Young horse is naughty coming in from turnout.

[Wonders12]

The BO recommending Depo (assuming she doesn’t do that often) says a lot to me. Most BO/BMs don’t recommend that lightly. I only have once, and it was when I really thought my (well trained) staff were in danger handling the horse. Of course HO couldn’t see what the problem was.

You’re on the right track bringing him in every day. Once you have worked out a training program that works for you, and he is PERFECT, then you can move on to other people handling him. Not a day before.

Once he’s ok with you, choose one turn in person to work with and teach. Have her watch you one or two days. Then you walk her through it step by step one of two days. Then she does it with you watching. Then you let her do it but be in the barn, etc. Then see for a while if she can do it on her own.

Once he’s perfect for both of you, then choose the next person and go through the same process.

It could take months just to get through the first person if each person only turns in 1 or 2 times a week. But for a horse like this, inconsistent handling is the worst thing possible. So you need to be very methodical about making sure everyone knows how to handle him.

If this isn’t realistic for you do to scheduling, I would hire someone (maybe offer to pay the BO extra is she’s capable) who is confident in handling a horse like this just to do turn in when you can’t.

Oh ya, and no more treats waiting for him. So stick to that even if you feel bad.

[BeeHoney]

To start with, you can’t take the risk that your horse hurt someone else, so you need to either turn out/bring in yourself or somehow arrange to have a professional level handler do it. Also, there is nothing worse for the manners of young horses than having them handled by perfectly nice people who don’t know how to handle and correct a young horse. So, I would NOT expect that this is something that you can just “fix” and then other people in your co-op can go back to handling your horse. In that case I would expect him to quickly revert to his naughty ways. Good manners need to be reinforced daily as a habit over a decent period of time–not just a week or a month.

Now, how to manage. Often young horses are naughty being led to and from paddocks due to impatience. So when I have a youngster that really knows better but is being naughty, I slow things down. I use a regular halter and a chain shank. I run the chain over the nose, not wrapped more than one time over the noseband of the halter, I want the horse to feel it if I use it. If the horse is really bad, I’ll use a longeline with a chain to ensure that a horse can’t get away from me. Carry a dressage whip. Remove the horse from the paddock. Stand there and wait. Don’t let the horse eat grass and calmly correct any fidgeting/ fussing. As soon as the horse stands politely, then walk, slowly, back to the barn.

Any fidgeting/ fussing/ pushiness/ rudeness means that you have to stop and wait again. When I stop, I expect the horse to stop, not drag me. Dragging is corrected with a sharp tug on the chain and a tap of the whip across the front of the chest. I don’t get bent out of shape if the horse rears or fusses or carries on, but I DO NOT allow them to enter my personal space and a sharp tug on the chain or snap with the whip is a handy reminder.

If the walk back to the barn wasn’t up to standards, it might be necessary to walk back to the field or go for a walk around the farm to reinforce the lesson. The sharpness with which you correct a horse should be situationally proportional. A squirrelly youngster that hasn’t been handled much is going to be handled with a lot more patience than a cocky eight year old who is having a lapse. I’m guessing your eight year old could stand a few sharp reminders.

[RTF]

I would recommend a few lessons with someone on just leading. Especially if it is on the basics of walk, trot, halt, back up and turn out of my space. I am amazed at how many horses cannot do those things. I want my horses to lead like western showmanship horses, and I expect my students to know how to ask for the right response. I am a huge stickler on ground manners, and it is tough when different people lead them. The big thing is, the horse needs to be taught, as well as the people that are handling him. You might also be surprised that better leading leads to better riding. A horse has to respect my space though, and they have to be polite. It’s easy to read the suggestions, and all of them are spot on…but having someone show you and him could really help.

[Abracadabra]

if he broke fingers - the leader might have had the lead rope twirled around her hand/fingers? and not safely looped? something to consider?

[whichchick]

I’m on the “more beatings will fix this” train. I’m not talking abuse – you should be able to accomplish everything you need to accomplish without ever leaving a mark on your boy. However, if your horse has, in-hand, managed to damage a human being to the level of “probably needs doctoring”, his ground manners are not sufficient to the task and he needs to be fixed.

When he rears: Each and every time he takes the front feet off the ground, you have two or three seconds to convince him that this is the WORST IDEA EVER. Make the most of these opportunities. When he goes up, right away advance on him vigorously (yell, stand up straight, wave arms, look BIG). Your goal is to get him to give ground to you, to back up out of your space, to yield turf. (I’d use a dressage whip in-hand so that a safe distance can be maintained.) Act (but don’t actually be) VERY MAD. You need to be (1) quick about bringing the fury – he goes up, you get after him immediately (2) big and loud when you are correcting (people should stop and stare, like that big and loud) and (3) done in two or three seconds. Once your correction is over, you are going to act like he’s all better and will be a good boy now. So, you give back the slack in the lead rope, try leading him again.

