Unfortunately, right now the seller is still refusing the take back the horse even with the vet reports sent to her and full disclosure (meaning she could speak directly to the vet).
I have contacted a lawyer today, and it seems that I will have to go that way - not what I would have hoped for at all.
I have the horse booked for a follow up with the vet in a week, to do injections to his hock. But, there is zero guarantee as to the result…he isn’t responding very well to the Prevacox at the moment. That will cost me another 700 or so, on top of the 756 that I spend on day 10 of having him ;(
Depending on the outcome of the lawyer route, I may just end up finding him a home where he could be used for light riding…and again that depends on the results of treatment. Otherwise, I may end up putting him down (if I have exhausted all possible options to keep him sound) because I don’t have the ability to keep him as a lawn mower and can’t trust that finding him a companion home would ever benefit him long term…
So you are going to inject the hock? But still want to return him? Personally, I wouldn’t bother with injections if I was still trying to send the horse back. What if the injections went poorly and there was a reaction at the site? Abscess or infection? That’s not a risk I would personally take if I was actively trying to get the horse back to its original owner, IMO.
As far as the other option you gave yourself. IME, and I am experienced with this in particular, putting a horse down for a moderately arthritic hock seems extreme. Horses can be maintained for many years with injections. They can also be serviceably sound for all sorts of riding activities with an arthritic hock. But that might not be a route you want to go.
Did you xray the other hock as well?
Not to defend the breeder/seller, but he very well could have been sound at the breeders farm.
“Moderate” arthritis on xrays doesn’t always equal noticeably lame horse. Arthritis shown on xrays very frequently does not correlate to degree of soundness or lameness. Maybe the road trip aggravated him - sounds like it since you noticed he looked sore all over. Crazy things happen in trailers. Did you happen to ultrasound the hock as well to rule out an acute soft tissue injury?
What is the horses intended job/discipline?
This is just a bad situation all the way around. I do not agree with “Buyer Beware”. I believe in full, HONEST, disclosure. However, sometimes the seller is 100% honest and things like this happen. Personally, I believe it is very possible that the horse was sound at the Seller’s facility. A long trailer ride can cause even the soundest horse to become sore. Soreness often equals bucking/rearing due to discomfort. The changes on the x-rays COULD be incidental findings. I would give the horse a few weeks off and then start from there. A few weeks of turn-out may do wonders in this situation. This is a very simple step before jumping to injections, lawyers, and possible euthanasia.
I have in WRITING from the vet that this condition is at least one year old, to show the type of arthritic changes seen on the floriscope - this is best vet in our area as well, very well regarded. It was confirmed by the vet that this issue could not have been caused in transit.
The existence of changes which according to vet have been there for a year is NOT evidence that the horse was lame from this condition all that time or that the seller was even aware of the issue. That is the flaw in your logic.
If you are still wanting to return him, don’t do any invasive procedures like hock injections.
[QUOTE=Crockpot;7448877]
The existence of changes which according to vet have been there for a year is NOT evidence that the horse was lame from this condition all that time or that the seller was even aware of the issue. That is the flaw in your logic.
If you are still wanting to return him, don’t do any invasive procedures like hock injections.[/QUOTE]
agreed. And a horse who was sore all over (probably from shipping) doesn’t usually come perfectly sound so fast. Since OP said within two weeks he was sound to the naked eye, I highly doubt the changes found on X-rays is why he is bucking under saddle.
He he could just have ulcers. Hell, his life has been dramatically changed. Most horses take some time to settle in.
I feel bad for this horse.
For a 5 yr old who has little work to have arthritis is abnormal and a HUGE red flag. Now already you are starting to pour $$ into this horse – I agree with others and say “STOP!”
Instead, try some turn-out and just some bute. Has he even been on bute since arriving? You don’t need to jump to THE most expensive step right away.
Again, the horse has been there a week…plenty of time for him to loosen up from a long trailer ride.
As for giving him away…well, he would no longer be your responsibility, but that doesn’t mean there would be a happy ending. Horses with issues often get bounced around ALOT, and that could prove to be crueler in the long run than euthanasia.
When someone takes a “free” horse they often don’t want to spend even more $$ on stuff like hock injections and other high-tech remedies.
I don’t know how much the shipping costs were, but if you are about to spend $700 on one set of hock injections, another 2 sets would ship him to just about anywhere in the country.
Stop pouring $$ into this horse.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7448889]
agreed. And a horse who was sore all over (probably from shipping) doesn’t usually come perfectly sound so fast. Since OP said within two weeks he was sound to the naked eye, I highly doubt the changes found on X-rays is why he is bucking under saddle.
He he could just have ulcers. Hell, his life has been dramatically changed. Most horses take some time to settle in.
I feel bad for this horse.[/QUOTE]
No, she didn’t say he was sound. She said:Skip forward to Feb 13th - horse still sore, hardly visible to the naked eye but he is rearing and bucking undersaddle when asked to work.
A healthy 5 yr old should have recovered in one week from any tightness from shipping, unless he went directly from the trailer to a box stall and never came o/o of it.
