Young horse swapping behind

[MapleLeaf]

I have a 5 year old 17 hand warmblood that is lovely in every way, except we are having trouble with the canter. This has been consistent since I bought him, but after a year of slowly building his strength, I expected this issue to resolve. He has days where he won’t swap behind, but it’s not uncommon for a swap each way in the warmup on his good days. I warm him up with lots of stretching in all three gaits. He does better holding his lead if I get him stretching through his back down and out and if I really don’t have much contact. On a “bad” day, he swaps much more frequently when tracking left, but he will also swap from the right lead. Sometimes he will do a full flying change, but other times he just changes behind. I can tap him with the whip and sometimes he will change back.

He had a grown spurt last summer and is very leggy and so I assumed it was stifle weakness. I have been doing cavaletti and rein-back in addition to asking him to lift up his hind legs one at a time (in preparation for half step training). This is in addition to lots of transition work. We have a small hill in the area, but we have only done occasional hill work due to weather, etc.

Now that I am finding that he does better with light contact with a very low neck, I am beginning to think it may be an issue in his neck. To the left, on a bad day he does not really want to truly bend in the canter, but instead seems to want to push his hind quarters out and lean on the shoulders. I can quietly rock him back and keep him up, but he will still find a way to swap on a turn if he’s not feeling balanced.

He has a low right front hoof that we use a small wedge pad to build to a normal angle. He is sound and is a beautiful, big mover.

If he just needs more time and conditioning, that I am happy to do. However, I don’t want to be ignoring something physical if he needs some help. I had my local vet check him out this Spring and she thought he was just weak behind. However, she’s not exactly a sporthorse vet. I am considering taking him to a big clinic for a work-up, but thought I’d see if others have had this issues with big, leggy horses.

[Simkie]

I had this issue with a little, terribly athletic horse. Never really did get it figured out, but looking back, I’d bet a hundred bucks it was a problem in the SI area. We focused on the stifles and never really found anything. This was before SI troubles were really widely known or discussed.

A visit to the big clinic for a full workup is a good idea! :yes:

[IPEsq]

SI would be a common cause for this. But it could also be his neck, especially if you are noticing a change with changes in carriage or bend.

Client’s horse was recently retired due to issues from degeneration in the neck. His primary symptom was inability to hold the left lead canter behind. Started out as only on the longe line. And sometimes he couldn’t hold the right. Progressed to doing it under saddle. SI was injected twice, along with right stifle in 2 locations and hocks also twice. No improvement from any of it as to the swapping (some lameness that was also present on RH did improve). Then he started being intermittently lame up front, occasionally having trouble backing up, etc. The neck was investigated, and a lot of stuff was found. Some developmental, some degenerative. Neck was injected also with no improvement.

Another client’s horse also just had trouble knowing where his hind legs were. Would often land cross cantering. Usually would fix it. Flying change was very difficult. He felt gangly and weak and tilted his pelvis in corners. I had him worked up, and he had some significant SI pain. Also some front foot issues. Chiro vet who also evaluated him suspected a neck issue as well, but that was not pursued. Horse was only temporarily in my care due to seasonal amenities. Horse needed a lot more education on how to work properly before drawing those conclusions IMO, although I was always suspicious of all the cross cantering (apparently passed a PPE fine).

In both of the above cases, the horses also did block to the front feet, bilaterally. Yet improving front foot comfort only did so much. Both did have SI pain. But SI pain is often secondary. Made more sense for horse #2 because he was very young and very big. Horse #1 not so much (older and smaller, although a bit of a TB with long back cannons). Although, SI issues can come from sore front feet and unloading a sore SI could cause sore front feet. Neck issues can cause some heavier way of going on the forehand too that can cause sore front feet.

Considering the work you’ve put in, a workup from a good lameness vet would be a good next step.

[ndirish07]

My horse while not young is a larger bodied warmblood cross at 17H. He had a sketchy training background before I got him and didn’t really know all that much. About a year or so into owning him I began noticing he was off on his leads. Initially I thought it was behind and he would land cross-cantering from jumps–I chalked it up to lack of muscling, my riding, and his lack of training. I had my vet check him over and she discovered he has a sticky right stifle so we did a course of estrone and kept on for awhile.

I later realized that when I went back to watch videos he was actually changing up front. I just recently had my vet out again for a preventative jog/look over and come to find out, his front feet, in particularly the left front was sore and he has the start of some very minor navicular changes. Horse jogged and flexed totally fine. The “lameness” on the front was maybe a 1, but only on hard gravel and going in a small circle. We did a block on that foot and then x-rayed both feet. I’ve done a course of adequan and he feels like a million bucks and the lead changing has stopped (he’s also in pads up front now). So while I wouldn’t necessarily discount the stifle or possible SI involvement it could be feet too. As my vet said it’s almost like a chicken and the egg-- you don’t know what really caused what. My vet suggested looking at the SI next and possibly taking him to Rood and Riddle for a bone scan to get a better idea which area was the more likely culprit–stifle, feet, or SI.

