WWYD - horse arrives after purchase lame, osteoarthritis

[Amoroso]

So, here’s the story:

Bought a 5 yr old AQHA gelding from a breeder and trainer, who I thought was also a friend. I knew the horse from when I lived out in Alberta. Did not do a PPE (bad choice now) as I was buying from a friend and didn’t think I’d have an issue.

Horse arrives in my care Feb 6th, and is noticed to be off basically all over. Figure that he is sore from the haul… Next day, horse is still lame, more noticeably on hard ground. So…farrier comes out and puts shoes on all around.
Skip forward to Feb 13th - horse still sore, hardly visible to the naked eye but he is rearing and bucking undersaddle when asked to work.
Call vet and make appointment.
Vet appointment is on day 10 that I’ve had the horse and we find moderate osteoarthritis in his right hind. Something also wrong with left front but I didn’t investigate further as I figured the horse would go back.
Call trainer/breeder/owner and she won’t take the horse back…says that these types of ailments are “NORMAL” and that it is just maintenance.
So utterly upset it isn’t funny… I bought this horse to be able to have fun and now I’m stuck with a lame horse that I need to do hock injections on and hope they work.

I bred in Alberta and certainly would not have handled this in the same manner. What would you do? Is this normal?

[eclipse]

Sadly you’ve learned the hard way that there’s no friends when buying horses…always do a PPE and get a bill of sale. Sorry you’ve got what a lame, sore, horse but you didn’t do your due diligence…sucks, but this is why you should always always do a vet check! Seller doesn’t have to take horse back, that would probably be the most ethical thing to do, but she doesn’t have to…you bought and paid and didn’t check! And, no, these ailments in a 5 yr old are not normal but lesson learned!

[Daventry]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Eclipse. As a Buyer, it is up to you to do your own due diligence. That means coming to see the horse in person, and at the very least, doing a pre-purchase exam. Most Bill of Sales state the horse is sold as is, with no further warranties…especially if you have waived your right to view the horse in person and waived your right to a pre-purchase exam.

Where you may have a case, is if the Buyer stated in writing that the horse was 100% sound and you can prove there was no disclosure. But even then, it is hard to prove that it was a pre-existing condition that the owner knew about ahead of time…as the horse could have come up lame during transport (i.e. trailering aggravated the problem that the owner wasn’t aware of, etc.). As an Equine Appraiser, I get hired frequently to help deal with cases like this, but they normally don’t go anywhere, as most horses are sold as is and it’s often extremely difficult to prove the owner knew about a pre-existing condition.

If the Seller is a friend of yours, ethically, most people would assume the friend would take the horse back and refund your money…but unless that is written into the Sales Agreement, there is nothing saying the Seller has to do that, friend or not.

[Fourbeats]

Yup, I learned the hard way too. Now, if it’s being sold as a sound riding horse, I want a PPE on it.

[Foxtrot_s]

It sounds as though she knew the horse was a bit off if she considers these things NORMAL. Still, she should have mentioned the NORMAL aches and pains the horse had.

Totally unethical. Does she not have a reputation she values?

[SouthernYankee]

Just out of curiosity since this horse is a QH what has it been doing the first 5 years of its life?

I think we are all in agreement that you should have gotten a PPE and the seller does not have to take the horse back. And you’re stuck with a horse with maintenance.

But I ask what the ‘horse has done’ because of the friends/sellers response. If it’s a reining horse it is possible that at 5 this is a ‘common’ ailment. Those horses have a very nice handle on them and are very fun horses to have, but that handle typically comes with quite a bit of wear and tear on their bodies. I’ve known of top reining bred yearlings with OCDs and/or arthritis. And it wasn’t a big shock for the vet and owners. Thankfully I can say I have a reining QH that is sound with zero maintenance, but I haven’t taken x-rays and I don’t want to know what might pop up in a few years. I’m careful about what conditions I ride him in and how I manage him.

[Samotis]

I was on the other side and sold my barely broke 4 year old to someone across the country who only saw a video. He got him and decided he didn’t like him. He wasn’t lame, just green and hadn’t settled in so was acting wild.
No I didn’t have to take the horse back, but I did. I raised the horse and know he is very talented, so I gave the money back minus a few expenses.

Now I know to never sell a horse to someone off a video!!!

Sorry this happened, especially with someone you knew. It sucks!