I’ve shipped dozens of horses of all ages all across the country and even mares in foal were moving freely after 7 days. The horse I sold who was comparable to the OP’s (a 4 yr old with about 90 days u/s training) went from north ID; just 90 miles south of the Canadian border to southern FL…his new owner gave him 2 days of turn-out and then was riding him on day #3. No buck, no rear, no issues.
For a young horse to be having all these problems is simply abnormal and does not bode well for the future. While I have some sympathy for the animal, the OP did not sign up to take on all these problems.
If she is going to do so, she needs to get her $$ back from the breeder. Otherwise, the horse needs to go back to the breeder and be HER problem.
Naturally she doesn’t want to take the horse back…nobody wants to be responsible for a horse that could easily live another 15-20 yrs. and cost $10’s of thousands of $$ while doing virtually nothing to earn their keep.
Is it a sad story, and in the end both the OP & the horse will pay for the breeder’s lack of either knowledge or honesty…but the world can be a cruel place. Not all stories have happy endings.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7448925]
No, she didn’t say he was sound. She said:Skip forward to Feb 13th - horse still sore, hardly visible to the naked eye but he is rearing and bucking undersaddle when asked to work.
A healthy 5 yr old should have recovered in one week from any tightness from shipping, unless he went directly from the trailer to a box stall and never came o/o of it.
.[/QUOTE]
Unless there is a soft tissue issue…or other muscle pull…or he has ulcers. It could be ANY number of things…but most of which sound like they were resolving fairly quickly.
He could also just buck under saddle with her…after all, it doesn’t sound like she went to go try him.
To me it is a sad story for sure…but I’m not totally buying it is all the seller’s fault or that they were that dishonest. If I was the seller…I would have taken the horse back for his sake but honestly, I wouldn’t sell to a person like the buyer. I’ve learned if they are serious, they will come out and try the horse and do a PPE…otherwise, I would worry about just these sort of issues.
None of what has occured indicates to me that the seller was dishonest. Had the seller recently done radiographs on the horse? Did the seller ride the horse every day? It sounds like the horse did very little work at the sellers and that you were the first person to radiograph the horse.
I could truthfully say to someone that the young horses in my field are sound and have never been lame but they may very well have undiagnosed athritis. If I’ve never radiographed the horse, and never asked a lot of it consistently under saddle, it may be sound under those circumstances. If the seller did not know about the arthritis, they couldn’t disclose it. The horse may have been sound every day it lived at the sellers and they communicated as much to you. Just because the vet says the changes have been happening for year does not mean the horse was ever unsound before or that the seller knew about what was going on inside the horse’s joints.
It doesn’t matter how much you trust someone, you can’t expect them to know about something that may have had no outward signs.
I haven’t read all the posts so maybe someone else has pointed this out.
When you put the shoes on the horse you then “alterated” him and thus he became yours. Anytime you make a change to the horse after you purchase it you have accepted the ownership of that horse and the seller does not have to take it back. Even with a PPE and soundness contract. And alterating the horse can be as simple as pulling a long mane, reseting shoes, clipping, ect. that most of us consider good grooming.
I’m not saying this is right, just that it is the way the law looks at it.
I’m unsure how anybody surmised that this horse recovered or is now sound? I NEVER indicated that on any post! He is less sore on soft ground, and visibly sore even with anti inflammatory drugs on hard ground.
Yes, what I laid out long term is worst case scenario - I would never put the horse down until I had exhausted ALL possible soundness remedies. My general point was that I wouldn’t simply give this horse away to someone as a companion animal…out of respect for the horse because he will need continuing care.
The horse is well broke and certainly did work at the seller’s barn. Seller is a trainer, breeder and “professional”.
With regards to injections, I need to have him injected to see if it will help him at all. The lawyer stuff with the seller could take months, years, not go in my favour etc… so I wouldn’t want to leave the horse uncomfortable.
If he was simply trailer sore, wouldn’t one think that he’d be recovered by now. He arrived in my care Feb 6th, diagnosed by the vet Feb 17th.
[QUOTE=Amoroso;7449223]
If he was simply trailer sore, wouldn’t one think that he’d be recovered by now. He arrived in my care Feb 6th, diagnosed by the vet Feb 17th.[/QUOTE]
Not if he has sore feet and/or ulcers. A horse that came back to me from a lease LAME…took me all summer to resolve. Her issue was bad shoeing. It took several cycles of shoes to get her feet resolved. Until we got her feet well…she was sore in her back, in her hocks…everywhere and very unhappy. It took a while to bring her around. Feet unfortunately take time.
Ulcers can come on very fast (from shipping) also result in a sore unhappy horse–and not resolve unless treated.
Another note that I should add…to clarify.
The farrier put the hoof testers on him and there was no soreness found anywhere…
Based on your side of the story it sounds like you got hosed. I get why you would trust a former trainer about a horse you knew. I don’t think that is THAT weird. Yes, you should have done a PPE, but it is what it is.