[kiwichick]

This could be a wobbler. Thats a pretty common sign on a wobbler.
That said though its a common problems too with many various sources. My solid cob has done it all his life, (he is only 6 so im hoping it will resolve!) but initially what I put down to just a strength and growth issue, went well beyond that.
Ive had several people look at him and a full lameness work up at the equine hospital and there is no obvious cause. However he has gotten better as he has gotten older, and my latest therapist has found an issue within a ligament in a stifle that she is working on, he now swaps straight through, which is excellent.

Anyway sorry, if you have identified the neck as a possible spot of the source of the issue id be having him checked as a wobbler syndrome horse, adn I really hope he isnt.

[fordtraktor]

I would worry about SI first, then stifles. Since your horse isn’t stopping since he is getting fitter (fix for basic stifles) I might do a bone scan and see what lights up before chasing both.

I have had a wobbler and he didn’t crossfire. He did fall down and wasn’t comfortable picking his feet. It would be lower on my radar.

[drafting_dots]

Speaking from personal experience-- he’s young and large, if he is still sound I would either give him a few months off and see what you have after or keep going as you are for another few months and see if it worsens. Posting on here can lead you down many stressful and expensive rabbit holes.

Do you have a trainer? Are you really doing the amount of work needed to keep the horse fit? I’ve been told you need to work up to 30 min of trot to really see improvements in the stifle. I’m not saying there isn’t anything wrong with him, but there are other avenues to pursue before going straight to career ending neck or neuro issues.

[MapleLeaf]

Wow. Thank you for all of the thoughtful and detailed responses. Lots to consider. This horse is the “dream horse” that I saved for a very long time to be able to afford. I’m hoping that whatever is going on can be remedied.

One thing I forgot to mention is that it seems to get worse when he is tense and his back is tight. If it’s a blustery day and he is keyed up, we’ll definitely have some swaps. I think that maybe leans in the directions of neck/back issue and less feet/stifle, but who knows. He probably has multiple issues at this point.

I have worried about so many possibilities, but SI was not really on my radar until mentioned above. He’s so darn young, but I’m guessing he could have done something stupid in the field at any point. I also would not be surprised at all if his front feet have some soreness. He is in a fancy setup of pads and pour pad in pads for horse shoes, but we may still not have it quite right.

I have some work commitments that won’t allow me to get away for a few weeks, but I think I will seek out a big clinic and suggest a bone scan. I have a feeling that I could chase this rabbit pretty far down the whole with blocks and x-rays, so I think hitting a big gun diagnostic early in the process may help.

Between Virginia Equine Imaging and New Bolton, does anyone have experiences or preferences? I could probably also make it to Rood an Riddle, but it’s a bit more of a hike. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[IPEsq]

With these really big guys, I’m finding a lot of SI issues just as they go through growth spurts in the 5-7 year range. Maybe secondary, and maybe not all showing a symptom of a lead swap but other issues in canter.

[raisethebar]

Definitely SI issues… My young horse had the swapping behind issues for a time period during a growth spurt at 4-5. I would not give a horse with SI issues off as I have been told by multiple people that it would make it worse with the lack of fitness. Lots of hill work, backing up a slight hill, raised cavalletis, etc. First step is to make them comfortable with the injection and second step is to get them properly fit and working.

I just went through 6 months worth of vet work with my young horse - now 7. The SI issues started around 5 but we did constant chiro work that definitely helped. Hindsight - I totally should have nipped it in the bud and did the injection but my vets at the time were trying to go less invasive routes first. I would have saved myself lots of money and other issues long term. In my research and talking with other young horse owners, I have come across a LOT of SI issues in horses around 5-7 years old.

At my old barn, another young horse had the same issue. SI injection fixed it.

A friend had a 7 year old who had the same symptoms. Got the SI injected and sold the horse and the new owners never had any issues with it. 2 years later haven’t needed it done again.

Sounds like you have a great team behind you so I would highly encourage a lameness exam at a good vet.

I TOTALLY wish I trusted my gut and took a step back at 5 years instead of 7. I got a bone scan done in Feb. and sure enough, the SI lit up. We worked through primary and secondary issues and now worked our way back to the SI and will be injecting it this Friday.

I hope you find the answers. If this is your forever horse (as mine is too) take it from me and definitely get a work up now. You will certainly prevent a lot of issues that you don’t forsee coming by nipping things in the bud now.

