Yeah, I am truly amazed at the ISO ads where someone is looking for a care lease on a horse to use in their lesson program. As I used to tell my kids when they made some outrageous request, “I can’t believe you even asked that.” 
6 Likes
The “saintly unicorn” horse ads always make me a little nervous for the horses. What if Dobbin is saintly and perfect in his old home, but he has too little turnout and too much grain in his new home? What if the change in his diet creates ulcers? What if he had training rides before, but he doesn’t anymore? What if he’s used to being ridden 5-6 times a week, but was sold as “saintly,” so the new owner lets him sit for a week and then jumps on?
I’m probably overthinking this, but I sure have seen some people online saying they were scammed by the seller into believing a horse was kid safe or beginner safe. Sure, there are scammy sellers everywhere, but also, management plays a key role in how “saintly” a horse acts. So, if I were a seller, I’d be wary of describing a horse that way!
12 Likes
And you find the Irish sport horses are less spooky and more forgiving than their WB counterparts?
I’ll try not to castigate a whole breed (or really, registry) with the same broad brush but I don’t equate the Irish horses with amateur friendly. Even the ISHs, which are now mostly WBxs these days.
Even some of the RIDx’s I’ve ridden have had pretty dirty spooks. I’ve gotten to ride many because they end up being too much for their amateur owners and the trainers that sourced them.
5 Likes
I’m not exposed to nearly as many horses as you are… but I have to agree with you WRT WBs. In various barns, only a few have been any good outside the arena – and those were experienced eventers and one or two field hunters. Some of it may be lack of opportunity to get out of the arena, but every barn I have boarded at has trails access. I also have seen a lot of younger WBs with soft tissue injuries etc. They are probably not going to make it to the heights of the sport horse world, or even the mid-levels. So what do their owners do with them, when they can’t do what they were bred to do, and have problems being ridden outside an arena?
Full disclosure: my Morgan was pretty reactive when I first got her, and she still has a streak of that at 23. I did find her scary to ride at times, but put her – and me – in full training for a year, which helped enormously. She was barn-bound, but over the years I was able to turn her into a pretty good solo trail horse. She had done low level eventing before I got her. She is/was a good advanced beginner horse as long as the rider can deal with a brief, explosive spook. She doesn’t bolt, she hardly ever bucks, but she tends to teleport sideways, sometimes with her front hooves off the ground. And sometimes spin.
I would love another one just like her, but more brave. And if I actually found one, I’d expect to pay high-10s to low 20s for it unless it was older. I’m not shopping right now, and may not ever. (ETA: I’m not a hunter-jumper person. I mostly like to trail ride, and do really low level dressage.)
But all breeds of horses – all breeders – face the issue: if they’re breeding for the pinnacle of their chosen sport, they are going to have culls. For a lot of disciplines, this means breeding something hot and brave – but if they can’t perform, the adult ammies who make up a majority of the horse market aren’t necessarily going to want hot.
3 Likes
Like @Turntable I’ve also found that Irish horses can have just the most impeccably sensible minds. Either that or they have Cruising in their bloodlines and they see dead people 23 hours of the day and zombies for an additional 59 minutes. I worked for a farm that imported Irish horses so I rode both kinds. I do think that many of them, sensible and Cruising, are curious and busy-minded. They like to have problems to solve. If you do not occupy them, they may invent something to occupy themselves. You might not like it.
My unicorn is an ISH. Before his eyesight started fading, his “spook” was to stand still for a few moments and carefully consider the tarp blowing at him, or whatever, and then contextualize it and shrug and just go back to whatever he was doing. Now that he’s losing the ability to make sense of the world out of either eyeball, sometimes he takes some steps to the side and snorts, looks out of one eye, looks out of the other eye, okay, it’s a baby sapling wrapped in crackling plastic in the wind, that’s weird, I guess we’ll carry on. He wants to figure it out and move on. I love this spook. I would send my grandmother out on him with this spook. My first horse did not have that equanimity and preferred teleportation first, questions never. 
6 Likes
Keep in mind ISH is totally different from RID. You mentioned Cruising, who is an ISH. You mention “traditional lines” in ISH which makes me think you are thinking of RID instead. ISH is usually a mix of Irish types (Connemara, RID) x blood or WB, with the RID being generations back rather than F1 crosses. Many have less true RID in them than WBs have TB. You are saying the ISHs are more amateur friendly than WBs, but most ISHs are mostly WB these days… They are a departure from “traditional”.
