I don’t think I am going to know TWO horses in my life who ate a lead rope 
I just shared the story to say “sometimes it’s truly something weird and you’re NEVER going to find out WHY until necropsy time” 
and maybe not even then
I do think something diet related that could be causing stones is a viable path to tread down, given that 3 horses with the same diet are having issues simultaneously
Oh, and I should clarify that the horses extend both front and hind feet. Weight is not shifted to the hinds. In my horse’s case, he gets pretty close to his exact pee stance, in which he comes up a bit on his hind toes with back feet wide and behind. The only thing missing from when he pees is dropping the penis and raising the tail (he flips it up over his back like a baby)…he’ll only raise the tail up a little bit to pass gas or not at all. Sometimes, he will drop his nose to the ground and not fully park out but sort of shuffle with slow, small steps stretched and hollowing his lower back, thinking about stopping and stretching full out but not. This is usually when he’s in trouble and doesn’t want to try anymore but hasn’t completely shut down. I haven’t seen the Dutch horse park out. The other one stands flat footed but is stretched out both in front and behind. And he does this very frequently–no correlation to wearing tack, exercise, or having a rider.
Sounds a lot like gas colic to me. Having multiple horse presenting the same would make me want to look at the common elements in the effected horses diets.
If it were me I’d*start soaking the horses hay, and see if anything changes after three days on soaked hay.
To soak the hay… Put hay in a muck tub, submerge with with water, let it soak for at least four hours (or over night), then drain.
Soaking hay can remove mold or anything else that may be on the hay. It also adds water to the horses diet.
Many horses tend to colic in cold weather or during abrupt temperature changes. Some theorize that temperature change can effect a horses intestinal flora.
Giving a probiotic to horses during the winter months can be a good idea.
Dry winter air is dehydrating. A horse should drink more in the winter than in the summer.
Some horses drink more when given warm water in the winter.
Also look at the water source to be sure there is no contamination. Water quality can be tested.
Beat pulp can have mold problems too. If all bags are from the same manufacturing run, they may all have mold.
The same goes with moldy hay. Just because it comes from the same farmer it does not mean that it’s all cut, baled, and stored the same.
Some hay farmers who switch to using propionic acid grass hay preservatives, have know idea how to apply it properly. I’ve seen entire barns with multiple “mystery” colics turn out to be caused by over application of propionic acid.
Propionic acid will retard mold growth, and the Propionic acid will eventually dissipate in concentration in the bale. But it’s not meant to preserve hay baled at over 19%-20% moisture content. Some hay farmers will try this and the result can be bales that will mold in different, more difficult to detect ways, than grass hay baled without preservatives at 15%-18% moisture content.
Look at the hay, water, and the beet pulp for mold or contamination. Mold testing is available too.
I’m not saying that’s the issue, just that it’s the first thing I’d look into based on my experience with mysteries like these.
I have no ideas on the OP’s horse, but the zebra reference in medicine comes from Occam’s razor. I have also heard the term “chasing zebras” (or is that zebra?) when someone is only considering exotic diagnoses when there is something more obvious and likely.
[QUOTE=Color of Light;9029160]
Riiighttttt. Horse ligthbulbsit and says, “Ah-ha! If I sometimes park out in my stall, pretend like I’m in pain, sometimes scratch my sides so ya-all think I’m pointing to my tummy or innards, sometimes pretend to have colic symptoms, then park out US, make a little pee…I’ll get out of work!!! Yeahhhhh!! And while I’m at it, I think I’ll make a bunch of other sh** up that’s wrong with me, and fake it too!!”.
Good vet.[/QUOTE]
Well, if I heard the OP right, her horse is parking out and refusing to go forward. I didn’t see where he is scratching at his sides. That was another horse (I think).
This CAN be a learned behavior if the horse perceives the owner’s reaction as a reward. The horse doesn’t have to do the kind of reasoning you laid out (which, of course, would be absurd). I don’t know that this is the case, but it is a very reasonable possibility as a result of simple operant conditioning.
If the horse parked out, and the rider let him do it then ended the ride, there you go. A reward. Same with the peeing and pooping.