[Encourage]

Take him to the clinic, get a lameness specialist to get eyes on him. Trust me- I am going through something similar to raisethebar. My biggest regret it being conservative and using my regular vet for her issues. After a year of chasing a lameness that he couldn’t figure out, her SI lit up on the bone scan. Injections have done little to help, and we’re finally working with a lameness specialist vet who is doing what he can for us. If I had known then what I know now, I would’ve been to this specialist vet when it all began.

Best of luck.

[findeight]

Don’t think it’s fair to say it’s definately anything. There are several possibilities ranging from SI to OCD interfering with hocks to stifles to neck to neuro to just a growth spurt in a big 5 year old WB who is going thru a klutz phase trying to figure out his body parts. He might not be ready for what he’s being asked to do, the jumping and lead changes. It’s is also possible he might be working too hard for his individual growth stage. He’s 5 and some WBs are slower then others to really get a handle on things, especially the bigger ones.

Cant point to anything specific as the cause without seeing and knowing the horse. A full lameness evaluation would be a good start, full exam meaning observation then blocks and imaging as indicated. Clinic setting allows the best results with the best equipment and access to specialists as indicated. Trying to chase these things on farm calls with portable equipment can be one of the rabbit holes you want to stay out of. Get it done right.

[2tempe]

Had older (22 at the time) who had trouble holding leads, and was definitely more comfortable working long and low. He had cervical arthritis. Agree with above posters, have him gone over stem to stern - it will be worth it in the end.
Secondly, noted the high/low front hoof comment. Had a mare with this, and was told not to try and make the hooves the same - long term problematic. Check w/ vet also on the use of pad. Strict shoeing schedule and xrays to help understand angles. Good info here:https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…-a-clubby-foot

[MapleLeaf]

I had a big university equine hospital work up the high/low hoof issue. He had a 0 degree palmer angle, so we had to add a bit of wedge. We only added one degree wedge pad and the pour in, and he was much more comfortable. We have followed up with x-rays this year and the angle is perfect. As you say, the hooves do not match but he is more structurally aligned now. I feel like I’m on the right path with the front feet at least, haha. Now to figure out everything else.

He is big and I’ve been taking it slow with him because of it. He’s really not being asked to do anything overly strenuous for a five year – training and first level work with an emphasis on the right balance/connection and transitions within and between gaits. He works 4 days a week for about 45 minutes and sometimes finish with hacking in the fields. He spends 12+ hours turned out each day or night.

Thanks for all of the advice and shared experiences. It’s definitely helpful to hear what has worked and what hasn’t.

[2tempe]

@MapleLeaf

I had a big university equine hospital work up the high/low hoof issue. He had a 0 degree palmer angle, so we had to add a bit of wedge. We only added one degree wedge pad and the pour in, and he was much more comfortable. We have followed up with x-rays this year and the angle is perfect. As you say, the hooves do not match but he is more structurally aligned now. I feel like I’m on the right path with the front feet at least, haha. Now to figure out everything else.

He is big and I’ve been taking it slow with him because of it. He’s really not being asked to do anything overly strenuous for a five year – training and first level work with an emphasis on the right balance/connection and transitions within and between gaits. He works 4 days a week for about 45 minutes and sometimes finish with hacking in the fields. He spends 12+ hours turned out each day or night.

Thanks for all of the advice and shared experiences. It’s definitely helpful to hear what has worked and what hasn’t.

Glad to hear re the feet. It was “early coffee” when I read the first time. This ^^ makes sense. Good luck with your boy.

[Simkie]

FWIW, the C6/C7 malformation thing sometimes presents with the horse slightly pointing one front foot, and that stance can lead to the one up/one down hoof issues your horse seems to have. A LOT of things can cause that, though. Since you’re concerned about the neck, this might be something to consider.

Here’s an article on the C6/C7 malformation: https://thehorsesback.com/c6-c7-malformation/

[raisethebar]

@Encourage - PM’d you!

[Mayaty02]

Alot of possibilities here. I know a horse who had trouble holding a hind lead and it was a neck issue. Diagnosed via bone scan at New Bolton and injected and he doesn’t do it anymore.

[ladipus]

I would say 2 things come to mind immediately as I have 3 horses with varying degrees of what you’re describing …either a neck issue such as wobblers or epm …I would have your Horse checked by a qualified lameness/sport Horse vet for lameness /neuro exam and pull blood for epm and Lyme

[gumtree]

As you can see by the various comments there could be one or a number of “complicated” things going on. IME and experience even for a warmblood I don’t consider 5 as being young. I think you have been doing the right things by and large based on face value of what the horse is showing. Yes, “strengthening” which is usually the first “go to” and the first to be offered as a "treatment. It can and does change things but IME it shouldn’t take a year. IME letting this happen for such a long period of time is counter productive.

