You know the horse market is crazy when

[AltersAreUs]

@mvp

That horse doesn’t want to spook at a garden hose, either. What it wants/needs is a handler or rider who can give it enough confidence to not think that every slidey thing is a serpent and every hunchy thing (like a log) is a crouching predator. And/or it needs more turnout time, etc.

Ooh, yes, the idea that every spooky horse just needs a better rider & management to get over it … I’m beginning to think you’re a lot less experienced with a variety of horses than you want us strangers on the internet to believe.

I personally know three top trainers in my area that no longer take on the squirrely ones. These were the guys & gals at the recognized shows 15 years ago getting that massively reactive 4 year old around the ring cleanly despite having cleared the warmup ring due to the horse’s shenanigans. They had and HAVE the skill (and track record to prove it) to turn youngsters into solid citizens who went on to both professional & ammie riders.

And now these folk are over 40 (one of them WELL over 40) and have enough business coming in that they can afford not to do it anymore. Wanting safe as the default setting in a horse is not showing a lack of riding ability - it’s mostly showing a maturity of the brain. Once you learn you ARE mortal, well, then the risk/benefit function really changes for most of us.

[AmmyHunter]

@mvp

So aren’t we both talking about the same subset of buyers?

I only mention this because of the English world’s convention (among some, not all) people of “sending a horse to a cowboy” if he’s doing stuff wrong that’s beyond the rider’s threshold. No shame in that, but the idea that the rider can merely send the horse out for correction and not go along to learn from the cowboy what he’s doing and how he knows what the horse needs is a significant problem. I don’t hear that part of “sending a horse to a cowboy” being discussed.

You seem to have a very specific idea of what happens, that just doesn’t line up with what I see in the H/J world. “Sending a horse to a cowboy” is not something I view (or see happening) as a regular occurrence, or the default if a horse is being naughty. So I don’t think that’s a guaranteed outcome of the unrealistic buyer. If a horse turns out to be less compliant than expected, extra training rides from the trainer are the likely result, and the risk is a loss of the rider’s confidence (and in more extreme cases, risk of injury), and you may or may not be able to be restore the rider’s confidence in that horse. I think the post from @dags sums it up well. It is reasonable to seek safe & saintly, but trainers need to be realistic that no horse is 100% foot perfect all the time, and the closer you get to that the more expensive it becomes.

[AmmyHunter]

@dags

I don’t begrudge anyone looking for safe & saintly, but that’s different from the desire for a horse that never ever ever puts a foot wrong, which is pretty pervasive in FB posts. That’s an unrealistic expectation that sets the horse up for failure & the purchaser (or their parents) for disappointment.

Well said.

[Horselove5]

@mvp

• It’s not the horse’s job to take care of your feelings.
• It’s not the horse’s responsibility to make our sport (and his needs) fun or inexpensive.

Thank you!
The amount of ads I see containing the world “saintly” is alarming - it’s an animal, a living thing & not a machine and it can absolutely react to environmental stimuli. Idk also how sellers advertise with such wording (could be liable in some states). I’ve seen many examples of such “saintly” schoolmasters misbehaving out of nothing. Where do you guys find these saints?

[AmmyHunter]

@Horselove5

The amount of ads I see containing the world “saintly” is alarming - it’s an animal, a living thing & not a machine and it can absolutely react to environmental stimuli. Idk also how sellers advertise with such wording (could be liable in some states). I’ve seen many examples of such “saintly” schoolmasters misbehaving out of nothing. Where do you guys find these saints?

Some people’s definition of saintly takes that into account. Saintly doesn’t have to mean 100% foot-perfect robot, never shakes its head or reacts to anything. There is a horse at my barn that is the saintliest of saints, under anyone’s definition, and he’s still going to fuss a little from time to time if his owner hits him in the mouth badly while learning to jump. IMO the saintly ones are just going to tolerate a lot more than the average horse might.

[Paint_Party]

@dags

Safe & saintly are reasonable & attainable qualities. 100% foot-perfect is a rarity that will cost considerably more money. Trainers need to be making this abundantly clear to their shopping clients.

Absolutely agree.

But hasn’t this been known for, like, decades? Haven’t we all known since we were kids that anyone on any kind of a budget has to compromise somewhere? Why are there so many ISO ads looking for “a unicorn” that checks every item on a wish list… for an unreasonably low price? How/when did this trend get started? Is it because now, with facebook, Unicorn Seekers on a Budget figure, “What the heck, why not cast my majickal thinking out there on the Internet and see what happens?”

[dags]

@Horselove5

The amount of ads I see containing the world “saintly” is alarming - it’s an animal, a living thing & not a machine and it can absolutely react to environmental stimuli. Idk also how sellers advertise with such wording (could be liable in some states). I’ve seen many examples of such “saintly” schoolmasters misbehaving out of nothing. Where do you guys find these saints?