RID, yes, there are sensible horses. Many RID breeders don’t want anything to do with ISH and feel it has gone away from their breed standard.
I’m going to make two vast vast generalizations about the animals of both breeds that I have ridden, that will not encompass the spectrum of lovely individuals that exist in both breeds.
My experience is that a Warmblood will spook more often but less explosively and they will spook about the same. damn. thing. every. single. time. they. see. it until you wonder if they possess the ability to learn.
The Thoroughbred will jump up in the air and click its back feet above your head because there’s someone sitting in the corner, but once it’s done, the next time, it’ll trot right by.
I would personally rather ride the latter kind of spook because I know when it’s over. People would rather share the ring with me on the former because a bucking farting gallop spree is difficult to school around.
But, going back to the unicorn, as she is of an age where going splat on the ground is very inconvenient, I do not want my mother riding either kind. I want her to ride the QH, who looks at both of the others and says “Y’all are real dumb.” And I don’t judge anyone who would find their splats to be inconvenient for wanting the latter kind, either. Or at least wanting one they know will clear the arena on the longe line in the winter, but if you do that, you can ride four times a week and still be friends with your horse. (For a junior, however, as they still bounce when they hit the ground… I personally found the experience of riding both of those types of horses to be very broadening, if you have to take something in trade for it winning the over fences and getting a piece of the flat.)
9 Likes
On the Facebook page Irish horse breeding (most people answer said horse would be worth much more, say EUR 25,000):
There seems to be hundreds of people looking for a 110/120 horse at the minute. Most seem to have 15k max to spend. I know this because I have a 6 yr old advertised atm.
My lady has 130+ scope which IMO is needed to jump today’s technical tracks for the prestigious amateur and Young Rider classes. You all know the costs to get a horse to this level.
Soooo… do you guys think 15k is a reasonable budget to aquire such an animal… good jump record with clean xrays, vetting and no quirks… and of course top breeding.
Or what should they be budgeting?
1 Like
My horse (quarter and paint) had a huge spook in a lesson the other day. He didn’t just bolt and stop, he kept bolting. Luckily I stayed on until his brain returned, processed whatever spooked him (I think it was a bird that had a nest in the roof line), then fell asleep while I talked to the trainer. Normally, when he does spook, it’s over quickly and it’s one and done.
Obviously it’s not a suitable budget but instead of tearing your hair out about a couple of naive and thin-walleted dreamers, focus on showcasing your horse in this historically favorable market and enjoying a nice payout for your hard work and quality horse.
4 Likes
I rode arabians and local/4H growing up and I must say, I took for granted the ability to lesson on a horse I didn’t own. Or even leasing a horse suited to the discipline. It seems the cow horse side of the industry isn’t as big on leasing show horses out and the two trainers in the state don’t have lesson horses.
I’m definitely jumping into the deep end a bit trying to buy an ammy friendly horse for a sport I haven’t been able to dabble in as much as I’d like with lessons. The finished horses are not cheap right now and the cost to keep fresh cows drives it higher.
3 Likes
I’m just wondering if we’re going to see a huge surplus of badly bred, mediocre horses in a few years. Backyard breeders (from what I’ve seen on a few FB groups) are seeing dollar signs and ramping up production.
5 Likes
I have a very flashy KWPN-NA Amish bred gelding. Only downside….Lucky is the registered name on his papers….
1 Like
I think part of the reason WBs are perceived as spooky and reactive is that a lot of WBs are purpose bred to be UL horses. I’ve noticed quite a few have a lot of blood and they’re bred to be careful and sensitive which makes them good athletes.
Another theory as to why WBs seem spooky and reactive is that they are probably not as desensitized to as many things and situations like an OTTB, an Amish cart horse from an auction, or a ranching horse. Those horses have seen a lot of crazy things compared to the typical WB that’s been in the same quiet barn for 4 years and only goes to shows a couple times a year with lots of prep.
10 Likes
I think this is 10000000% true.
Also, there are plenty of very calm and willing to “do whatever” WBs out there. My WB mare is a trail riding machine and is offended at the idea that she might be scared of anything. My WB gelding is the “bred to be a UL athlete/show horse”. I have exposed him to much more than the average horse, and I love to ride out. HE. DOES. NOT. We are working on it, but I suspect it will never really be his “thing”. I will not consider him a less “useful” horse because I’ll never do mounted archery on him. He was bred to be an upper level show horse and he will be quite good at that. I do love a horse that is a jack of all trades, and I’ve had that horse and treasured it, but just like people, they are all individuals and I love them for that.