My horse has learned some similar tricks that were initially triggered by pain (lumbar arthritis). He has not forgotten his bag of tricks and will pull them out on a whim – especially after a break in training.
He has also learned to pee and poop on command and will do this for a treat. Sometimes he’ll park out when he doesn’t have to pee and just look at me, hoping for a treat. Horses do learn these things, and they do train us, whether we know it and want to admit it or not. Mine certainly have trained me very well. 
I always thought stretching out to pee like that, but not actually peeing was a sign of colic or at least mild discomfort?
He doesn’t scratch at his sides but that’s long term pretty normal behavior for him. He is always itchy. It’s new behavior for the other horses. Although I suppose my guy may be doing it more under tack than usual.
Attended the talk at CSU last night. It was a dinner sponsored by Platinum, so I got some more of the balance and can up that (the probiotic). His usual ration of it is in a daily packet with the vit/min…I didn’t have a tub.
Also spoke with a couple of his vets there including the one with the story of the other horse’s castration complication. This is his primary sports medicine specialist who treats his neck. She thought rectal ultrasound, abdominal ultrasound, inguinal ultrasound, and bone scan all seemed like reasonable diagnostics at this point. She also thinks we are in the range of weird that she really wants to look at the inguinal area. But I remembered her saying ultrasound may not be good enough. Not wanting to jump to surgery. She said we could try blocking there. I said, you can put a block there??? She said, well, we might die, but in theory yes. (Horse threatens to kick if you just feel around up there too much).
She did also suggest looking at the hay and barn’s water source.
They did say that if the poop panel is clean but his symptoms persist with the gut stuff that they’d want me to run another round of blood work before bringing him to the clinic for anything.
Do I recall that this horse was very itchy in the sheath area? Lifting up the leg to get scratched? Which leg, does it correspond to the inguinal ring side? Is it absolutely certain that there is no hernia with that?
Obviously I had the same thoughts as your vets at CSU! I didn’t even read your last post, I was pondering this thread this morning.
I’m sorry for what you’re going through, OP. I am not a vet and don’t have any specific suggestions but I really think that with three horses at the same barn displaying similar symptoms, it HAS to be feed or environmental. That’s where I would focus.
I knew an old barn where horses living in the corner stalls foundered one after another. At least one died. It turned out that the posts in the corner stalls had been treated with something toxic a long, long time ago, before horses lived there. Too bad it took so much equine misery before that became apparent.
Look for commonalities in their diet and environment. Don’t rule out things that asymptomatic horses in the barn are exposed to as well though, because some are more sensitive than others.
Best of luck! Jingles for your guy.
This might already have been considered and I know its fairly unlikely but maybe he has a urinary tract infection? It could make sense in terms of how quickly it came on and his behavior under saddle but better hand walking. Worth taking a urine sample. Infection could have spread to kidney as well
[QUOTE=keysfins;9030873]
Do I recall that this horse was very itchy in the sheath area? Lifting up the leg to get scratched? Which leg, does it correspond to the inguinal ring side? Is it absolutely certain that there is no hernia with that?[/QUOTE]
Yes and it does happen to be the leg on that side. He also will sometimes try to scratch back there and will lift a leg. I just figured he lifted that leg because it’s the side where he has the better neck ROM…he still gets itchy at least on the belly on the other side sometimes but he doesn’t like to try to reach around the other side because it’s hard for him. It is not certain that there’s no issues up there. We are just pretty certain there’s no testicle. The vet thinks hernia is unlikely. The thought is there could be a complication involving the spermatic cord stump…based on the unlikely event that this vet would see it happen twice in her practice.
