Yellow Hannoveraner bloodlines

[Willesdon]

The problem with any colour is how to describe it. Genetic typing is a very recent thing so pedigrees back into the 1980s are unlikely to be helpful.

A friend has just purchased a topnotch show cob that is a silver grey with pretty dapples on his bottom. All his vet and show records describe him as “grey” but his passport ID is “black”. Changing his colour in his official ID documents is sufficiently complicated that the registry recommended we didn’t even try.

In Britain we have, for centuries, selected for “hard” colours without too much “chrome” because popular lore says they are hardier, more robust, better suited to their environment and work requirements etc - and only common-as-muck gypsy horses are broken colours. Even in gypsy cobs the majority are “tobiano” and any other coat patterns are extremely rare. They just don’t have “pinto” or “paint” colours and patterns. The advert selling a “tri-coloured tobiano” is really just selling a plain old “bay skewbald” and I really doubt anyone has tested any genetics to prove it otherwise. It is notable that horses running at the top levels of sport are still bay, chestnut, grey or black.

Over time fashion comes into play. In the 19th century greying out of a coat colour was deemed to be caused by early aging. Grey TBs almost vanished in Britain until grey French race horses started to win in the the UK. Even today some TBs make less money at auction because of an odd coat colour. Then, of course, certain coat colours are not recognised by the TB General Stud Book. Palomino only became recognised in 2007 in the UK. So look through records and you will only find “chestnut”. Anything people aren’t too certain about, based on the phenotype of the parents, when registering a foal within a few days of birth, becomes a “roan” in the TB world.

Then along come the European warmbloods and suddenly they all have long white socks because they look so snappy in dressage. When did that happen?

Meanwhile, in the States, there are so many horses with Iberian and Barb roots, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors, that have different genetics from those horses of Northern Europe imported into the East Coast. These genes produce all those many, many colours and coat patterns covered by Spanish terminology that can not be easily transferred onto other breeds. These genotypes will probably not be present in modern European warmbloods except way back in their past when the Iberian horse was considered the very best warhorse and every king and general wanted one to ride so they were traded across Europe.

[Scribbler]

I also read that the baroque fancy colored horses were more in fashion in the early years of the Conquistadors so more were available for export. Meanwhile in Spain the Lusitanos were bred for grey in the 19th and 20tj century.

A lot of the land races or breeds developed in the Americas have ties to Spanish Mustang populations at some point. When I look at photos of Mustangs and even my own chestnut Overo mare in hog fuel paddock with melting snow (she can be momentarily invisible) I figure that broken colors and dilutes confer a camouflage advantage to feral horses. Especially in the desert, the palominos duns and buckskins fade into the yellow grass and rocks. And splashy pintos have a kind of dazzle camouflage since your scanning eye sees random white spots before it sees the horse outline. Appaloosas too.

It’s not for nothing that the buckskin/dun color of prezwolskis horse, that blends right into the steppes, is considered the “primitive” original horse color.

It’s also true that some (but not all) pintos sunburn on their white patches. My 90% white with big blaze wildie mare never sunburned or got rain rot, but my 75% chestnut Paint mare always burns her one white & pink nostril when she’s on a field in summer. It might be a combination of white plus more “blood” she’s supposed to have an Appendix dam?

The high whites on dressage horses might also come from carriage horse ancestry. Both the Hackney and the Clydesdale have splash white pinto lines, can be tall socks, big blazes, belly spots. Modern Dutch Harness Horses have these patterns too

[phantomhorse]

@Willesdon

Even in gypsy cobs the majority are “tobiano” and any other coat patterns are extremely rare. They just don’t have “pinto” or “paint” colours and patterns. The advert selling a “tri-coloured tobiano” is really just selling a plain old “bay skewbald” and I really doubt anyone has tested any genetics to prove it otherwise.

Tobiano is a pinto pattern.

