Wwyd, horse sore near withers

[Lunabear1988]

I feel like I’m always posting here about horse care. I feel like I’m paranoid but also that my vets are very conservative. Sometimes it’s a combination that I’m thankful for and sometimes it’s frustrating. I’m not sure if I should have the local hospital take a look at him, my vet, a different vet altogether, or just stick with the work that we are doing under saddle and the body work.

To make a long story short my horse is going really well under saddle but looks like crap on the lunge and has areas of concern during bodywork. Not sure where I should proceed.

My horse has had soreness near his withers (that muscle right below, not the top of wither) on and off for some time. Nothing was noted at the PPE. Not at his first Chiropractor appointment. But a month later after his stifle injury (which I have other threads about) It was noted that he was a bit sore on the right side of his withers, SI area and of course his Stifle. The thing is he had not been ridden in about 3 months at that time when the soreness near his withers first showed up. So I’m not inclined to blame saddle fit. Plus I just had who is regarded as probably the best saddle fitter in the state out and bought a saddle through her.

He’s going really well under saddle. Never any sour attitude or naughty behavior. In fact everybody always comments how happy he looks understand all the time whether he’s doing dressage or cavaletti (his favorite.) And the video I’ve seen of me riding him/trainers riding, I think he looks good. He is stiffer going to the right although I wouldn’t say it’s extreme.

On the lunge line he looks awful. Part of that is I don’t think he had a proper education for the lunge But instead was taught in a round pen /natural horsemanship. He definitely wants to counterbend and just move so stiff in his body when you try to lunge him.

He gets a lot of body work and right now is probably had body work every single month the last few months. I’ve alternated from chiropractic to massage and PEMF. Next month we are adding some acupuncture.

Anytime he gets body work I’m told his back looks great except for sometimes the SI area. And then the wither area and sometimes lower neck. My vet hasn’t been thrilled with the farrier I’m using. I’ve only used them a few times though, but I’m thinking if she’s not happy after this last trim that I’m going to try somebody else. I just wonder if that’s contributing. Another thought is if this is coming from the stifle still… compensating maybe.

He has such a great attitude that I just want to make sure that he’s comfortable and not just being stoic. The soreness is not severe by any means but it is there and I would like it to not be consistently there…

[Heinz_57]

@Lunabear1988

My vet hasn’t been thrilled with the farrier I’m using. I’ve only used them a few times though, but I’m thinking if she’s not happy after this last trim that I’m going to try somebody else. I just wonder if that’s contributing. Another thought is if this is coming from the stifle still… compensating maybe.

My first thought while reading through was feet (after saddle fit, which you’ve taken care of). Feet out of whack can cause all kinds of soreness and crookedness, plus stifle issues.

If you’re feeling especially brave, you can post pics of his feet

[Lunabear1988]

That’s what I keep thinking…is this mostly feet? We have x-rays from March but he got really thin soles and sore over summer (was barefoot.) Then we did a leather pad and shoes for a few cycles. Then my vet came out and said he had WAY too much heel and probably 20 mm of sole (I could be messing up what she said.)

I sent her pictures after he was done the second time from this farrier and she was happier. But the chiropractor also commented on him having a lot of heel.

I will see if I can scrounge up some more recent photos.

[Heinz_57]

If you’re really curious about the trim situation, a set of follow up x-rays would probably go a long way. Even better if you could get vet and farrier to team up so everyone’s on the same page, but I know that’s not always possible.

[Pally]

You say paranoid, I say proactive. Some days it’s a fine line (that I like to leap wildly back and forth over on occasion myself, lol) but I think your horse is lucky to have you. It sounds like you are doing well with the riding and body work.

I agree with other posters that regular follow-up foot balance X-rays sound like a good idea for this guy in general, just because you’ve had some issues and lots of changes.

Also, I can’t remember where/what climate you are in, but footing outside can have a huge impact on the muscles, especially those in the shoulders and thoracic sling (basically the muscles around the fore-ribs and under the shoulder blades). I know it’s not always something we have control of (c’mon weather genie!) so the body work ends up sort of chasing that and making sure it doesn’t spiral too out of control.

It sounds like your guy moves pretty well when he’s under saddle and being directed as to how to move all his parts. Good work, keep up that dressage and cavaletti. But I would also look at adding some ground work that emphasises him more independently learning to move in good balance. This usually means some slower work (if they are running hyperspeed, they aren’t really thinking about how they are moving… it’s all autopilot then. Probably part of what you see on the lunge line now). Personally I like working with horses on a long lead and with a medium whip (buggy or dressage). I can step away like lunging so they aren’t reliant on me at the head, but I can also use the whip as an extension of my arm to cue different body parts.

Poles, obstacles, terrain, etc are great for this because it encourages them thinking about foot placement and using each limb independently. For more ideas and information on this type of work, I highly recommend the teachings of Linda Tellington-Jones.

This also sounds like a horse who might benefit from Sure Foot pads (or similar). One of your bodyworkers may even be a practitioner or have some to try.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

Before I even got the part of your post about the feet, that was my first thought. If those are off balance, it can cause so many compensatory aches and pains that take a long time and a lot of bodywork to resolve. Most notably, the majority of horse shoulder area pain is usually related to the feet, so I would keep barking up that tree for sure.

I would give the feet priority and get those squared away, and also perhaps give horsey a 2 week work vacation and judiciously use some anti-inflammatories and/or muscle relaxants and/or a BOT blanket and keep up with the body work and see how things go.

[Xanthoria]

@Lunabear1988

The thing is he had not been ridden in about 3 months at that time when the soreness near his withers first showed up. So I’m not inclined to blame saddle fit.

You might have started blanketing him a few months back though, and blankets can make a horse sore.