Hopefully you can make the horse comfortable enough to ride.

Ps. I have the horse now 6 and he is my show horse and I love him!!!

[Amoroso]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, 100% should have gotten a PPE, never doing that again. I had dealt with this person before, bought a horse from her before and she was my trainer while I was living in Alberta. Therefore, the level of trust was high.

The horse has moderate osteoarthritis which can not possibly be from the trailer. I have the vet report here and a very good vet in the lower mainland said the horse has had this condition for at least a year to show the joint changes he does.

To answer the question…this gelding hasn’t done a whole bunch of anything. He is bred HUS but never shown due to lack of time. He is a bit too forward for the pleasure thing, so I bought him as a fun horse to do lower level dressage and jumping with until my warmblood yearling is ready for me (I have a fabulous Freestyle x Junventus X Rubinstein that I’m just dying to have grow up faster…LOL).

The argument that the owner/trainer is making is that this is “normal”. So I don’t see the big deal, take the horse back. If she thinks its normal, great I’ve paid to diagnose it and she gets that for free. I’ve had the horse less than two weeks…

[Amoroso]

I do have in writing by the way regarding any injuries or ailments, but I don’t want to go the court route…not worth it. I have it on messenger via facebook when we made the deal for the horse. I’m better off to inject the horse, hope he is sound and deal with the fact that I got royally screwed.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

He could have mild changes but that isn’t why he was lame. Unless you blocked it etc. And even then, it could be that he got a bit sore and inflamed from the shipping and that it will not need a ton of maintenance.

Not agreeing with the seller at all…just pointing out that maybe since he is getting better so fast even though you haven’t injected him yet that it may not be all the bad. Hopefully it will work out for both of you.

[Helicon]

I would like to give another perspective.

The front foot lameness could be something minor like thrush, a sole bruise, or the horse may have a soft tissue injury from the shipping wraps or stepping on himself.

Are you saying the horse has some changes in his hocks that need injections? Lower hock arthritis is not that scary. Hocks are usually not that hard to manage. Be thankful it’s not arthritis in his fetlocks or stifles. Just inject him and get on with his career.

If the horse is only six and has moved halfway across the country, rearing and bucking may just be his way of saying he is scared. He may also be sore from bracing in the trailer. Spend some time with him and do some groundwork to give him confidence.

A prepurchase exam gives you a baseline so you know a horse’s weaknesses. No horse is 100%. I have had two vets tell me that the closest thing to perfection on an exam they have seen is when the horse only flexes a 1 on a hock. A prepurchase is not something you only do when you don’t trust the seller. its to try to get insight into the horse so you know what problems you might face now and in the future. Unless the seller is hiding problems and has a full set of radiographs too, they may be surprised by what vet finds too. The only thing you know for sure when you buy a horse is that you are buying a package deal that is going to include problems of some sort. Horse ownership is a journey in problem solving.

If seller was managing him by injecting his hocks she should have told you. If he was lame, she should have told you. But if she is your friend, I think its also possible she did not send you a lame crazy horse. Since you can’t send him back, put your energy into getting the horse comfortable and give the horse a chance.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Amoroso;7440409]
I do have in writing by the way regarding any injuries or ailments, but I don’t want to go the court route…not worth it. I have it on messenger via facebook when we made the deal for the horse. I’m better off to inject the horse, hope he is sound and deal with the fact that I got royally screwed.[/QUOTE]

Actually, when all is said and done, you’d probably save money in the long run to just pay a shipper to haul his butt right back to the Seller. Yes, you will be out your purchase price & shipping costs, but sounds like he has multiple training issues as well. I mean, plenty of horses have osteoarthritis (although not usually at age 5…that IS abnormal) and don’t buck & rear undersadde when asked to work. Plus you apparently have another issue with the LF?

So not only is he lame, but dangerous as well. Did the seller say bucking & rearing is also “normal?” Sorry, but she’s totally working you over.

Within 1 yr (easy) you will have spent more on this animal than what you will lose by shipping him back today. So do you want to keep this money pit for the rest of his life?

I would spend $150-200 for an hour of a lawyer’s time to draft a letter that basically tells seller you are sending the horse back and if she’s not there to accept it, you (or the lawyer) will open a serious case of whoop-ass on her…not to mention getting on every social media sight you know of and tell everyone how this trainer does business.

