Yearling (ish) filly blow ups

[cedarlake]

My personal thought is while there is a lack of boundaries, there is also a threshold of confidence being exceeded in these 4ish circumstances.

Young horses will push boundaries, that is a known fact. Rather it is with the dam, friends, or human, young horses are going to test the waters as they start coming into themselves. I’ve worked with hundreds of foals (thank you TB breeding farms ) and I usually see a lot of sass begin at 2 months, reappear around 6 months, and really start solidifying by 12 months. Early correction and detection is essential, and if caught early, usually as a yearling they have been sorted out. This could mean 1 of 2 things. Either her antics were found funny when she was younger but has now reared its ugly head (no pun intended) to an extent that is no longer funny, or something medically has occured that may cause random symptoms (i.e. ovarian related).

My thought leans to the idea that this was not corrected directly, and then leads into her confidence level not being as high as another horse’s would be. They are all different after all. My suggestion is to start introducing more mental stimulation that requires that threshold to be met, and safely manageable if it gets unruly. We never know where our horses lines are drawn until we start hunting for them. For example, my horse is quiet and calm on trails. You can pack him, lead him, have a string, whatever you want, but you bring out a flag…all bets are off. He loses his mind. So I say, “ok, there’s that line, now let’s see what I can do to maximize the threshold.” Suddenly, his confidence increases and I have less blow ups in general. I will correct dangerous behavior but I will never correct spooky behavior. I learned that if I allow the horse to be a horse, which is spooking, then they find out that I don’t care that you’re worried, I just care if you try to kill me in the process. So now I’m seeing a horse with a little thought behind the eyes versus full blown panic.

This is simply what as worked for me and is by no means backed by science or top trainers. But I like the conversations with my horse that I have now. He now turns to me when he’s concerned and then thinks on things, rather than flee the scene. I also put myself in a round pen and my horse naturally does NOT want to drag you down the road. So I have 2 things that work in my favor to help create a horse that is more willing to work rather than peace all the way out.

[beau159]

@pluvinel

I would rephrase and say horses learn by making choices. Decisions have consequences.

I disagree with this statement. This is anthropomorphising. Horses don’t think of “mistakes.” That is a human construct. Horses make choices: (a) I can be with this human or (b) I can leave. It is up to the human to let the horse know that one decision has unpleasant consequences.

You are getting WAY too technical and completely taking things out of context

If you want to rephrase it to “choice”, sure, go ahead. We’re saying the same thing.

@pluvinel

No one said to “ wrap a tight chain around her nose ”…If that is how you interpreted my post, then I wasn’t clear.

I was not referring to you whatsoever in my post. Just making a random example.

@pluvinel

Of course you are!!! Spooking occurs because something out there in the horse eating wilderness is more important than the human attached to the horse. Horse needs to know that human is more important than any horse eating acorn out there.

I disagree with this.

I am not going to discipline the spook.
I am going to discipline that they have deviated from their job I have assigned.
There is a difference. If I have told them to trot on a straight line, then they should continue to hold pace and trot on that straight line until I have told them otherwise. If they spook at something in the process, I don’t care that they spooked, but I do care that they didn’t stay trotting in a straight line, so I just put them back on that trot and ask for the straight line again.

If you make a big deal of that spook, then it’s going to be a big deal to the horse.

[pluvinel]

@beau159

I am not going to discipline the spook.
I am going to discipline that they have deviated from their job I have assigned.
There is a difference. If I have told them to trot on a straight line, then they should continue to hold pace and trot on that straight line until I have told them otherwise. If they spook at something in the process, I don’t care that they spooked, but I do care that they didn’t stay trotting in a straight line, so I just put them back on that trot and ask for the straight line again.

If you make a big deal of that spook, then it’s going to be a big deal to the horse.

We agree. Again, semantics. It came across as if you said to “ignore” the spook. The way I interpret this explanation is that the horse is expected to continue on the "assignment’ he was given.

