in the lumbo-sacral area, but vet notes he’s the best she’s ever felt.

Cold snap at the beginning of January and he has several days off due to some icy conditions, arena footing freezing, too cold for their lungs, etc. We do hand walking as we are able and they are turned out once no more negative temps and ice.

Comes back into work NQR after that. Balking. Parking out as if to pee several times even though he’s just peed (usually he pees first thing under saddle). Or stops and lifts tail. May or may not pass anything. Overall, daily frequency of manure and manure consistency WNL for him. Drinking well but not eating quite as much hay. This is pre-diet change behavior. Reassess diet and ask staff to stop overfeeding beet pulp. A couple better days then back to balking. Back to eating more hay. We’re at absolutely NO GO under saddle. He is adamant about this. If I find a way to get him to go, he won’t keep going for very long. Wants to quit. Slamming on the brakes. Not interested in the baby jumps or even poles. Fusses with the bit or tries to chew on the rein or something rather than relax and look forward and ahead and go forward. (Teeth were done in October). Won’t walk with any kind of real pace. Question his belly comfort. Try RelyneGI at a vet’s recommendation. It’s been 12 days now no noticeable difference. Tried a Bute ride at vet’s recommendation (even though not good for belly), and no improvement in u/s behavior.

This is up there with his worst original neck pain behavior from early/mid 2015. EXCEPT, he is more willing to go forward in hand. With tack on and without. With different saddles on. Whether I’ve already been on his back or not. Looks sound. Takes deep breaths, appears to enjoy moving. Relaxed expression, some shenanigans but 110% better than he was in hand when everything blew up for us in early 2015.

His neck was last injected in September 2016. His ROM in his neck is still quite good. Chiro vet says his neck still feels markedly better than when she saw him pre-injections, and I agree as far as his carrot stretches go. Low back and lumbo/sacral area more sore. Nothing noted under saddle area.

Appetite is good. Still drinking well. Ground manners good (for him, lol). Had X-rayed his entire T-spine in 2015 with no kissing spines.

He had very loose manure this morning and a lot of gas, so I’m doing a “diarrhea panel”. His CBC/Chem was completely normal in late October, and vet feels like we don’t need to repeat. Dewormed for everything in October (Equimax and Quest, a couple weeks apart). Friend just texted me from the barn who has a horse with some similar weird things going on (also a history of lameness but completely different issues), and she says his manure looks ok now.

Friend’s horse has been unwilling to go forward and parking out for months. Overall more willing than mine but NQR. He also parks out just standing around. Mine does not. Then he started chewing on his sides very frequently. It was so bad, she thought he had an allergy to the detergent used to wash his blanket. She has quit riding him, tried injections for some of his suspected issues. He has also had loose manure the past couple of weeks. She thinks he’s been dull/lethargic as well. Temp and vitals normal, though, taken daily.

Another horse at the barn (my horse’s neighbor) this past week also started chewing on his sides and parking out under saddle. Noted by owner’s trainer. He was pawing and turning around in his stall a lot last night, as if he was going to roll but didn’t. He then went back to making snarky faces with my horse between the bars (their favorite game). I’ve never seen him do the pawing before. I told the owner just in case, and she had the vet out. I didn’t hear more about it, so I assume he was ok, not colic.

In December, I was finally thinking, THIS is my horse. Such a good feeling. Where did he go again? And WTF is up with my barn? The only thing the 3 horses have in common is the barn’s grass hay and beet pulp, which they make up from dry molasses-free shreds 2x a day.

I feel cursed. Time to wave more chicken bones on strings.

Are they only eating grass hay and beet pulp? What are you doing for vitamins? Where is the hay grown?

How long have you had this horse, how old is he, what kind of job does he do?

Color of Light, OP has had hell with this horse and persued every diagnostic avenue available at considerable expense fir 2 years thus month. There are several threads, including a huge one that ran most of 2015 and maybe into 2016, click on her user name and search “started threads”. There’s no other easy way for her to summarize in less then a couple of hours and 20 pages.