While a tri-colored tobiano can also be called bay skewbald, a bay skewbald may not necessarily be tobiano at all. There are many different genes that can produce a not-black horse with white patches, so the terms are not interchangeable (though someone serious about genetics would not use either term to describe a horse).

I think this is a great example of why trying to use the most current terms is helpful, as perhaps people looking back at pedigrees 50 years from now will be less confused than we are looking back at pedigrees from the 80s. Your friend’s show cob would be much more accurately described as “grey (born black).”

[Scribbler]

@phantomhorse

@Willesdon

Even in gypsy cobs the majority are “tobiano” and any other coat patterns are extremely rare. They just don’t have “pinto” or “paint” colours and patterns. The advert selling a “tri-coloured tobiano” is really just selling a plain old “bay skewbald” and I really doubt anyone has tested any genetics to prove it otherwise.

Tobiano is a pinto pattern.

While a tri-colored tobiano can also be called bay skewbald, a bay skewbald may not necessarily be tobiano at all. There are many different genes that can produce a not-black horse with white patches, so the terms are not interchangeable (though someone serious about genetics would not use either term to describe a horse).

I think this is a great example of why trying to use the most current terms is helpful, as perhaps people looking back at pedigrees 50 years from now will be less confused than we are looking back at pedigrees from the 80s. Your friend’s show cob would be much more accurately described as “grey (born black).”

It is true that the vast majority of piebald and skewbald horses in England are what the American Paint society calls Tobiano.

My understanding is that the Frame Overo pattern mutated in North America in horses of Spanish descent and wasn’t present historically in Britain.

The Splash White pinto pattern seen in Clydesdales and Hackneys was I believe historically called “Blagdon” in Britain (read that here on COTH!).

The main pinto patterns that produce clear patches of white and color are Tobiano, Frame Overo and Splash. The other pinto patterns like the various Overos tend to be more speckly.

So the piebald and skewbald were inevitably Tobiano.

I had a Tobiano as a kid and a Frame Overo now, and have followed the new genetic color information with interest.

[Willesdon]

@phantomhorse

@Willesdon

Even in gypsy cobs the majority are “tobiano” and any other coat patterns are extremely rare. They just don’t have “pinto” or “paint” colours and patterns. The advert selling a “tri-coloured tobiano” is really just selling a plain old “bay skewbald” and I really doubt anyone has tested any genetics to prove it otherwise.

Tobiano is a pinto pattern.

While a tri-colored tobiano can also be called bay skewbald, a bay skewbald may not necessarily be tobiano at all. There are many different genes that can produce a not-black horse with white patches, so the terms are not interchangeable (though someone serious about genetics would not use either term to describe a horse).

I think this is a great example of why trying to use the most current terms is helpful, as perhaps people looking back at pedigrees 50 years from now will be less confused than we are looking back at pedigrees from the 80s. Your friend’s show cob would be much more accurately described as “grey (born black).”

The problem is that UK people are applying American terminology with little to no understanding of American Paint and Pinto colours. A question at a Horsey Quiz Night about what to name a patchy brown and white horse with black mane and tail almost caused a riot as the “tobiano” block argued with the “skewbald” block. It was actually very funny and the Quiz Master withdrew the question before blood was drawn. As you pointed out, tobiano is a precise coat pattern not a colour description.

There is currently a horse competing locally at low level eventing that has American Paint or Pinto blood (I asked). It’s coat pattern is unique amongst all the other piebalds and skewbald running at the same Events.

Very few people in the UK bother to test for genetic colours. There is still a preference for hard colours though duns do tend to have a colour premium on their price. The generic “dun” now tends to be called “buckskin” in the Olympic disciplines - which is likely more accurate as most have added blood to improve performance. We do also have native breeds that have several dun colourations, complete with the associated stripes. Native x TB = good Eventer.

The show cob in my story was originally purchased at the biggest Horse Fair in Ireland. Breeding, on both sides, is registered as “unknown”. In the absence of any other information, such as the colour of the parents, black was a reasonable guess. Black is a common colour in gypsy cobs as it does exist in several native breeds.