[RedHorses]

My first priority was stopping the bolt and bringing him back to me. Then going back and walking the same path we were walking when the bolt happened, being hyper alert so a repeat could be stopped before he got past me, and then he could be backed up. But all slower than with an adult horse who knows better, or needs to be taught better. Stop, set up, back up using only as much energy as required.

If I could identify a cause (noise, scary object, etc) I would take him to it and show him, let him investigate, touch, and then do some little moving forward, back, hind or forehand sideways, near the thing to teach response to me in the face of a distraction. It’s correction, not discipline, because he didn’t know what to do yet.

I’m not excusing misbehaviour by any means. I expect my baby horses to behave the same as I expect my adult horses to behave. But for shorter periods of time. The expectation of that behaviour allows me to see when they’re doing something undesirable and correct with “do this” instead of just stopping them. I have to train the behaviour I want before I can discipline for misbehaviour in that situation.

Anything that was a hard no like kicking, rearing, bumping me merited a strong correction, the specifics depending on the situation.

That said, it’s not the end of the world if you fail to discipline one human endangering incident. The then two year old I had last year did one of those jump into canter and playfully kick out sideways at his playmate moves when I was trotting him in hand, and he slammed me pretty hard. I was not able to discipline him due to the pain, though I did hang onto him and stop him immediately. I was very careful about trotting him in hand after that, and corrected the smallest step out of line, and he’s never tried anything like it again. So, no immediate correction (beyond halt, which was really just not letting him escape), followed by focused training around the situation that led to the incident so it wouldn’t happen again.

Do your best in the moment, then think about it afterwards. What happened, what caused it, what you did, how she responded to what you did, and then what will you do next time - could you have handled it better? By planning what you will do in a similar situation you will be better prepared to act. It’s almost always better to correct with “do this thing” than “stop that! Bad horse!” actions. The obvious exception being things that are directly dangerous to the human.

It’s also worth thinking about whether you can break up the incident into smaller pieces to train separately. Like the two year old that kicked me - his jump into canter was forward and sideways away before he kicked out. Trotting in hand was done beside a wall or fence so I could focus on the forward energy control without having to deal with the sideways.

[RedHorses]

@pluvinel

We agree. Again, semantics. It came across as if you said to “ignore” the spook. The way I interpret this explanation is that the horse is expected to continue on the "assignment’ he was given.

I agree as well, but it’s only semantics because we have experienced this training with baby horses. It’s not semantics for the person new to it. How they read the advice given isn’t going to be the same as someone experienced.

Discipline the spook isn’t necessarily going to mean correcting the deviation from the assignment. How can it when experienced people aren’t reading it the same way?

[OverandOnward]

@RedHorses

It’s also worth thinking about whether you can break up the incident into smaller pieces to train separately.

I think this is a very good consideration. With any animal, but especially with an animal as large as horses.

Animals often have a hard time comprehending a larger set of issues that made up one incident – that’s the way humans think of it, not animals, IMO. IMO the animal tends to experience it as a whole bunch of little things that happened all at once. Horses especially don’t always see the connection between them, as we do. The horse brain is programmed to “just go!”

Humans have a narrative of ‘what happened’. The location, the situation, the players, the sequence of events. We have a story to tell that includes several factors.

I don’t think horses think in narratives. Rather, they react. And react, and react. They can produce an entire series of reactions in the blink of an eye. A 2 yo bolting, bucking and kicking all in a second, may be responding to three different things, in the instinctive brain firing of a 2 yo horse. ‘Something’s behind me - bolt! I have to get this thing off me - buck! Something’s about to eat me - kick!’ Bucking to get something off of, and/or away from them, might even have been a reaction to the halter and lead in a moment of panic. Also, what looks like ‘play’ to us, might not have felt like that to the horse.

