Yellow Hannoveraner bloodlines

[eventingmania]

Yellow horses have not always been accepted in the German studbooks, but still there are horses carrying the DNA to produce yellow horses.

But does anybody here know which Hannoveraner, Westfalen and Oldenburg bloodlines of today that carries creme?

Like any known stallion leading back to the 80s that for sure come with creme even though not obvious in regards to colour?

I have a lady descending from the bloodlines of Herenhausen, and she comes with a questionable colour (which we will check with DNA) and digging into this made me really interested in knowing more about this.

So if anybody is sitting on good intel on this topic I am all ears

[weixiao]

Cream doesn’t hide. A horse with one copy of cream will always express cream (palomino, buckskin, etc.), a horse with two copies will always be cremello, perlino, or smokey cream. Grey or another modifier could “hide” it eventually, I suppose, but you’d still have the cream visibly expressed somewhere at some stage.

I don’t know about the other German stud books but this is the first year that the Hannoveraner breeding program allows “colored” horses to be registered, so you won’t find any dilute registered Hanoverians going back to the 80s. Of course there are dilutes with Hanoverian lines that would be registered with other stud books but if I understand the question correctly you are looking for a horse that was registered Hanoverian and secretly carries cream?

[eventingmania]

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough

I am looking for horses that evidently have been labeled something else than their actual colours.

History have proved many times that a horse has been carrying cream even though listed as a normal bay, chestnut or black in the books, but then out of the blue something obvious yellow have popped out.

I.E. the Swedish warmblood stallion Pompe was one of those who I believe was originally listed bay, but later turned out to be a buckskin. His father was a grey so probably it was hidden there.

In all I am looking for horses of German blood, from the 80s and forward where this could have been an issue I am sure someone out there must know something about more modern horses.

Like the TB RFF The Alchemist. His maternal grand father Glitter Please XX, was a Palomino by a chestnut stallion, and out of a bay mother.

Later his mother has been revised into the buckskin she evidently was.

The blood lines behind her are very common in sport horse breeding. So if nothing dodgy was going on producing a TB buckskin like her, for sure there are more I find it very interesting so hopefully someone knows something

[JB]

@weixiao

Cream doesn’t hide.

Cream doesn’t dilute black, so cream does hide in smoky blacks

@weixiao

Grey or another modifier could “hide” it eventually, I suppose, but you’d still have the cream visibly expressed somewhere at some stage.

Gray does hide cream really well unfortunately. Usually the only time you can tell both are there is the foal to yearling, when they’re an over-saturated palomino or buckskin

@eventingmania

But does anybody here know which Hannoveraner, Westfalen and Oldenburg bloodlines of today that carries creme?

There are quite a lot these days. I don’t know all of them, but some are Legrande, Good As Gold, Qaside MD, Corteo, Bernstein, Zafferano, Creme de la Creme, Mitril, Sagar, and so many more. I don’t pretend to know where all of them are approved/licensed, but there really are a lot out there today.

[JB]

@eventingmania

I am looking for horses that evidently have been labeled something else than their actual colours.

As far as I know, buckskin and palomino just weren’t accepted colors in certain WB registries, and in these “breeds”, there really aren’t very many shades that don’t look like their dilute color (unlike Morgans). Smoky black does hide cream, so those could hide, but if coming from 2 parents approved with a registry that doesn’t allow dilutes, the odds of one existing and just called black, are pretty darn slim

The JC on the other hand has historically called palis “chestnut”, and bucksins "bay’, so lots of them hiding back there. That’s changed fairly recently.

@eventingmania

the Swedish warmblood stallion Pompe was one of those who I believe was originally listed bay, but later turned out to be a buckskin.

Yes, he’s like Yaeger, a very dark buckskin, easily seen as just bay because of how dark they are.