A lot of times, people have trouble opening the door to the good boy box for their horse after a correction because “he reared last time” or whatever but it’s super important to do this. If you don’t open the door to the good boy box, your horse can’t go IN the good boy box. You gotta open the door. (He can’t open the door because he has hooves. Also, you’re the smart one and the grown-up. Open the door for him.) Offer the horse the good deal. Many times when a horse rears up, the handler lets the lead slip through their hands and backs up out his way before going “oh, yeah, that’s bad. I should correct the horse.” So then they correct, the horse comes down, and the handler comes in and holds him right up under his chin tight like as if they’re gonna hold him on the ground that way. In that situation, the horse gets slack and space WHEN HE REARS and when he puts his feet on the ground to be good, the handler hangs on tight under his chin and crowds him. This way of handling the rearing horse makes the right thing (fronts on the ground) uncomfortable and the wrong thing (rearing up) comfortable.

What you want to do is if he rears up, you go after him and really make the rearing up unpleasant for him. You get big and loud and scary and whap on him with your dressage whip so that he backs up away from you and (hopefully) puts his feet back down. (If your horse falls over, trying to scramble out of your way, which he probably will not, let him stand back up and think about things and then lead him off again like he was sane. It is no big deal, don’t treat it like one.) So, you’ve moved him out of your space and whapped him a couple of times and he’s put his feet down on the ground. Rearing and correction is over. What next? You soften your body language and gather him back up, with about a foot and a half of lead rope between YOUR HAND and HIS CHIN. That slack is the open door to the good boy box. You gotta open the door to the good boy box so that he can go in it. And now go to lead him off. If he goes up again, you repeat what you did before, same as you did before. Be consistent. It will likely take a while to fix him if he’s a confirmed rearer.

When he runs over your body or tries to shoulder you out of the way: This is a total lack of respect and a failure to grasp the basics of leading. When he does this, back him up, immediately and with violence. I use knotted rope halters (which most horses respect pretty well) because they don’t overtighten and release immediately when the horse gives, but if flat halter and chain is what you’re comfortable with, use that. (There is nothing magical about knotted rope halters but they are a well-designed tool for working with misbehaving horses.) Back him up a lot, briskly, vigorously, and loudly. (Again, bystanders should think you’re “killing” him but mostly it’s not a contact sport. You use big and loud body language plus a few well timed yanks on the halter to move him out of the way.) Twenty feet is not excessive – during the backing up (which should take three to four seconds) he should be working quite hard to give you ground and not fall over. He should be almost scrambling backward. You really want him to rethink his life choices, here, and he’s not going to do that with a careful and sedate backing up experience. When you’ve backed him up for your couple of seconds, release, be soft, take a deep breath and relax, and continue on. Remember to open the door to the good boy box – he gets about a foot and a half of space on the lead between his chin and your hand. If he’s good, he continues. If he’s bad (takes out the slack by zooming forward), you go back into Boss mode and back him up again with the same Sound&Fury violence (and a few well-timed yanks, but not more than is necessary – a lot of the time you don’t have to yank more than once or twice and then just keep your body and voice loud and scary to keep him moving his feet) you used before. Again, once you’re done correcting, give him back the slack and expect that he’ll be good. It will probably take consistent treatment over a period of time for him to get the idea, here, especially if he’s been allowed to be wrong for a while. Don’t give up.

Good leading manners are a horse that respects the slack – that leads all over, around any obstacle, on a trailer, through an in-hand trail course, at the walk or trot or canter, to halt, all the time with that same drape in the lead. A horse’s leading job to watch you and go where/when you go at the speed you go and stop and wait patiently (without fussing) for you when you stop. EVERY TIME. He should do this for you (the owner) and also for all people who handle him. This is totally a reachable goal and it’s one well worth pursuing. Also, typically improvement in the “on the ground” relationship generates improvement in the “in the saddle” relationship, so there’s another reason it’s worth doing.

[Zippy]

Thank you so much!!! I feel as if I have more tools at my disposal now. I have let it be known as of today at the barn that I will be the one bringing him in at night for a while. Will let you all know how it goes.