FOR OP…OH CRAP. What now?

Alright, since we’re 100% at the zebra point: have you considered scoping his bladder? Perhaps he’s got a stone rattling around in there that’s causing pain and the parking out to pee.

My horse gets vit/min supps, probiotics, other nutrition. All 3 of the horses are on a different diet except the only thing in common is the grass hay and beet pulp.

Simkie, vet seemed to think that was unlikely because his urine looks normal, he has no signs of bladder problem in terms of volume, the way he urinates, etc. No bean. We did check kidney levels among everything else on CBC and complete chem panel when we ran bloodwork in Oct when that started. Anything questionable we were going to pursue, but all values were squarely within normal ranges.

Chiro vet has suggested rectal ultrasound to look at SI area but also to poke around in there generally, pardon the phrase :slight_smile: She (chiro vet) thinks we may well be into the zebra phase. Regular vet is willing to do the diarrhea panel, has written off testing for anything tick-borne, and recommends nuclear scintigraphy at this point. However, the weird thing for this horse is that he’s pretty darn good except for under saddle. I’d like to say that’s from my awesome re-training of his groundwork (with skilled help), but I dunno…

Sounds like either bruised/sore kidneys or stones somewhere in his urinary tract. My best guess. There isn’t any weed in his hay or pasture that horse could possibly get that could cause kidney/bladder issues?

LOL. Thought I’d try to help the OP. She posted publically, sounds like he/she is hoping for new ideas they haven’t considered. I’m not going back through years of posts for simple info about basic questions. Based on what he/she posted, I have an idea but need more info.

Maybe this will help:
Only eating hay and beet pulp? (yes or no)
Vitamins? (product name, product name, product name)
Has is grown? (on farm, in the state, in X state)
Horse age? (enter age here)

I’ve had the horse? (X years)
Horse’s age? (X yrs)
Horse’s job is? (jumping, dressage, trail, breeding stallion, pasture puffing)

Thanks OP. I’m sorry you don’t have answers and cures yet. Based on the symptoms, could be not enough selenium, even if you’re giving him some. Has he been tested? When they don’t have enough, can have tying up-like symptoms. Their muscles spasm, tingling muscles, pains, feel funny. Low selenium also relates to immunity issues. Horse might be have no forward, too much forward, be cold backed, have back pain, spook, bolt under saddle, park out, kick, buck, have irregular gait behind, muscles might look underdeveloped, coat might be abnormal.

The reason I asked about vitamins and hay is that you mentioned common symptoms with a second horse. Made me think: what are commonalities between the two horses? Feed? Hay could be grown in low selenium area. If these horses go in pasture, where ever the farm is located could also be a low selenium area.

Colorado is not a low selenium area.

Color of Light:

Horse is 6 1/2. I’ve had him 2 years this month. His intended job is jumping.

Found stomach ulcers, effusion of nuchal ligament attachment at poll, and cervical arthritis within 60 days of owning him (yes, did a PPE with a good vet). Took some time but treated all of those things. Got him fit and jumping baby courses slow, straight, with a lead change. He used to be too forward because he didn’t have a good education to the hands, seat, legs, and he was anxious and liked to rush and fling himself around. Well on my way to fixing all of that and getting ready to school more off property. Horse then promptly runs around his pasture and bows a tendon. Stall rest 4.5 months. Treadmill for almost 3 months, started under saddle after 6 months (while still on treadmill). All things considered, a very easy rehab case. Tendon healed well. Gets 2.5-3 solid months under saddle. Wheels start to fall off. Grows over an inch. Saddle re-fitted. Neck re-imaged and shockwaved. Ulcer flare treated. Neck injected again. Find PO in RF foot, change shoeing and treat. Now caught up to this thread’s timeline.

He is eating:

Scant 2Qt scoop beet pulp soaked 2x day–Really like it to be more 1Qt, but I think they just get in a scooping routine… at least I stopped them from giving heaping scoops

1 flake alfalfa 3x day

2.5-3lbs of TC senior broken up to 3 feedings. Each with a scoop of Equishure (he used to get 1.5sc 2x day but now I do 1sc 3x day).