[eventingmania]

Us suspecting one of my horses is a Smoky Black is what sparked this interest are any of the ones you mentioned horses that "changed colour’ in the registries

[weixiao]

@JB

Smoky black does hide cream, so those could hide, but if coming from 2 parents approved with a registry that doesn’t allow dilutes, the odds of one existing and just called black, are pretty darn slim

This is what I was trying to say, but better stated and much clearer, thank you.

@eventingmania what color are your mare’s parents? Is there any sign that one of them is smokey black or very dark buckskin? What about their parents? Do they have other foals and do any of them show any signs of cream? The chances of finding cream hiding in Hanoverian lines going back to the 80s I think is very, very slim but I believe the other two you mention have allowed color for longer so maybe there is a better chance in those but I’d start with your mare’s immediate family for evidence first, if you haven’t already. I’d be curious to know which bloodlines you’re looking at.

[JB]

@eventingmania

Us suspecting one of my horses is a Smoky Black is what sparked this interest

lol, fun! Do you know his pedigree?

@eventingmania

are any of the ones you mentioned horses that "changed colour’ in the registries

I don’t know honestly.

@weixiao

Is there any sign that one of them is smokey black

there is no sign There’s a range of shades of black, and creme doesn’t dilute black (which is why points on buckskins are still black), and a range of genetic (and dietary) fading

Agree with you on your thoughts on the chances

[weixiao]

Sorry, I’m not doing a good job making myself clear here - but to try again: by “signs” I don’t just mean the horse’s color visually but the color of its parents and its other foals. If it looks black and it suddenly has a palomino foal pop up and the other clearly parent clearly doesn’t carry cream, then that would be a “sign.” Or if one of the suspected carrier’s parents looked suspiciously buckskin, not bay, or was black but had a clearly dilute foal or family member themselves, then that is a sign.

[Scribbler]

If you are curious about a specific horse, you can run a DNA test for color at UC Davis and have the question answered definitively.

[JB]

@weixiao

by “signs” I don’t just mean the horse’s color visually but the color of its parents and its other foals.

oh gotcha, sorry!

[eventingmania]

Those are the horses I am interested in, the “bays” and the “blacks” who suddenly fathered, or mothered an offspring who came out creme, making it obvious these parents also were somekind of creme

[eventingmania]

She is up for DNA on colour. We suspect she may be smoky black

[eventingmania]

I am like 80% sure I have heard her grand father sired yellow horses. But that was soo long ago we had that discussion, so it could have been another stallion with the same name. The mother line descend from Herrenhausen where they did breed yellow horses back in the days, so who knows. So far I met no one, who saw this horse IRL, who is confident enough to name and give her an official colour

[Willesdon]

Just a historical note. The Hanoverian kings of Great Britain brought with them a special strain of “Royal Creams”, carriage horses that were bred and used exclusively by the royal family for state occasions up until the early 20th century. They were replaced by the Windsor Greys. The creams were described by Lady Apsley (in 1948) as “… an interesting survival of the past - slow, ponderous, strong; the stallions used to draw the State Coach had uncertain tempers and were a very expensive establishment to maintain”. I was told they had become so inbred their fertility was affected. I once met a man who was assiduously searching all the State Harness in the Royal Mews for at least one hair to test the DNA of these cream horses from Hanover.

[eventingmania]

Those were horses descending from the stud of Herrenhausen

[Willesdon]

@eventingmania I don’t know which stud they came from. King George II of Great Britain and Elector of Hanover, founded the State Stud at Celle in 1735. Ironically, GB only got a National Stud in 1915.

[JB]

@eventingmania

So far I met no one, who saw this horse IRL, who is confident enough to name and give her an official colour

Do you have a picture? What about her makes everyone so unconfident in color?

[Marla_100]

If you search online there’s some info to confirm what Willesdon
stated.
One article says the H. Creams
descinded from German horses
who were actually from
Spanish Andulusians.
There’s pictures also.

[eventingmania]

I know about the yellow horses of Herrenhausen, and how some of them ended up in the UK. The question I want answers too, is about finding colour discrepancies in modern hores.