Odds are excellent she’ll back down. Personally I would never just tell my self “oh well, too bad/so sad” if someone screwed me over this badly.

This kind of slimy business is what give horse selling a bad name and it should have SEVERE consequences for the person who tries to get away with it.

This lesson will cost you, but it doesn’t have to break the bank.

[Spectrum]

I agree with Kyzteke. I would be seriously, seriously considering putting the horse on a trailer back to the seller and “figuring things out later.” Consider the fact that you have a 5 year old horse which sounds like it may never be sound to ride. You are actually more protected than the seller in this situation, because when you purchase a riding horse, unless the horse is sold with a written disclaimer you have a very arguable case of “implied warranty of fitness to a particular purpose.” Even without that, a 5 year old horse can easily live for another 15-20 years. Add up the cost of board for 15 years on a horse you can’t ride, add in a few thousand bucks for failed vet treatment or several thousand for SUCCESSFUL ongoing vet treatment and you need to decide if that is really what you want for the next 15 years of your life. You can buy a totally sound horse with a couple years’ worth of board payments saved up and then spend the remaining 13-18 years with a horse you can actually utilize for your riding goals. It’s a sucky choice to make, but this isn’t a short-term decision you are making!

[OverandOnward]

Your story is not very complete. You left out what the Seller said about the horse, if anything, before you purchased it. Since your story is not “Seller told me horse was hunky-dory but he’s not”, does that mean you did not ask about condition, and Seller did not volunteer that the horse was sound and had no issues or ailments?

“I knew the horse from when I lived out in Alberta.” How long ago was that? What does “knew” mean? Did you ride it? How much and how often? How much contact did you have with the horse just prior to offering to buy?

It comes across to me that perhaps you acted impulsively and are now having buyer’s remorse. It would certainly be nicer on the Seller’s part to accept a return, but I can understand why someone might not be willing to do that, and it does NOT put them in the wrong. The Seller may indeed think that these aches and pains are part of horse ownership, and may have thought you also thought so if you didn’t ask about the horse’s condition ahead of time.

IMO whether you have real grounds for complaining about the seller is less about the horse’s issues and more about the communication before the deal was finalized. You might need to be thinking about your part in it more than theirs - strictly imo, of course. However, if the Seller did misrepresent the horse, of course that’s another situation - but you haven’t stated that they did.

If someone calls me and says “Hey I saw your car and I’ll buy it for $x”, I agree and they buy with nothing else said, they are telling me they want it as-is. I’m not necessarily interested in why they want it. I’m also not interested if they call back saying “your car has a hole in the gas tank, I want to return it”. If that mattered, before offering to buy, or completing the purchase, they should have (a) asked about its condition and (b) inspected it. Not asking or inspecting means “as-is”. If they really want my car so much, they can fix or deal with anything about it they don’t like.

• Did you call and say you’d buy the horse, so please send it, without asking the Seller anything about the horse?

• If you asked the Seller about the horse’s current condition, what exactly did you ask? What exactly did the Seller say?

• Did you tell the Seller what you wanted to use the horse for, and did the Seller agree that this horse was suitable for the purpose?

Those answers would say more about whether the Seller was really in the wrong, IMO.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7443742]
If someone calls me and says “Hey I saw your car and I’ll buy it for $x”, I agree and they buy with nothing else said, they are telling me they want it as-is. I’m not necessarily interested in why they want it. I’m also not interested if they call back saying “your car has a hole in the gas tank, I want to return it”. If that mattered, before offering to buy, or completing the purchase, they should have (a) asked about its condition and (b) inspected it. Not asking or inspecting means “as-is”. If they really want my car so much, they can fix or deal with anything about it they don’t like.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. You would have to check the laws within your own State or Province. It is called disclosure. Amoroso said she purchased the horse to have fun on and do lower level dressage and jumping. We don’t know what was said between Buyer and Seller. If she told the Seller her intentions for the horse, and the Seller knew the horse had some lameness problems…Amoroso can sue her for not disclosuring the pre-existing condition. Doesn’t matter if she didn’t ask the right questions or not. That being said, it’s another thing to try and prove that there was a pre-existing condition and that the Seller knew about it before the sale.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Daventry;7443819]
Not necessarily. You would have to check the laws within your own State or Province. It is called disclosure. Amoroso said she purchased the horse to have fun on and do lower level dressage and jumping. We don’t know what was said between Buyer and Seller. If she told the Seller her intentions for the horse, and the Seller knew the horse had some lameness problems…Amoroso can sue her for not disclosuring the pre-existing condition. Doesn’t matter if she didn’t ask the right questions or not. That being said, it’s another thing to try and prove that there was a pre-existing condition and that the Seller knew about it before the sale. ;)[/QUOTE]