FTR, my spookiest/least trust worthy horse was an ISH gelding. My quietest/least flappable was an OTTB gelding. My bravest is the WB mare.
3 Likes
I think you’re right about this part – and another generalization here: a WB is less likely to be kept where this kind of activity in their environment is the norm: IE, backyard or smaller barns where there’s everything from quads to emus running afoot… Or where they have access to tons of trails, different disciplines, etc. WBs tend to be specialists in their given discipline if they’re show horses - a hack winner is very unlikely to be used the next weekend for mounted shooting, archery, etc.
TBs, STBs, QHs are more readily available, including to the above subset of people. So it’s not uncommon to see them in these rungs or disciplines. It may just be that there is an over-representation of breeds in these disciplines just because they are more readily available.
I still am surprised about the mention of ISHs being amateur friendly. I have to assume people are referring to the RIDxTB (which can be registered ISH) when they say that. If people are finding WBs are too spooky or looky, well guess what – WBs are heavily used in ISH breeding.
Here is a good example of what ISH breeding has been like the last 20 years - this guy is a classic example of the direction ISH has taken:
https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1627748/cooley-master-class
That horse is more WB than anything else. Full WB sire, out of a 1/4 WB dam. He is 59% blood on paper, but the earliest full TB comes from his grandsire.
Pokerface, my current WB sounds exactly like your gelding! He’s gotten better at hacking out because I board and train with eventers and it’s part of that world, but it’s not his thing. His thing is jumping big jumps and doing fancy flatwork.
He’s generally very chill, but he’s also bred to be an UL jumper and that’s where his brain is best. He doesn’t have blood up close, so he doesn’t have any of that gogogo WBs with lots of blood often do and I have to keep my foot on the gas to more of an extent I ever do with TBs. With blood also often comes that super-smart, worker bee brain, and that is what he doesn’t really have; he’s not a big spooker but he will be alarmed about the same dumb things. My (now retired) TB might have spooked like a crazy person at silly things but once I told him he was fine and we could get back to work, he would get over it.
On the other hand, I taught my WB how to stand and move over and such while I open and close gates or turn off and on the indoor lights, and I can ride him around the outdoor and pull down low-hanging branches, break them off, and then drape them over his butt or drag them behind him while we walk over to the woods to ditch them. Does not care. He’s also the only one who didn’t throw a massive drama scene the first time we went to Fair Hill to ride out and we had to walk the horses through this huge metal tube to get to the fields. The TBs were convinced it was going to murder them all, couldn’t handle the noise, and threw fits the whole time. My guy was like: “Sooo, I’m actually more concerned about that big, open field, and when we get to it I’m going to buck the entire time.” 
3 Likes
I may need a flame suit on for this one BUT – here goes
I feel like most WBs are bred to be incredibly athletic and, should they choose to use their powers for evil instead of good, can really unstick a lot of riders, more so than other breeds. IMHO, the naughty version of many breeds don’t quite compare to a naughty WB. Maybe only the TB is up there for naughty agility. There is nothing quite like the ominous feeling of a WB that is stuck behind your leg, but also ready to explode.
30 Likes
A uniquely terrible feeling. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
14 Likes
I dunno if a flamesuit is needed for that. There is certainly something to be said for the WB athleticism. Some horses have a “body feel” where their movement can feel bouncy or jarring, separate from how they visually move. Which is exactly why it can be so easy to sit a nice AQHA or Appendix’s trot, or even a WB’s collected trot, but absolute hell to sit the jackhammer, unbalanced trot of a schoolie.
I actually have an easier time sitting my WB’s shenanigans (in the rare event they happen) than one of my TB’s. The TB’s movement feels SO big that any unexpected movement can make me feel unseated sometimes. Even when the WB is “up”, her movement feels smooth so it’s easy to sit. The WB is the better mover visually, although both are objectively good movers on their dressage tests (7-9 movement). I know this isn’t always the case - I remember dreading training rides on this BWP who had a very different feel under tack. Visually he looked like an elastic mover - but when you rode him you felt like you were on an undulating see-saw with no control.
I’m used to riding TBs. When I first started my WB filly, she tried to take off with me up this hill that I use as a gallop tract for the TBs. I had to laugh – bless her sweet heart – because she thought she was running away from me while I was thinking “wow… she’s slow as $hit”… I probably could have set up tea while waiting for her to get to the top!
8 Likes