I don’t think horses always know exactly ‘what happened’, as a human would tell it. They just know that something upsetting caused their brain to fire off a lot of reactions. With horses in particular, they are so busy instinctively reacting to it that they don’t always see what happened. Their instinct is usually to “keep going!” instead of wheeling around to look, as do cats and dogs.

I agree that if we can work with an incident as multiple little things, separately, that is easier for us, and I think it’s also easier for the horse to comprehend. They may never fully clue in to more complex training, imo.

[pony_grandma]

I haven’t read all the posts yet but my 1st thought was Has she learned to stand tied?

That’s where some colt starter people begin. Within the horse - it sets them up for what follows.

I used to begin when they stand tied in the stall to be fed, grain, hay in a net. For a very short period of time with someone with them. And of course always with quick releases.

I’ve seen trainers stand them tied near an arena so they can pass the time watching any other action and get used to that also.

Ditto on a nose chain. Thinking about it I haven’t used a chain until they were 4. The kite flying yrs.

[findeight]

Just be sure the horse, of any age, really knows what you want it to do and exactly how to behave before correcting “misbehavior”. Focus on teaching what to do instead of correction, youngsters have no idea what you want, that is where you start. Small and simple steps with lots of patience.

[paintedpennypony]

Yes. I tie her every day. I think we’re up to 45min of her standing tied and being very relaxed while I do chores. Always with her in sight and my other mare next to her. She’s a good girl

[paintedpennypony]

Thank you for all the responses. This thread has certainly provided clarity and given me some things to think about. I appreciate all of the advice and very insightful suggestions.

[paintedpennypony]

I don’t have anything to add to this other than I always find your perspective to be very unique and intriguing!

[Arzny]

Golly. I would never use a chain on a weanling. Mine (also TBs) are similar to LaurieB’s babies. They aren’t really truly leading via rope yet. They definitely are not being tied yet. There’s too much potential for serious, life altering injuries at this age.

I’d back off the blanketing and walks to new places, and instead focus on politely walking from its stall to its paddock and back. Grooming and farrier work etc can be done in the stall.

[paintedpennypony]

Really? Man I have gotten conflicting advice. I was told IRL it’s a good thing to teach her to tie at this age and that tying fell under basic handling expectations. Hmm. Thank you for your perspective.

[OverandOnward]

I’ll say thanks!

A long time ago, I was listening to a long narrative being told by a horse owner about a single scary moment that had happened with her and her horse. She was explaining why she was reluctant to ask him to canter, with this elaborate, multi-faceted, heavily-backgrounded, story of what happened in that moment.

And when did this instant in time occur? It was so impactful on the owner, she was so not over it, that I was thinking maybe a few days to a couple of weeks ago.

It had been five years. Five years of her telling this story, to instructors, to barn pals, to people in her personal life, to explain how and why a single instant of horse behavior had affected her whole perspective of her relationship with her horse, from that moment on.

It occurred to me how many narrative stories like this one that I had heard over the years. And probably told some myself. A long explanation of an instant’s horse behavior.

Of course her horse has not spent the last five years noodling his own narrative about this instant – although she seemed to think that he probably has been. There hadn’t been any subsequent incidents with the trainer who was also riding the horse (and cantering, a lot).

Horses don’t dwell on narratives of incidents. This is us humans being human. Just my opinion. IMO life with horses becomes much easier if I just look for what would have triggered an instinctive reaction, and go from there.

[findeight]

@paintedpennypony

Really? Man I have gotten conflicting advice. I was told IRL it’s a good thing to teach her to tie at this age and that tying fell under basic handling expectations. Hmm. Thank you for your perspective

You will be told many things, most based on that individuals long time experience with similar situations. The art is in sifting through all this and picking out what is right for you and your young colt in your environment and circumstances. Most of it is not black or white, not etched in stone and buried in “ it depends”. Of course some if it is also BS. Buyer beware of free advice.