Larkspur, I am having someone else work with the horse at least once a week. I had a trainer riding 1-2x a week who was doing really well with him. Might have been part of why he did so well in December. After the holidays, though, I haven’t been able to get a call back from them. There’s a rider at my barn who has started working with him since this recent complete shutdown. She starts by doing a lot of the groundwork with him. She gets him fairly amped up with that, which is normal for where he is in his groundwork training. He gets a little belligerent or mad then overreacts on the anxious side. We can bring him back down on the ground, and his explosions are shorter and shorter. So far, he goes forward for her when she rides, but it is his classic anxiety slow motion running away, if that makes sense. Basically, the out of control youngster I spent many months undoing. I’m not criticizing her at this stage because going forward needs to be the right answer, but I am taking a wait and see approach. I’ve been here before. Giving him over to professionals to have them make him toe the line and go forward, working mostly on the ground (in the past, I had fewer people willing to hop on). You could get him “over it” on a given day most of the time, but the shutting down never went away fully. So, I guess I’m just seeing deja vu of spring 2015 when my vet was thinking it was just a behavior problem. But that time, injecting the neck made the shutting down go away completely and immediately (once he had some recovery time off, of course). It is just not normal for him to have to be in this fight to stay just on the winning side of having an unrideable horse.
He has also occasionally parked out as an evasion. But at those times, I just leg him on and he says, oh, okaaay. Lately, he says FU Mom and then parks back out, puts his nose on the ground, sometimes closes his eyes and this goes on forever.
[QUOTE=Libby2563;9030924]
I’m sorry for what you’re going through, OP. I am not a vet and don’t have any specific suggestions but I really think that with three horses at the same barn displaying similar symptoms, it HAS to be feed or environmental. That’s where I would focus.
I knew an old barn where horses living in the corner stalls foundered one after another. At least one died. It turned out that the posts in the corner stalls had been treated with something toxic a long, long time ago, before horses lived there. Too bad it took so much equine misery before that became apparent.
Look for commonalities in their diet and environment. Don’t rule out things that asymptomatic horses in the barn are exposed to as well though, because some are more sensitive than others.
Best of luck! Jingles for your guy.[/QUOTE]
Hmm…well, the hot fence hasn’t been hot for a little while and the horses have figured it out. I caught mine chewing on one of the posts the other day. But, there’s one horse out 24/7 who is a terrible cribber on those posts (even when the fence was hot–he figured out how not to touch it), and he’s never acted sick.
At the talk at CSU one of the vets gave a recommendation for a hay analysis place. Another boarder came with me and while I was talking to one of my vets after the presentation, she said, oh, my horse has been parking out too and he had loose manure a week ago. I didn’t know this. He lives out in one of the bigger fields. So, I think we are going to both go in on doing a hay test at least.
Jeebus, so does that make FOUR horses with odd behavior at your barn? At least, that you know of?..
IIWM, I would be feeding my own hay (even if that means a bit of logistics difficulty and expense to do so), and my own/different brand beet pulp. I think you already bag up his hard feed + supplements, if I remember. What do the other horses eat?
Get the hay analysis. Have a person from the County Ag department out to walk the fields, even if they are dormant. And ask the Ag agent how to test the water. ((I think snow is due again for you, so maybe try to do the outside part next week.))
Any chance the horses are eating their bedding? What does the barn use for bedding? Are they all on the same bedding? Anything sprayed in stalls, walls, arena footing?
It may be time to think like a forensics investigator. Walk into the barn, stop, and look at the daily routine for your horse. Start in the stall, walk the aisles as if you just pulled him out, bring out your tack, the whole deal. Check the feed room and hay barn. Ask the BM if the hay has any curing agent or preservative used by the grower or broker. Walk the route your horse goes to turnout. Scour the turnout he’s in, and others if they rotate. Every inch.
Look at everything he might have contact with, eat or lick, and what he might be doing that you are not aware of, maybe while in turnout. Then do the same for the other horses you know about. Write down notes as you go, you never know when a pattern will jump out.
It is just really OFF that you have multiple horses showing the same distinct behavior, all of whom are in that facility. I have to guess that there is physical discomfort as a common theme with each of them. It would be just awful if there was exposure to a toxin, mold or other agent that all the affected horses share.
Have you had a heart to heart with the BO? Perhaps a real test would be to move him somewhere else for a month, and see what changes: in daily practices by another BO, and in your horse’s behavior/illness.
Barring all else when you get all of the results back, have a sage burning ceremony.
CH/MH?
(Can’t hurt, might help, right?)
