You can't afford a horse if you can't afford a vet....what exactly do we mean...and how about hamsters?

[x-halt-salute]

@McGurk, can’t quote you at the moment, but yikes! I guess this board wouldn’t be a representative equestrian community if there weren’t a couple of people around with unrealistic ideas, zero self-awareness, and a certain “generosity” when it comes to advice-giving. I agree that that’s preposterous and I hope it was a minority opinion in your thread.

If there were no humane middle ground between euthanasia and throwing all the diagnostics/treatment options at any given problem, my health insurer would surely have had me PTS a long time ago! Thank heavens for activity modification, I guess, and being allowed to live a somewhat comfortable, if solidly and constantly NQR, life.

I’m about to be in the same boat w.r.t. deciding how much treatment to pursue for subtle performance-limiting issues in a not-young horse vs. retirement, or at least stepping back workload. If the dang creature hadn’t blown the whole vet fund (and then some) on a few emergency trips to the local vet hospital and extended stays in the colic ward over the last couple years I’d be in a better position to go all in on soundness for performance. But I think most people here are sympathetic to the fact that a horse’s happiness involves a balance between workload and soundness, and recognize that how far you get with the whole “affording the vet” thing depends not just on your finances, but also other circumstances including luck. And to that point, my little mare should thank her lucky stars she’s an only child – if there were other equines in the picture (as in your case), she might not have the luxury of demonstrating the miracles of veterinary science at the local vet school often enough to become a bit of a local celebrity.

[McGurk]

To continue the conversation: we own two dogs who are like our children. We refer to them as the eldest child and the youngest child; the human child is the middle child.

We spent close to $1000.00 5 years ago having the eldest child tested and treated for what turned out to be tick borne disease, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. Now that he is 13, very old for an 80# dog, I would probably just stick to palliative care.

The youngest child is 8 months old. With a long life ahead of her, I’d probably be willing to spend well north of that $1000 if result was we got to enjoy her longer or she had a better, more comfortable life.

I spent $1000.00 at the emergency vet on a previous dog after she was hit by a car; she survived and lived a good life for many more years, I don’t regret that money.

Here’s where the rubber hits the road for me; though, of course, your mileage may vary:

I won’t pay for chemotherapy for a companion animal. I wouldn’t subject them to multiple surgeries. And I wouldn’t inject them on a regular basis (A family member kept a beloved cat in renal failure alive this way for a long time; I respect their choice, but I wouldn’t do it for a pet of mine.) And my resources aren’t limitless, at some point I would have to say “I can’t spend any more money.” And I try, more or less successfully, to make end of life decisions that are about their needs, not mine.

I don’t think any of that makes me a bad caretaker. I think it means I’m pragmatic and realistic.

On a tangent: I am currently furious at a couple of young people in my life because they adopted animals for which they simply CAN’T afford basic care. In one case, a dog got parvo because the idiot owner adopted a second dog when she couldn’t afford the first and didn’t have it vaccinated because she couldn’t afford it. I view that as animal cruelty. The other situation involves young adults with minimum wage jobs who didn’t understand a large breed dog is expensive, and that you can’t delay preventive care until it’s convenient for you.

[TMares]

It’s super basic for me- if

annual shots and a coggins
routine hoof care every 6-8 weeks
good hay and quality feed
money for emergency visits for wounds, lameness, etc

is too much- then you can’t afford horses.

If you can’t afford to get the hock x-rayed to even KNOW what’s what, you can’t afford horses.
If you can’t afford maintenance meds that don’t cost more than say $2/day- you can’t afford horses. Personally, I get it if a horse needs $10/day forever, that’s $1000+ per year, year after year- so a 10 yo that lives to 20 is now $10K in drugs- I GET IT.

so everyone has their own numbers. I would never put a horse through colic surgery- that’s me. That’s not money talking- that is my own ‘too risky’ pool.

[oldernewbie]

@Rackonteur it won’t let me quote your post. ???

Anyhow, thank you for the kind words!

[MsM]

To me, affording vet care means at least routine preventive care plus the ability to pay for at least the smaller emergencies (stitches, tubing for colic, etc). How far you wish to go beyond that is a function of your economic situation, other dependents, prognosis, other debts, and risk.

With my old horse, I eventually gave up on the expensive diagnostics and treatments that never worked for long. I was able to retire him and keep him comfortable for several years. If I couldn’t do that, euthanasia was a possibility.

One of my dogs is an adventure in veterinary medicine! :no: She has had two back surgeries and a foreign body ingested surgery. She has an auto-immune disease requiring medication and is currently battling recurrent diarrhea. I try not to add up the costs!!! But she is a happy little dog and most of the time you would not know there were any issues. So we continue on. I just roll my eyes when she is greeted at her doggie neurologist like Norm at the Cheers bar! :winkgrin:

Current horse had an MRI to diagnose his issue. :sigh: We are now at the stage of rehab where I am debating whether to do another MRI to assess his healing (Because of course he has an injury not accessible any other way)

In my situation, I am single, no kids. By continuing to drive my old car and not doing any vacations, etc, I can afford the treatments without hurting anyone else. Having human dependents to consider would have made things way more complicated.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

Not that long ago I spent several hundred dollars trying to clear up a bacterial infection my axolotls picked up from a take back… That is what I get for doing the responsible thing! I never thought I would spend that kind of money on vet care for amphibians! I was lucky that the vet worked with me by only needing to examine one and get the weight on the 19 others… Otherwise I would not have been able to get treatment if having to pay for individual exams on 20! All pulled through although it was an adventure in treatment (I had to give an antibiotic injection in a little slimy leg of each one 13x!). This is probably where I realized how crazy I am… I would do it again in a heart beat.