It can exacerbate what ever is causing him to do this. Most horse if not all horse will “look for” pain relief by using, compensating with other parts of their body. This can and does stress other things which will go south given time and needed to be address at some point and could add significant more down time and expense. You also run a high risk of the horse’s compensation to become a habit, ingrained. This can and does time a lot of time for them to get over. A real PITA, ask me how I know.

Keep in mind that bone scans, aka nuclear scintigraphy is relativity new. It is not like taking an x-ray, where things are usually visibly cut and dry to the well schooled eye. X-ray imaging has been around for many decades The “learning curve” has been pretty much eliminated. Bone scans only reveals “hot spots” for lack of a better way of putting it. What it show has to be interrupted. The cause and effect is subjective. The value of any bone scan is entirely based on the expertise person/s reading them. Not that much different than an US As with both at times IMO and expensive education. I feel it is always worth spending a few extra dollars to send the digital file to another vet team for a second opinion. I send direct with no comments included from the attending vet/s.

I have had 2 horses who’s bone scans were misdiagnosed. Adding considerable time and expense to the process of getting them to come right. I don’t blame the vets I understand it is not an exact science and no one has the prefect crystal ball. But IMO they should rebate some money, give credit toward other work/treatments that were needed to sort things out. An apology would be nice to.

When considering a bone scan IME the attending vet generally will only perform it on a specific “suspect” area of the horse. IMO and expensive experience ask how much more it will cost to have the entire horse scanned. Esp with a horse that has had long term issues. The team may think the issues being shown are in a certain area. Good chance there is something going on in that area. But it maybe the result of “compensation” as I talked about above. So the real problem will not be looked at. IME the first horse I had scanned this turned out to be the case. It shouldn’t cost that much more to scan more of the horse. The clinic doesn’t have to block out anther time slot, the horse is already “nuked” etc. So it is not double the cost. I know, I found this out after the fact. IMO/E worth asking.

IMO and expensive experience it is worth spending the money early on for mysterious issues. Going down the list of possible inexpensive “treatments” adds up. Yes, I understand the term, “no foot, no horse”. But IME I have found there can be too much emphases put on correcting subtle feet issues. IMO and expensive education I have learned to bite the bullet and pay for a complete work up. Before spending hundreds of dollars on corrective shoeing, bone scan and a multitude of other “ideas” that can take a considerable amount of time to find out if who is right or wrong.

IMO take the horse to the best sports vet in your area. For a complete series of “block and ride”. Stem to stern. Preferably a clinic that has really good riding surface to work with. A clinic that has the size and type of an US machine needed if it is determined that blocking for a possible SI condition is warranted. This can take a few hours to all day and possibly a follow up the next day. IME the entire process is videoed so things can be looked at, reviewed closely. The cost for a stem to stern examination would vary depending on location, clinic, time, etc. Around $1,500 2,000±.

After this is done the team should be able to decide if the expense of a bone scan would be worth while. Or any other diagnostics. Down time is expensive, esp if the owner is paying board. Down time is boring and frustrating. But far more so of both if things don’t come right in 6-12 months. IME if you spend the money early you have a far better chance of things coming right quickly. Not having to start all over again 6-12 months later.

IMO/E I leaned a long time ago not to rely on my general practitioner. No disrespect to vets that fall under that category of vets. I seek out and spend my money only on those who are highly specialized with the issues that are going on. Ones that have spent YEARS of acquiring that level expertise.

Va Equine is/was a well respected clinic. Haven’t use them in years so I don’t know anybody there anymore. I am in the Unonville Pa area and have the New Bolton Clinic and my backyard. My go to sports vet there is Dr Elizabeth Davidson who is also a H/J rider. Love using vets that own and ride horses. NB also had an excellent indoor with perfect footing to perform visual under saddle examinations and “block and rides”. My favorite sports vet is Dr. Kevin Keene straight forward no nonsense and a great guy to work with. One of the most respected in the country. His clinic is much smaller in size and scope. But there is a decent area for lunging and riding,doing routine blocking etc. He works with the folks at NB and has no problem saying it would be better to take the horse there if he feel is would be better for all concerned. Esp the owners bank account, lol. Kevin is a top armature Event rider also.

OP I am not one to say what you have going on. I never get into that sort of thing unless the horse is in front of me or between my legs. Just throwing out my experience over the years of working with LOTS of horses and lots of “mystery issues”. Mine and clients. Used to do a fair amount of sorting out stuff, re-hab for clients. Good luck!! Give me a broken bone, pulled tendon any day. So much easier to figure out, lol.