Yes, genetic testing does make breeding records and pedigrees more accurate.

[endlessclimb]

The word “yellow” to describe this/these color/s is making me twitch.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

The word “yellow” to describe this/these color/s is making me twitch.

Having owned a yellow horse (who people jokingly called a cheese log) for a very long time, I totally knew what they meant and it made me smile.

[endlessclimb]

I never said I didn’t know what they meant. I’m glad it made you smile?

Same with the use of hannoveraner. Outside of Germany, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it said that way. Even the German judge at the inspection my mare attended changed to Hanoverian while speaking English.

Just bizarre.

[phantomhorse]

@Willesdon

The problem is that UK people are applying American terminology with little to no understanding

Oh it’s not just those across the pond from the US who apply color terminology with little to no understanding.

Your near-riot at the horse quiz night gave me a chuckle as I was once at a similar activity and the debate between chestnut and sorrel also seemed destined for bloodshed. And I have learned not to ever get into a discussion with someone using the term “chocolate” unless dessert is the topic…

[skydy]

@phantomhorse

Your near-riot at the horse quiz night gave me a chuckle as I was once at a similar activity and the debate between chestnut and sorrel also seemed destined for bloodshed.

That one has long been an article of contention. I’ve only seen the TB “chestnut” people vehemently dismissing the QH “sorrel” people as incorrect.

I don’t know if that argument exists in other breeds.

[Willesdon]

Ah well, horses… So the original English spelling was “chesnut” (which is how it sounds) minus the ‘T’. An acquaintance spent some time convincing The Oxford English Dictionary to include both spellings. Thus early TBs were called chesnut though now modernized to chestnut in their pedigrees, history books etc. However, the Suffolk breed of heavy horses all have coats in various shades of red and these are all “chesnut” in their studbook. It was ever thus and it isn’t going to change for some new-fangled modern word. Then, I grew up in the English Midlands and “sorrel” was used to describe a particular dark, rusty-red chestnut, like the colour of the Sorrel plant. It has vanished from standardized modern British horsemanship but it might still be used in local dialect. I only saw “sorrel” again when I became interested in QHs in the late 1990s. From this side of the Atlantic it appeared to be breed specific.

[JB]

Things do get weird and interesting when breed organizations use different terms to describe different shades of 1 color (chestnut vs sorrel). And with the pretty new info we have now about color genetics, including silver and dun, as well as knowledge of things like sooty that can’t be tested but can definitely be seen, it gets worse.

Silver grulla is used to describe the lightest shade of grulla, no Silver (Z) gene involved

The Fjord breed uses things like Gray, and White, and Brown, to describe varying phenotypes of dun, without gray, or pink skin, or brown genetics in the picture.

“Chocolate” will bring out gnashing of teeth of the color purists LOL

[Scribbler]

I think we should be able to mentally process the newest data about color genetics, while also enjoying the linguistic and cultural history that brings us different words in different parts of the world

Interestingly I understand that sorrel in the South West USA is often considered a lighter chestnut with a flaxen mane. And honestly until now I assumed it was a Spanish inflected word like Pinto and Overo and Hackamore etc. But I Googled and is not!

My chestnut Overo likes to eat red sorrel but I never made the linguistic connection.

[DMK]

@JB

The Fjord breed uses things like Gray, and White, and Brown, to describe varying phenotypes of dun, without gray, or pink skin, or brown genetics in the picture.

Don’t forget yellow and red!

(And kvit, but like Bruno, we don’t talk about kvit)

The colors terms are more of a direct translation from Norwegian (brunsblakk, ulsblakk, rødblakk, gulblakk and grä) rather than anything adopted from this side of the pond. And given the age of the breed it might be that all the American terms are very late to the party. If the Vikings stayed over here we would all be saying brunblakk instead of dun.