[Boo]

Whichchick - great post

Can i ask what he’s being fed too please? Honestly i’d be inclined to take it back to the bare minimum so hes not got extra energy either. And by that i mean hay and supps only etc. If he loses a bit of weight it won’t hurt him (i don’t mean skinny but being lean will help his brain). I personally feel most horses are very overfed. Pretty much every horse i’ve had (or varying types/doers) have all been on hay, supps and a pathetic amount of energy feed. The most i’ve ever fed was about 500g and my current mare is only on 200g/day. Shes a lazy type but shes never felt like shes not had enough energy to work.

[Zippy]

Yeah! When he came to me he was only getting shredded beet pulp (like, a vat of it) and hay. I couldn’t manage that at a boarding barn, so from me he gets 3/4 q of low-carb pellets twice a day, and all the hay he wants. He’s outside 9 to 10 hours most days, and I try to ride him six days a week. His weight is good but I’ve noticed he puts it on fast. I’ve already cut his grain once. Whaddaya think? He’s mostly a solid citizen under saddle but his jumping is still a little demented.

BTW, I brought him in today twice–once in the late afternoon for my farrier, and once at the usual dinnertime. He was completely good both times. He def noticed I was carrying the dressage whip, but it was more like, Huh, that’s interesting. I did tap him a few times to ask him to stay even with me, and he was fine with that. I even made him stop in his tracks a couple of times. Like I said, he’s a smart little punk. I don’t think he will do it to me.

[silverdog]

Ugg. I feel your pain. That is my horse but on the way out in the morning. Unfortunately the barn help and BO used to take him and his pasture mate out first. Very few problems. Now they take them out last. He spends the night in a pen with 2 mares penned beside him. For some idiotic reason they turn them out first so he throws a holy fit in his pen and then they are too intimidated to lead him out. So I have been leading him out w/o any issues at all. I know he can be naughty - he has been tricky to handle when on stall rest with hand walking. Unfortunately when he doesn’t think he is going to get his way, he gets mad and throws a fit. He walks in perfectly every time. I do not want this horse tearing around a small paddock so they are leaving him in at night and once every one is turned out he will spend the day in his small paddock until the ground dries up a bit and he seems to be behaving better. He lost 2 shoes in a week so I am trying to avoid that - caused by tearing around in muddy footing. Hopefully they could just lead him out first.
It is so challenging. I provide a good rope halter and am accepting of them not turning him out when he is bad because I don’t want him to hurt anyone. I think part of the problem is that the BO yells at the horses when they misbehave - that is generally ineffective in my experience.
Good luck. Nice that you have an understanding co-op partner. I have lead in some really bad horses and it sucks!!

[Gamma]

First thing, I would leave the nose chain on his halter permanently when you’re not there (if you wrap it enough times, you can put the halter on without adjusting the chain and it is still effective). Leave his halter by his location (stall or pasture), so that everyone can always use that halter for him. If he has to be led out in an emergency (or if you can’t be there for some emergency of your own) you want him to be as safe as possible. (You might want to get a cheap-o halter for leading, if yours is too nice to leave laying around.)

Second, it can be hard to teach walk nicely, it’s probably teach him something else that is incompatible with misbehaving. Like “stand square” and “back” and “turn on the haunches”. If he’s highly food motivated, that’s good–you can use a clicker and treats on the ground (never out of hand for a highly food motivated horse who’s already a bit uppity). Start in the ring, 5-10 minutes every day. Once he’s figured out what the cue for stand square is and that it gets a reward, start doing it when you’re leading him in, 2-3 times on the walk in (depending on how long your walk is). Hopefully by this point he’s thinking so hard and paying attention to you, waiting for the cue (you also have to teach “walk on”–once he learns that standing gets a reward, he might try doing it randomly–emphasize that it only gets a reward when you ask for it). Then start introducing other people leading him and asking for a stand square. By this point, he should be all eyes on anyone leading him, and if he starts acting flighty you can ask for a stand square then to get his attention back.

Here is a YouTube video for inspiration.

[hoopoe]

I would agree with those hear mentioning the use of crop or bat. whacks on the chest when a horse barges forward or into you is horse speak. The understand being kicked in the chest

I would also consider what order he is brought in. It may be best if he is brought in first to make sure the barging is not to get to the barn to be with buddies.

I would not put down food in advance. Make him wait in stall for food rather than it being there when he gets in ( a reward)

[Pennywell_Bay]

1. Chain over nose, don’t be afraid to use it.
2. Practice ground manners, with chain over nose
3. Crop, dressage whip, beating utensil
4. I am not opposed to seeing that he is not the last brought in. This can make a lot loose their minds, but he should still be obedient.
5. I’d meet with the other Co-op people to show them how you are addressing this. Be there when they bring him in.
6. He’ll try to take advantage, keep that in mind especially in the cooler weather
7. RE: going to depo… I am not opposed but this is almost certainly a behavior issue not related to hormones. Get his ass in line to avoid another discipline issue popping up in some other way.