I have had the pleasure of knowing & meeting tons of “saints”. Plenty of them have had (rideable) spooks and what not, but damn if they don’t keep on trucking when they have every right to yeet their rider. So in that sense, not a robot at all. Just blessed with an incredible sense of humor.

[dags]

@Paint_Party

But hasn’t this been known for, like, decades? Haven’t we all known since we were kids that anyone on any kind of a budget has to compromise somewhere? Why are there so many ISO ads looking for “a unicorn” that checks every item on a wish list… for an unreasonably low price? How/when did this trend get started? Is it because now, with facebook, Unicorn Seekers on a Budget figure, “What the heck, why not cast my majickal thinking out there on the Internet and see what happens?”

I’d guess it’s the absolutely ridiculous cost of even an entry-level show horse these days.

[phosics]

Omg, Unicorn Seekers on a Budget. It amazes me what some people put in an ISO ad. I mean, I guess shoot for the moon and even if you miss you’ll land amongst the stars…but still I see things like “must be 16.2+, grey, scope to do the 3’+, 7-12 years old, started OF, no injuries or maintenance, no mares….budget mid fours.” I’m sure it’s not impossible but I see a many a MUST HAVES checklists asking for a whole lot of bang for their buck.

[beowulf]

I don’t know what circle that other poster is in, but I run into a lot of “NO TBs” peripherally, as someone who is constantly private messaged by local trainers asking if I have any connections or know of any ‘hidden gems’ through WOM or the PC network. The requirements are always the same - must take a joke, must be point and shoot, must be safe… and… NO TB. Which is a shame because I got three TBs like that in my front yard.

Buyers still don’t really want TBs, but the current market has priced them out of everything else. As a seller, people are still preferring WBs even if that WB moves like a 5 and the TB moves like an 8. Even if that TB has a spotless show record and the WB has been carefully managed.

And trainers are still going for the WB because at the end of the day they make more money if the horse is a slow learner. You only gotta teach a TB something once.

[trubandloki]

I am always amused at what threads turn into a thread bashing anyone who admits they are a less than wonderful rider with limits in what they can do.

Though I require a certain level of unicorn (hate that term) to ride, I do find some of the ads for them amusing. I think for some it is because they have no clue how not likely their request is. Others I think they are just tossing out all of their wishes knowing that if they list 10 things they will have to settle for five things and we all know that the people who respond will respond if they only meet five things.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@dags

Just a guess, but given the absolutely banana-pants state of the market the past few years, I’d wager that peeps are starting to realize that they have to at least consider TBs that “fit the bill”.

I think that certainly plays a role. But I also think the creation of the RRP and TIP programs and the resultant cottage industry of restarting thoroughbreds is increasing the development and visibility of TBs that can meet the needs of a wider pool of buyers.

[Horselove5]

@dags

Plenty of them have had (rideable) spooks and what not, but damn if they don’t keep on trucking when they have every right to yeet their rider. So in that sense, not a robot at all.

Fair enough, I get it but in line with the topic of discussion - many of these “saint” ISOs contain also the requirements for absolute “no spook/buck/rear” and must be child/grandma/husband safe…it’s like they’re expecting a robot or I’m really seeing a misrepresentation of these horses around here…cuz they’re rare, priceless diamonds, that require lots of cash to part with, if ever.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@beowulf

I don’t know what circle that other poster is in,

If you’re talking about me, I inhabit the circle of people who go to local, unrated shows. The people who have never been able to afford a warmblood, even back before the current market sent prices sky high. The people who just want something safe that their kid can learn on and don’t care what breed it is - or even if it’s a registered anything - as long as it is suitable for their kid. Or their mother. Or their little old lady self.

You know, the people that are the foundation of the horse industry and vastly outnumber the folks who live in the upper circles.

[endlessclimb]

It’s not just that they’re wanting the horse with no spook/kick ride - they want it to also be a 1.35m horse.

It’s not enough to be a plodder. It’s got to be an athlete plodder.

[AltersAreUs]

@Horselove5

the requirements for absolute “no spook/buck/rear” and must be child/grandma/husband safe

See, I always assumed this meant “horse is as safe as any horse can be”, not “horse will never, ever, ever spook/buck/rear if given enough provocation”. I read “no spook” as “not reactive or a habitual spooker”.

I assume (yes, I know what that makes me) that MOST people going so far as to put together a horsie wish list know that any animal can act like an animal but maybe I’m just being naïve. I mean, how often we hear about folks buying what they thought was a decently safe horse only to find out it was known as Broncing Billy at it’s last barn? Or the supposedly childsafe horse that put a kid on the ground at least once a month? I feel buyers are often exaggerating their wish lists to try to counteract sellers exaggerating their horse’s training & rideability.