Our little dog was hit by a car last year, and that is the most I have ever spent. She had to have a plate put in her pelvis to put it back together… She was so small and had such a good prognosis we went for it although if we could not have afforded it would have put her down. I realized that I would not have done that for our other dogs… One is too big and the other too old to have handled the surgery.

Our big dog has had two surgeries, but both had a good prognosis. He is still with us several years later so would do it again. What lead up to the first surgery was an episode of bloat that was partially rectified by shoving him in the car to go to the emergency vet. That emergency vet clinic cost more than the actual surgery that happened at my normal vet clinic, and they were completely incompetent. I am still pretty pissed about it many years later. At the last surgery, the vet told us he experienced some irregular heartbeats while under so I think he has had his last surgery (afraid he would not survive another).

My horse has had her share of things over the years! She has no idea how lucky she is to have me.

@McGurk, nicely put! I am on the same page as you as far as the extent of veterinary care.

[fledermaus]

Well, tomorrow I am picking up my pony after a three week stay at a university hospital. She fell and dislocated her hock, which required a five hour surgery and a plate inserted, a cast for two weeks, etc. If I am conscientious with my rehab program she has a good chance of coming completely sound. This pony was a giveaway my trainer found for me to be a pasture companion for my horse. Her resale value isn’t much more than that, but I had the discretionary funds (yes, a number of projects are getting moved to ‘maybe next year’, including a new truck), but I had the chance to save her life, the surgeons were hopeful after looking at the x rays, and I went for it. No regrets.

My point is, I did happen to have the money (we just sold our house in a far more expensive market than the one we moved to). I do not have any fault to find in anyone who would would have chosen differently.

A lot of these choices are very hard to make. Of course it is appalling when a wealthy person chooses to put down a horse they just didn’t want to spend any money on, but let’s face it, most of us are not in that position.

[NoSuchPerson]

The quote feature isn’t working.

Fledermaus said

Of course it is appalling when a wealthy person chooses to put down a horse they just didn’t want to spend any money on
.

That’s a pretty offensive statement.

I don’t qualify as wealthy, but I could certainly afford to pay for colic surgery or vet hospital treatment and rehab for a serious injury. But I won’t. It’s not the money, it’s the cost in pain and suffering. I’ve seen horses who had colic surgery who were never right again. I’ve seen horses suffer through surgeries and long unpleasant rehabs who were never again serviceably sound. I have myself spent a couple of months administering unpleasant treatments to a horse that in the end had to be euthanized anyway. I won’t ever do it again.

So, yeah, I will choose to put a horse down in some situations even if I could afford to pursue additional treatments. And in your situation, yeah, I would have had that pony euthanized.

That you chose differently is fine. We all have different beliefs and we all do what we think is best. What isn’t fine is for you to judge people who may not make the same choices just because “they can afford it.”

[fledermaus]

You got offended because you misinterpreted my post. I think the operative word you may have missed was JUST. Some people who wouldn’t even miss the money forego a treatment which would be straightforward and return a horse to useful pain-free health, because they simply don’t care enough. That’s completely different than what you are talking about. There is always a cost vs benefit analysis that has to be purely about the horse’s current and future suffering and long-term prognosis.

As it happens, my pony, most surprisingly, appears to be really enjoying her stay in the hospital, where she is doted upon, groomed, and cookied by vet students, lives in a heated, beautifully lit, immaculate, vast stall built to accommodate a draft horse, and has a constant parade of horses and people going by to entertain her. She has gone from being a timid, worried little horse to a relaxed, confident, indeed rather spoiled little horse in a very short time.

[To_the_MAX]

Several years ago I spent upwards of $15,000 on treating cancer in my Great Dane. Vets convinced me radiation therapy “wasn’t as hard on dogs as it was on humans” and it was the worst mistake I’ve ever made in my life. Not because of how much it cost, but because my dog was miserable and we ended up having to put her down anyway after making her life a living hell for months.

Looking back, I feel wholeheartedly that I failed her, even though my decision was coming from a good place. My SO and I live a comfortable life, and we have money saved for emergencies, but now what I tell myself is that I won’t pay for anything that will prolong my animal’s pain or discomfort.

If a horse or dog would have a lengthy, difficult, painful healing/recovery process, I feel it’s kinder to just let them go. I cringe when I see those “inspirational” videos of animals with prosthetics thinking about how long they’ve been uncomfortable or in pain throughout the process - it’s not like they understand what a prosthetic is or why they should endure so much for it.