A CTJ meeting is in order. I suspect he has other bad ground manners that precipitates this behavior. I’d lurk and if he does his behavior with others, I’d walk out, take the shank and we’d have a discussion on proper behavior on the spot.

[merrygoround]

The unfortunate thing about a co-op barn is that there are those who never follow the steps.

There are no short cuts in dealing with horses. there is a routine, and even though it sometimes seems more expedient to cut corners, it usually turns out that in the long run it takes more time.

Two days ago at bring in time, one clown bumped me as I was handling another guy. He got a quick swat and yell. When it was his turn to come in, he approached with due caution. Response must be instantaneous and clear.

[akor]

If he thinks he is going to die when he does it, he will think twice about it the next time. It’s nice if you can find something he HATES (in my herd, ranges from a yell with my arms up over my head and acting crazy to a stern lecture to yes, physical punishment. Find a VERY strong whip/tool with a bite to it and make sure you get him somewhere not pleasant at the very first disobedience.

I have a mare that was VERY nasty to my other mare in the run in with me there and I fixed it. 3 years later, she WILL NOT even enter the run in if she can see me and the other horse is there. Unfortunate it came to that, but she is 1300 pounds with teeth and hooves that can maim/kill me without much thought. So, some things are just. Not. Tolerated.

Be a herd leader. A horse herd leader. They don’t mess around. If “all” you have is a whip and a shank, maybe a chain, you can’t inflict the pain/discomfort that a kick/bite from the lead horse does. I think people who end up with these problems have not seen horses sort things out themselves enough.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

Ha! I think we have the same horse, except mine is a hot little TB who probably has a secret chemistry lab in the back of his stall where he’s working on world domination.

He’s usually at home, where I handle him every day. After a rough start when he first came as a 3YO in 2012, he is mostly polite. However, he looks for ways to get the upper hand. Therefore, I consistently take away his privileges. Before he’s allowed to eat his dinner, he MUST drop his head to the ground, back in the corner and STAY THERE until I say he can eat. If he’s being a particular jackhole, he may have to wait several minutes while I blanket him, fix his hay net, generally wander around, act like I’m going to walk out of the stall–but if he moves, he gets the “ACCCHHHTTT!” noise and has to get back in the corner.

If I lead him out to hand graze, he has to wait and stand politely and put his ears up before he’s allowed to do so (although he will stride out there with his ears pinned–he knows better than to snake his head at me).

He gets led with a chain over his nose and, when I feel he might pull something, a stick in my hand. I have both hands on the shank: my right hand is just below the end of the chain and the left hold the looped slack.

What kind of whip I use and how I hold it depends on the situation. If he’s likely to be reticent, like getting on the trailer, it’s a dressage whip in my left hand with the butt facing forward so I can tickle him with it. If he’s likely to be distracted (on a cool morning headed to turnout), I use a jumping bat upside down in my right hand. That way it’s already up if he needs something dramatic, like a slap on the chest. But usually, because he knows the job for which that tool is intended, I can also just lay it against the side of his muzzle so the popper is in sight. I’m not hitting him in the face or even being abrupt about placing it there: you can lay it there for a few seconds as just a reminder of, “hey, pay attention.” I learned that one from a hunter breeding handler who dealt with a lot of smart-ass yearling and 2YO colts.

He’s recently moved to a boarding barn and I warned the staff that he could get rank–and I chose this particular barn because of who they have handling the horses. I’ve been sick for the last week and found out that he’s shown his true colors by doing his black stallion routine and rearing and pawing the air, and they’ve clearly established the ground lines with him again. It was only a matter of time before he tried it. Sounds like your horse will do the same thing with every new person that comes along, so they better all be on the same page.

[purplnurpl]

Going through this EXACT thing with my 3 y/o.

I do the wrapped chain. I carry the whip. The 3rd thing I did was… I stopped feeding her when I would bring her in.

That is what made the difference. She doesn’t eat enough to HAVE to be feed twice. So she gets fed once a day now. Mid day when I’m home, or before turnout when my parents take care of her. I work 24/48s.

This stopped the crazy behavior in ONE day.
She would come running to the gate. Run and buck and snort. Then would almost run me over coming through the gate and then stand and buck. And be a general PITA all the way to the barn. This went on for a month. I finally admitted that I hated her… So I started treating her like I hated her. Not gonna lie, she received a good ass whooping and lost food privileges all within two days.Lol. It worked. I like her again.
She stands quietly at the gate. And her feet stay on the ground. And she is no longer pushy.

I think it was the feeding.