[punchy]

It would help if you could pinpoint what muscle. Are you talking about the trapezius or the longissimus dorsi? If the latter, it could very well be left over from from his SI injury. Especially if you say he is not just sore in the wither area but SI and stifle too. The LD runs all the way down the back.

[Lunabear1988]

It was June actually. But maybe left over from May… although his blanket seems to fit well. It’s one of those high neck ones.

[Lunabear1988]

I believe it is the longissimus dorsi that’s been sore.

[Lunabear1988]

And only on one side.

We are scheduling a vet appointment for him with a different vet for next week. (I’ve used them before but not for this horse.)

My vet is a little defensive since she did the PPE. But I truly feel this is something that showed up later…just something to address. Not catastrophic.

[Lunabear1988]

Such a good post! We have basically been doing a little bit of everything mentioned. I have stepped back on the lunging. He is is more lazy than anything on the lunge, but also disengaged. I’m not sure if this is just a mental or a physical thing. Regardless I think as expecting maybe too much too soon. So stepping back and working on different steps of the ground work first.

I’m very interested in the sure foot pads. His massage therapist has them, I hope we can try those next time.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes I definitely am wondering about the feet being a factor. The weather is pretty crappy so he actually has had the most of two and a half weeks off. Now he did just get chiropractic, But I was happy to see when I gave him a little massage yesterday that he didn’t feel sore in his wither/shoulder area to me.

[punchy]

Well, the LD runs from the wither to to pelvis. An SI injury can cause soreness in that muscle all along it and at the wither. What do the body workers say? It seems he’s getting a lot is bodywork for a young horse in light work. Any body worker worth their salt should be able to explain their findings to you. Are you present for the visits? Ask questions—they are in the best position to answer.

[Lunabear1988]

I think both bodyworkers are both careful not to “diagnosis.” But everyone agrees that with the feet and stifle/SI injury that he definitely can be sore from that. And yes I’m always present.

He’s getting a lot of bodywork because I wanted to support/keep a close eye on him while he returned to work through this injury.

[Red_Barn]

I think Pally makes very good points.

It sounds like your horse responds well to good riding, but hasn’t developed the muscling, or perhaps the internalized habit, of moving in a healthier way without the rider’s guidance.

How does he look when moving at liberty? If he looks reasonably good, then it may just be a longing issue.

Do you use side reins, long lines or other training gear, for example? Does the size of the circle matter? The location? The handler? There’s definitely lots to look at here!

(And no - I don’t think you’re being paranoid either. I think your concerns make good sense.)

[Lunabear1988]

I hope so! I definitely don’t think anything is horribly wrong but I still feel like something needs a little change? Like the feet. His feet aren’t horrible by any means but I feel like they have been through a lot of changes this year. Some, outside of our control.

I free lunged him the other night and he mostly stayed in a twenty meter circle ha ha. But I thought he looked okay. He was playing and hoping around though.

I just use a basic lunge line and just started using a lunge Cavesson too. No side reins or anything yet. I kind of I’m not sure if he’s ready for those. Although on one hand I almost wonder if having an outside rein would help … Not so much about longitudinal function keeping him kind of guided around the circle. I’ve talked to my trainer about it and she says we can try. But I wanted to do a little more work with him before going to that. Long lines might be really good too.

[Red_Barn]

If you’re a good long-liner, I’d probably go with that, just because it’s so much more nuanced than side reins.

You never said exactly what’s “awful” about your horse’s way of going, but when I see the words “natural horsemanship” and “round pen,” I immediately think of a hollow horse with zero bend. (Am I way off point here?)

If that’s the case, and you want to stick with a plain ol’ longe line for now, you could always try simple exercises like Spiral in/Spiral out, or - my all-time favorite - Cherrie Hill’s “Wagon Wheels” exercise. (This has you longeing on a large circle, walking along beside the horse, and adding a 10 - 15m volte at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00. Works an absolute treat.)

101 Ground Training Exercises for Every Horse & Handler (Read & Ride)

You might also want to change up the longeing routine to make it as UNlike an NH round pen experience as possible. You could, for example, follow Pally’s advice and walk ground poles as a warm-up, or combine longeing with closer in-hand exercises - turn on the forehand, shoulder in - so that your horse isn’t reminded of the bad old NH routine you want to train out.

Does that make sense? You just want to avoid cuing unwanted habitual behavior so that you can start over on a healthier foot.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes hollow and counter bent. Which of course looks like crap and isn’t good for his body. I do remember when I went to buy him that the trainer took the split rings and tie them to the saddle kind of like side reins. Only problem was she did tie him much shorter to the inside to get him really bending. Not how I would do it!!

I just can’t tell if it’s gotten worse since I first got him or not. Obviously I’m a little more hyper aware since his injury though. But the vet comes on Thursday. Never hurts to have a check-up.

I will look into some different exercises to do. We’ve been doing some more in hand stuff.

[J-Lu]

To me, it does s

Text

ound like feet might be a factor.

Thin soles are something your farrier should be able to address. Your horse may need to be in shoes always. Heels can’t be changed overnight because of strain on the DDFT.

Horses can be sore because of the way that THEY move naturally. Correct riding (at least in dressage) can influence that. For example, my current horse naturally moves with a high neck and it’s gotten better with training. I free longe him since he knows the deal and voice commands. This is a great way to see how HE is wanting to move independent from a halter or a longe line. Horses in a typical round pen are working on a 20m circle and should be able to forward without tack. They tend to counterbend when their focus is not on you but on their surroundings. Quality Natural Horsemanship training should be able to teach you/your horse how to keep the focus on you and not the surroundings. Focus on the surroundings is a “default”. You have to override that “default” and say “Ummm, I think you have to pay attention to my aids”. That means putting in the work.

Soooo happy to discuss this via PM if you want!