So to echo another poster - just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD.

[McGurk]

@To the MAX. really sorry the quote and like features aren’t working, because I LOVE your post and couldn’t agree more. I am very sorry about your sweet Great Dane and am sorry both of you went through that.

I am also repulsed by the prosthetic videos. Some decisions are based on an individual risk/benefit analysis, some are just wrong.

The wonderful vet who treated the eldest child had me hold him during xray, ultrasound, passing an endoscope and a bunch of other unpleasant stuff for which the dog was perfect; I apologized to him the entire time. I couldn’t stand that we were making him MORE miserable trying to figure out what was wrong and I knew he didn’t understand; but because he trusted his people he held still for all of it.

[RMJacobs]

I would never consider a prosthetic for one of my animals. It strikes me as cruel. But I do wonder if any of the development work on them have benefits for human prosthetics, or if the knowledge transfer goes the other direction (in other words, do developments in animal prosthetics benefit people, or do developments in human prosthetics benefit animals?).

Every time I see the references to hamsters in this thread, I remember talking my dog’s vet into euthanizing a hamster. The office staff was very resistant and told me to just break his neck, but I couldn’t do it. I finally talked them into it, and wouldn’t you know it, when I went to get the hamster to take him to the vet, he had already died. Poor guy was ancient by then, and had been doing OK until a day or two before when he suddenly was in terrible shape and clearly in pain.

Rebecca

[NoSuchPerson]

Still no quoting or liking in this thread. Frustrating.

fledermaus, I think you and I are just going to keep talking past each other on this topic. We’re not seeing things the same way at all.

I still think your statement was offensive. To me it feels unfairly judgmental. People get to decide how much money they’re willing to spend on keeping a horse alive. And how much money they have is irrelevant. Wealthy people have the same right to decide that they aren’t going to spend more than $X as those of more modest means and choosing not to spend doesn’t make them “appaling.”

[Angela_Freda]

In a way I think it’s incredibly selfish to have an animal that you are unable/unwilling to at least offer the basics which to me are;
proper feed, and supplements
regular trims, shoeing
annual/routine vet care including dentals, and urgent care
euthanasia when financial limits are exceeded by medical need
(off the top of my head)

[trubandloki]

@RMJacobs

Every time I see the references to hamsters in this thread, I remember talking my dog’s vet into euthanizing a hamster. The office staff was very resistant and told me to just break his neck, but I couldn’t do it.

I find it strange that the vets office had to be talked into euthanizing something and was suggesting an owner break its neck.
It is fine that they give the advice that breaking its neck is humane, to an owner who does not want to have it euthanized, but an owner that wants to have their pet euthanized at the vet should not have to talk the vet into it (in the described situation). When it was time for my pet rats my vet euthanized them with out question.

[Angela_Freda]

@trubandloki suddenly, again, I can’t quote… COTH heal thyself!!!

Anyway, after being in the feline diabetes group that is national and international, the vast differences between vet practices and the variety in knowledge base, and proactive treatments and care no longer shocks me.
Saddens me, yes. Shocks? Nope

[trubandloki]

@Angela Freda The issues seem to be only this thread now so it is not likely anymore repairs will be made.

[McGurk]

There is a famous story in my family about my mom, a tough old farm woman, taking my pet field mouse to the vet to be euthed when the tumor it had on his back was so big it interfered with his balance.

She couldn’t bear to just kill it, and everyone in the family was fond of it.

The vet agreed and took the cage into a back room and did the deed. We never asked what method was used and I don’t want to know.

To a poster above, if your horse presents with an obvious injury and lameness, yes, of course you should have it xrayed. That is the responsible thing to do. You can’t treat it properly if you don’t know if there’s an underlying fracture.

That’s different than suggesting the standard for responsible ownership is radiographs and nerve blocking all around to pinpoint a subtle lameness in a 20 year pasture sound animal who can be comfortably retire.

Somewhere in my education I learned the term “nominal fallacy”; meaning that putting a name to something/getting a diagnosis is synonymous with cure. A diagnosis for something that can’t be treated or that the owner can’t afford to treat is of limited usefulness.

[Silver_Silence]

@evilc123 last call I had for euthanization was $242.95 (CDN) I’m in Southern Ontario. Deadstock is around $200 for where we are.

[RMJacobs]

trubandloki said:

I find it strange that the vets office had to be talked into euthanizing something and was suggesting an owner break its neck.
It is fine that they give the advice that breaking its neck is humane, to an owner who does not want to have it euthanized, but an owner that wants to have their pet euthanized at the vet should not have to talk the vet into it (in the described situation). When it was time for my pet rats my vet euthanized them with out question.

Understand that this was not a vet that treated any rodents at that time. They did dogs, cats, horses and cattle. There wasn’t a very small mammal vet anywhere around that I could find (this was before the Internet was much of a thing). Many years later, they did start treating rabbits, as my daughter took her rabbit to them for vaccinations and checkups. But after my favorite vet retired from there, their quality went way downhill and we stopped using them for anything.

Rebecca