I had a talk with the BO back in October when I was trying to figure out how to try him out on different hay for a couple weeks. But, as far as I know, no other horses had issues then. As far as having a heart to heart with the BO…I’m a little afraid to do that as the farm is for sale and they are going through a bit of an “I’m so tired of dealing with all the stress of having horses and a farm” moment. If those of us affected do some detective work and find a problem, we can tell BO about it, but I just don’t want to be THAT boarder.
They get bulk sawdust for bedding. We just got a new load in this week. Each load lasts a decent amount of time…couple months?
My horse has been in the same paddock for most of the time he has been at this barn (May)…he had a little bit of time in the adjoining paddock then moved when one horse left and he felt too alone being at the far end. I periodically pick out his paddock, as the barn staff doesn’t pick/harrow except near the sheds for few horses out 24/7. There’s not a thing growing in his paddock right now. There’s probably enough in the other pastures for someone to get an idea of what’s out there. That’s a good idea about asking the local Ag office about how to test the water. Hadn’t thought of that.
This last horse I mentioned is out 24/7 and while they do put sawdust in the shelters, those horses spend very little time in the shelters. The other 2 horses are also in individual turnouts and have not moved/rotated. There’s been some turnout shuffling going on recently as some boarders have come and gone, but not affecting our horses.
The horses all have auto waterers. Mine prefers to use buckets to dunk his hay in in the stall, which I dump and refill 1-2x day. He has his own waterer in the paddock.
Diet for the other horses…
Mine’s the only one getting alfalfa. One gets TC30 plus some supplements recommended by their vet. One gets just beet pulp to give him something to do…owner may have added Platinum Performance now but I’m not sure; no grain. The last one I think gets some of one of the Nutrena grains the barn is on. All get beet pulp, as does the majority of the barn.
As for sanitary conditions, there are mice in the feed room. The cats are good but not that good. They do not get into his grain, because I have it in a tupperware type thing not a bag. Never seen a hole chewed. But they probably can get to the beet pulp–it’s made in a big plastic tub inside of a wheelbarrow, but they don’t often put the lid on. Hard grains and supplements are added to buckets in advance, beet pulp is added shortly before grain is taken to stalls and dumped. Only my grain/supps stays in the tupperware sitting inside the bucket until ready to be mixed with beet pulp–seems to be easiest that way for the guys. Hay is fed off of a flatbed. Stalls are mucked into buckets that are then dumped in a spreader. Shavings are delivered by separate wheelbarrow, so generally there’s no mixing of hay, manure, shavings. Each have their own delivery vessel. The aisle is kept very clean. I have my own tack locker. There’s a separate grooming area that we all share.
Test the individuals who are sick. Eliminate a few things. Some obvious possible connection between the horses could be phosphorus deficiency and selenium level issues due to eating same hay and being on the same heavy manganese soil, both of which are easy and inexpensive tests to run. You’d get results in a few days. Run CBC on at least your horse but ideally all sick ones at the same time. Compare results. Also consider toxic heavy metal test. (Arsenic, Lead, Cadmium, Mercury, Thallium)
If this isn’t too urgent of a matter, don’t worry about eliminating basic diagnostics on all the sick individuals. If you have lots of time and money, test hay, feed, try him on different hays, get a rectal ultrasound, abdominal ultrasound, inguinal ultrasound, bone scan, move him to a different farm. And still might be some simple indication that would show up on basic blood tests.
I am new to this thread, but I have not seen any reference to changing his diet. Why not put him on bagged alfalfa pellets or cubes and a bagged well known pelleted feed (like Strategy).
If there is a chance he might be allergic to something in his feed, or if the hay is not providing appropriate nutrition, it seems logical to change his feed altogether to make sure that no part of his problems are feed based.
The easiest way to know exactly what he is eating is to get bagged feed from reputable feed companies; the labels will tell you the % of each ingredient.
If you have already tried this (and if that had been discussed in the prior thread, sorry)
Also, isn’t there a good vet school/medical center in Colorado? Why not send him there for a total nose to tail work up? It might cost more up front, but in the long run, it might be cheaper.
CSU is not far from the OP, I believe. They’re pretty good.
LH, IpEsq has been working with CSU since the start of all this, which is the vet school in Colorado
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