I also would look into ulcers. Stress of traveling, but also stress of the arthritis or chronic pain. Might take care of you bucking issue. I would just do a week of Gastro/Ulcer Gard and see what happens. I’m not talking about a scope. I assume your saddle fits correctly, etc. Hock pain can lead to back pain–something to consider. You may have some chronic pain you need to get under control.
How bad are the hock changes? Is it possible the injury is from something else? I’ve had some older horses with REALLY bad hock x-rays still not act like your guy. I’m just wondering if something else wrong…not sure how full of a workup you did? Maybe you still aren’t at the bottom of the problem?
Was your farrier pleased with the feet? I would get a couple x-rays of the feet if you end up doing any further diagnostic. I always like to have some on file anyway for future reference–particularly with a QH (seen lots of navicular). It’s nice he didn’t hoof test, but how was everything else down there?
Just rambling off a few ideas. I agree with those that wouldn’t do injections at this point, particularly if you think you may be able to return him, but see how some turnout treats him. Good luck.
If lawyers are now involved, then it would be best not to discuss this any further on a public bulletin board. 
[QUOTE=Dressage Fancy;7449194]
I haven’t read all the posts so maybe someone else has pointed this out.
When you put the shoes on the horse you then “alterated” him and thus he became yours. Anytime you make a change to the horse after you purchase it you have accepted the ownership of that horse and the seller does not have to take it back. Even with a PPE and soundness contract. And alterating the horse can be as simple as pulling a long mane, reseting shoes, clipping, ect. that most of us consider good grooming.
I’m not saying this is right, just that it is the way the law looks at it.[/QUOTE]
Citation?
When you put the shoes on the horse you then “alterated” him and thus he became yours. Anytime you make a change to the horse after you purchase it you have accepted the ownership of that horse and the seller does not have to take it back. Even with a PPE and soundness contract. And alterating the horse can be as simple as pulling a long mane, reseting shoes, clipping, ect. that most of us consider good grooming.
Are “alterated” and “alterating” even words?
I hope not. What do they add to “altered” and “altering”
I’m guessing you won’t find them in any laws or caselaw.
Did she ask the seller if this horse had ever had any issues under saddle? She doesn’t mention this, but if the seller said “no” and the horse has been ridden (fairly) extensively, then the bucking & rearing could be an issue.
As for the PPE, of course the Buyer should have done this…I think she realizes that now…but that still doesn’t mean the horse couldn’t have hurt themselves in transport or, for that matter, developed ulcers in transport.
But the bottom line is the horse has been lame since it arrived and it is NOT resolving.
The Seller should be more interested in a resolution (although, granted, we have only the Buyer’s POV on that matter).
Again, while I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone buy one of my horses without a PPE, I’ve sold 90% of my stock to people off nothing but a video and had only 1 customer who ultimately sold the horse within a year because they did not get along. But even she admitted that she simply wasn’t willing to put the time in (which I’d told her in advance she was going to have to do to form a real partnership with the horse).
Of course, if it’s a riding horse I NEVER recommend a purchase without putting rider & horse together prior. Mainly for the sake of the horse, because I’ve discovered most riders greatly overestimate their ability.
We assume the Buyer had not ridden this horse before although she said something about “knowing” the horse from before.
Tons of info missing, but what IS obvious is that this horse is loaded with issues, almost none of which the Buyer is willing to deal with…
Thanks, Crockpot. That post was pretty whacky. I have never heard of terms of sale contingent upon altering the horse purchased. It sounds pretty made up to me. As to “alterating”, now that’s magical thinking, I thingnk.
Personally, I am entirely capable of imagining that the horse is body sore weeks later from the shipping. When a horse is sore, he usually splints (holds himself tightly elsewhere) and/or compenates often making himself sore in cascades and unrelated areas. Shipped horses as pointed out can develop ulcers quickly. There is alot about this horse which doesn’t mean he was lame when he stepped onto the trailer, but indicates that he was sore and stressed stepping off of it.
Also, the OP said he was “lame all over”. She also claims he was not sensitive to hoof testers, so it seems that she is pretty much able to confirm that this horse was body sore.
If the OP wants to return the horse, she should put it on a trailer and ship it off right away. If she doesn’t, then she needs to take some time and help this obviously sore horse sort himelf out. Put him on omeprazole to help his tummy, anti inflamatories to help with acute pain, inject his hocks according to the vet dx, attend to his feet correctly, and turn him out and let him heal.
Just changing his angles and putting shoes on could make him body sore for a while. I don’t beleive anyone can correctly say how long a horse “should” be sore. If he’s asymetrical, out of synch, and just plain sore, he might be that way until the change in season and until the new owner sorts him out.
Especially since the new owner can’t find anything specifically horrible to be worried about, it sounds to me like she’s someone wanting to find support to send a horse back with general soreness she doesn’t want to have to deal with. Forgive me if there is a specific diagnosis which predisposes this horse to performing for you, but you have yet to disclose anytghing which can’t be resolved with a little attention, so I am not sympathetc.