Theres a grey area between exposing a weanling to things he needs to learn to handle and getting him scared and in a situation he has no idea how to handle and/or not enough training to handle it. Last thing you want is a bad memory etched in his brain…and bad memories last a very long time in horses.

One thing about today is we are learning so much more about neck and back injuries creating lifelong issues, including injuries from very young horses sitting back when tied. I would err on the conservative side with a 9 month old and not ask for too much too soon. Some posters on here have decades working with multiple weanlings every year I would weight their advice heavily.

[paintedpennypony]

Absolutely, the collective wisdom on this forum is always so helpful and that’s why I posted — all of these comments have been really valuable. I’m really reevaluating both what I have been told IRL and how I’ve been doing things myself. I backed my older mare with the help of a trainer and a reoccurring theme then was adjusting my expectations relative to her age and training level. With the help of this thread, I’m realizing I have been doing a similar thing with my filly. I have been conservative with her and what I’ve asked of her but I think I should scale back just a bit more for the next few months and focus on daily handling and getting to know her better, but also be prepared to correct as necessary when she behaves similarly in the future. I really do want the best for her and she has already taught me a lot. I expect this will be one of many, many lessons I will learn over the next few years. Thank you all again, sincerely!

[findeight]

You are very welcome….and you know we need updates. And pictures. They do not have to be good, just candids are fine. We like to follow projects and love a good glow up in spring when the fuzzies fall out.

[4horses]

Oh. The joys of a young horse. My youngster accidentally ran me over once. It was dark and I was carrying hay. Some deer ran by the fence in the background and he spooked into me. Sent my glasses flying right off my face… other then some bruises I was fine.

He also ran by and kicked out and caught someone in the ankle. Ouch. The only time he has ever kicked and I suspect he just ran by and bucked and she was standing in the wrong spot. He has never ever offered any aggression.

I had him leap in the air one day when I went to put his halter on. He was grazing and the next thing I knew he was leaping in the air and zooming off.

He hated the clippers and refused to let me clip his legs. He also decided he was not going to let me put the bridle on (last year at some point). No way. He tried every evasion in the book to avoid taking the bit. I just ignored these behaviors, decided to work on this at another time… came back to it this year and he immediate took the bridle and was fine about having his leg clipped when he came in with a kick mark the other day.

Don’t make a big deal out of things unless they are unsafe behaviors. Time is your friend here. As your horse grows up this stupid baby stuff should diminish. It doesn’t mean don’t handle them, but know when this is an issue I need to correct today vs. this is something we can work on when they are older.

[quietann]

On tying: what do people think about tying a young or inexperienced horse with a Blocker tie ring with the least restrictive method (loop through the tongue, leave both ends hanging straight behind the loop)? Of course with such a horse you’d want to be sure that the end of the tie rope would just pull through in an emergency.

My bias: I love the Blocker ring. A horse with a minimal understanding of pressure and release will learn it better. But the tie rope used matters a lot!

[Montanas_Girl]

@quietann

On tying: what do people think about tying a young or inexperienced horse with a Blocker tie ring with the least restrictive method (loop through the tongue, leave both ends hanging straight behind the loop)?

I do not like the Blocker and other similar devices for horses who haven’t yet learned to give to pressure (I think they are great for broke horses as an “in case of emergency” fuse for places like the trailer, though). My experience with many, many horses who have been “trained” (but not really) to tie with those things is that what they’ve actually been trained to do is pull until the rope gives. Exactly the opposite of what I want a horse learning.

With my babies, I prefer to loop the rope around a post or through a regular tie ring and hold the free end in my hand while I’m grooming/whatever. That way, I can control the amount of give or pressure at any moment in time. If you read horses well, you can see when one (that hasn’t been taught the sitting back habit yet) is building up to a problem. I will pull the rope loose and ask the horse to do something - walk a few steps, move sideways, etc. - to “change the subject” and diffuse the problem before it is actually a problem.

I don’t actually tie a horse until I’m sure it’s going to stay put and give to pressure rather than pulling back.