I think that is the point…we really don’t know what was said or asked. Disclosure laws wouldn’t require you to disclose the minor issues listed by the OP unless ASKED or unless the horses was presented for sale in certain manner. And honestly…if a horse was sore after a trailer trip…then sound within two weeks so it wasn’t noticable…hard to really know if there is something wrong. The horse could be bucking undersaddle for any number of reasons. (Change of turn out, feed, saddle, way of being ridden could be causing that as much as soundness issues).

Really…none of us has enough information for a judgement. All that is clear is that the OP isn’t happy with the horse and the situation. And that is unfortunate.

[Kyzteke]

It’s true we need more info and every story has 2 sides, the bottom line is that if the Buyer told the Seller, “Hey I’d like a nice little horse I can do some dressage & jumping on while I’m waiting for My Foal to grow up. How about Blaze? I remember him from back when I was in Alberta.”

That is really all she SHOULD have had to say. At that point Seller should be able to tell if the horse is sound and if he has any riding issues. Sadly, this is often not the case, but this is how it SHOULD work.

But again, the OP has learned a very expensive lesson here…and maybe this is one of those things COTH is good for…letting other know in advance that this stuff happens and how to avoid it.

[Blume_Farm]

It is true that we do not know enough about the story to make any real suggestions. However, it is possible that this horse was just sitting around at the Seller’s doing a lot of nothing so she may not be aware of any lameness issues. Also, because a pre-purchase exam was not done there is always going to be the question of could something of happened during transit.

A friend of mine is buying a horse I bred that she has been leasing and showing the last 4 years. They have a very long history TOGETHER, she has known him since he was 3 years old, has been his only rider/trainer/show rider his entire life, knows everything that has been done with him medically (floating, hocks injected, etc) and he is scheduled for his pre-purchase exam next Friday!

Most times the cheapest part of the horse is purchasing it! Even if only spending a couple thousand dollars on the horse ALWAYS at least get a base line exam, flexion tests, minimal x-rays. Otherwise it leads to he said, she said, bad blood and a lot more money and head aches!!!

[Amoroso]

Ok, to clarify because some questions have been asked.

Yes, I have in writing (thankfully) a conversation between us regarding the horse. I absolutely DID ask about the soundness of the horse, any injuries or issues. I was told the horse was sound, no issues and had one previous accident with a gate as a yearling and he sustained a bump on his left front and a dent in his neck. Nothing is currently wrong with either of those areas…it is his right hind with the issue.

I have in WRITING from the vet that this condition is at least one year old, to show the type of arthritic changes seen on the floriscope - this is best vet in our area as well, very well regarded. It was confirmed by the vet that this issue could not have been caused in transit.
I purchased insurance for the horse upon my purchase, BUT it does not cover arthritis - that is an exclusion on the policy. Thus, I’m completely SOL.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Amoroso;7447690]
Ok, to clarify because some questions have been asked.

Yes, I have in writing (thankfully) a conversation between us regarding the horse. I absolutely DID ask about the soundness of the horse, any injuries or issues. I was told the horse was sound, no issues and had one previous accident with a gate as a yearling and he sustained a bump on his left front and a dent in his neck. Nothing is currently wrong with either of those areas…it is his right hind with the issue.

I have in WRITING from the vet that this condition is at least one year old, to show the type of arthritic changes seen on the floriscope - this is best vet in our area as well, very well regarded. It was confirmed by the vet that this issue could not have been caused in transit.
I purchased insurance for the horse upon my purchase, BUT it does not cover arthritis - that is an exclusion on the policy. Thus, I’m completely SOL.[/QUOTE]

In that case I agree with you, the seller should absolutely take the horse back. I have no idea how you can make that happen …

Well, being you are in the situation you are in … what are the options for this horse? I am sorry you were stuck with this. I’m sorry for the horse, as it may be hard to find a home for him where he is wanted. Obviously he isn’t wanted where he came from, given the way they seem to have unloaded him.