[ThreeWishes]

Agreed. All horses even the saintly school masters are capable under the right circumstances to spook or act up. I think the ask is just ….is this a confirmed habit or is this a pretty steady horse who you as a rider should always realize is a flight animal. It’s like the feeling I get when someone asks if my really good dog bites. Well. He has teeth. He’s never done that but I guess if you poked him in the eye or pulled his tail there’s always the possibility……

[Renn_aissance]

@Horselove5

the requirements for absolute “no spook/buck/rear” and must be child/grandma/husband safe

Here’s the thing- if you are looking for a Short Stirrup pony, I do not think this is an unreasonable requirement. Children need to learn to keep one leg on either side of the animal while it is behaving itself before they graduate to animals that are more likely to misbehave.

If you are looking for a trail horse for Grandma, unless Grandma is Betty Oare, I do not think this is an unreasonable requirement.

I think the average trainer understands that such animals come with a price tag, or with major trade-offs (like: one of the best “unicorn” Short Stirrup ponies I know has advanced Cushings and only has one eyeball, so she has some handling requirements to make her environment safe for her to navigate.) The average parent googling for Little Sally’s pony does not understand that ponies are hellions, does not understand what she is asking for, and does not understand why her requirements require an expensive history of training and preparation. It’s not a seller’s job to educate the parent- hopefully the parent is looking with the help of a professional or an experienced friend- but sometimes you watch that education happening in real time. So: how much of what this thread is complaining about is coming from professionals (or educated amateurs or juniors) versus Little Sally’s Mom looking, or Teenage Sally looking?

I have seen quite a few “ISO unicorn” posts from trainers- but every single trainer is defining what
unicorn means in context and talks about what they’re willing to look at in exchange for the must have unicorn traits. This includes, yes, it must be priced like it’s 2015 and can’t spook, buck, or rear. But it can be an off-size, it can rack instead of trot, it can require difficult maintenance and management requirements, it can be 23 years old and the prospective buyer will provide vet references and describe its retirement plan in detail upon demand, and it will have regular rides with a pro or a good junior to ensure its horn stays on. I believe they are successfully finding their unicorns.

By the way, I own a “unicorn” and I was Teenage Sally looking on DreamHorse, so I think I did a pretty good job there. He was a needle in a haystack 15 years ago when we bought him and his combination of common sense, sense of humor, training, and athleticism would make him a unicorn in this market, too. I got him by knowing the holes I could live with (his were his height, step, way of going, experience in my discipline) in order to get my non-negotiables (good brain, competition experience in an adjacent discipline, could teach me to his level.) And you can’t have him. On the way to get him, I tried one who was simply the ugliest horse I’ve ever seen in my life but also malicious on the ground and failed the vet in ways my vet didn’t think that we could maintain effectively (but he was beautifully schooled, because you have to be when you have a head like that;) one that reared with intent; and one with a nasty bolting problem of the type where his brain shut off and he had no self-preservation. The second two were being advertised as children’s horses. So I also think @AltersAreUs is making a fair point about why “horse dealing” has always had connotations.

[Peggy]

And be able to take a rider from 2’ stirrup divisions to that 1.35 m.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Not to sound silly, but I think many of us are referencing FB ads, which may contribute to the “no spook/buck/rear” defensiveness in some ISO ads. The buyers are often looking on their own, interacting with sellers they don’t know well, and, at least in my local group, it’s usually for cheaper, lower-level horses (versus Big Eq or Plaid Horse classifieds).

So the underlying subtext I get is often not “I need a horse who is a machine” but “don’t ask me to try a horse that’s going to buck me off and scrape me off on a fence.” I also must admit I sometimes see local FB ads for horses advertised as beginner horses that I know…and aren’t beginner horses IMHO…but are now getting too old/can’t jump and are advertised “for a dressage home only” or “great for trails” which is really not true of a quirky, sour, older horse that’s still got quite a few bucks and spooks in him. Just because a horse can only do beginner level things does not make him a beginner level horse. But on FB, you really never know.

I agree that it would be silly and heartless to get angry at an occasional spook. But while all horses spook, I think we all know there’s a difference between Mr. Steady Eddie and Ms. There’s a Patch of Sunlight And I Will Not Get Over Myself. And a little exuberance versus a horse that’s an explosive bucker. And I dunno, I guess I’m a wimp, but “no rearing” seems like a reasonable expectation for a pleasure horse.

The best horse and teacher I ever had really only had one or two hard spooks when I rode him for years. He could be very stubborn and difficult and didn’t suffer fools gladly (and I was often foolish), but he wasn’t a fearful or fretful horse, just opinionated. I know some people prefer the opposite–some horses are very sensitive and willing but anxious and need constant reassurance from a confident rider to move forward. It’s all about knowing yourself as a rider, but unfortunately ads can only communicate so much.