AM by syringe - Relyne GI

First 2 feedings:

  • Platinum Performance Equine Wellness for vit/min
  • Platinum Balance probiotics
  • Equishure as mentioned above
  • custom flax based HT supplement with Nutramino, 5g magnesium, copper, zinc, biotin
  • 4-5000 IU Vit E

The beet pulp is primarily to help him eat up the powdery things. He used to need it for calories but not so much anymore.

Last feeding, soaked in warm soup (because I make it):

  • Equishure as mentioned above,
  • trying 1-2tbsp fennel seed this past week, per thread here
  • RelyneGI
  • approx 100mL flax oil

Access to fancy pink salt which he loffs.

Grass hay and alfalfa is grown in the same county where he lives.

Grass hay is fed 4x a day. No fresh grass to eat–all died in the summer drought. He gets his hay fed in a rubbermaid trough in the paddock, or else he just sleeps in it.

He has not been tested for Se. Although Simkie is right, there is one horse at the same barn who did test low for E and Se this past summer, so it wouldn’t be too crazy to try testing for that. However, that horse is not one of the ones with the weird symptoms going on currently. I will have to ask if the other boarder tested for that. Like me, she’s run a lot of tests on her horse. She’s another sad case of buying a horse who then developed a host of problems.

I haven’t noticed any unusual weeds in the grass hay…the hay is not weed-free, but I’ve seen nothing out of the ordinary, and it’s not riddled with weeds or anything. The alfalfa is very good quality third cutting. Lots of leaves, tender stems, no weeds. There is absolutely nothing growing in my horse’s lot right now.

Wouldn’t kidney/bladder stones cause blood in the urine?

Just guessing here, but I’d say not necessarily, or intermittently?

There is nutrient concentration variability from field to field and even within field. Even though the area may not be selenium deficient in general, it is possible that the particular area this hay was harvested from is marginal for selenium.

It is easy and inexpensive to rule out, I see you are already supplementing Vit E but I would test Se and Vit E to rule them out before pursuing more invasive and/or expensive diagnostics.

Ugh OP, I am so sorry to hear this. I haven’t followed all the ugly details, but I know you’ve had your share of problems (as have I and I am retiring my 6 1/2 year old to my lovely daughter in law’s family farm) but I digress.

A good friend of mine just left a great heated barn with full service. They had a ton of colics this past year including 2 surgeries, several vet calls, and a death. I guess their hay was bad and was the cause. Could this be a possibility? Again, sorry if this has been looked into by you (which it probably has 'cuz you’re like me and leave no stone unturned :wink:

Idk I’m stumped. Perhaps put a call into CU though?

My thoughts also went to a urinary blockage but why would multiple horses have that simultaneously?!

I’m so sorry you’re going through this with your horse. Like all states, Colorado selenium levels vary by county. Some counties are on the low side, some are on the toxic side. Depending upon your area and amount of selenium in his feed, he could be deficient or he could be toxic.

Parts of CO has very high levels of manganese. High levels of manganese interfere with phosphorus absorption. Basic manganese requirements are 40ppm. Some counties of CO are as high over 9,000 ppm. It’s not said to be toxic to horses, but phosphorus could be off in the horse. In young and growing horses lack of phosphorus leads to bone growth problems. Phosphorus relates to cell energy thru production of ATP and ADP. Could be why he has no energy.

If he was mine, I’d test selenium and e, and phosphorus.

[QUOTE=Simkie;9028799]
Colorado is not a low selenium area.[/QUOTE]

Bit is OP’s hay grown locally, or out of state? Our barn gets all hay from Utah, I believe. Just an example that it isn’t grown locally (south of Denver). :slight_smile:

Dang, OP, I hope this is an easy fix.

OP, please google hypophosphatemia, a chronic renal disease caused by inadequate phosphorus intake.

1 Like

Have feed analyzed too. All hay. Beet pulp too. Never know where it came from or what exact analysis is. Not sure minerals are listed on label.

1 Like