Young horse that toes out - opinions?

[RavtoadOH]

Hi all,

Let me preface this that I’ve been riding and competing for a very long time and spent many years working with young horses and bringing them up from unbacked up to the mini prix ranks.

There is a very nice coming 2 year old that I’ve had interest in that toes moderately out from the knee down (seller states this has been from birth and not a random occurrence in a growth spurt). Conformationally aside from that, he is built well. Normally I tend to go for horses that have a very correct leg structure, but I do like this horse and see potential. I’ve also seen other horses in SJ that were not built the best and still excelled.

What are your thoughts on horses that toe out? If the horse was otherwise correct, moved nicely, and showed potential, would you pass or consider moving forward with a purchase (including an involved PPE of course)? This horse would end up hopefully at the 1.2-1.3m level, not looking for a Grand Prix or high level prospect at this stage.

[JB]

Picture? What does “toes moderately out” really mean? Is it a 10* deviation, 30*?

[Paint_Party]

Yes, photos would help. Moderately toeing out could be a subjective analysis.

At least you’ve seen the horse in person. A friend of mine bought a well bred, very fancy 3-year old off video. Had a thorough PPE done. The vet did note there was a “slight deviation on the left front leg, toeing out.” Horse arrived at the barn and it was the most crooked leg from the knee down I’ve ever seen. Otherwise a lovely, sweet horse and a big mover. But chronically unsound due to suspensory issues in that leg. If I were buying a jumper prospect, I’d be wary because you don’t know how well the horse will stand up to regular work and schooling.

However, there are very, very few conformationally correct horses. And the fact that he toes out on both front legs might actually be better than just one leg being off the plumb. So there is that.

[RavtoadOH]

Not severe, but there’s definitely moderate deviation. Also to note, this is a long yearling that is TALL. Currently standing at 16.2. I have no issues with larger horses and have had a handful over the years in the 17.2-17.3 range, but it does hit the concern button for me that he does not have perfect legs.

I’ve seen horses have less of a toe out stance once they widen out through the chest and shoulder with maturity, but there’s no guarantee that will happen.

This horse is very well bred and has a proven dam that was a 1.4 horse in Europe. She has had other foals that did not toe out, including one by the same sire as the guy pictured.

[RavtoadOH]

The breeder has been very upfront on his conformation issues from the start, which I greatly appreciated. That’s awful on your friend’s horse, especially considering that there was a PPE done. Sounds like a case where the vet performing it may have had incentives to downplay, which I’ve sadly seen before.

In terms of PPE to be done here if I did decide to go forward, it would be full rads done of knee down to hoof.

[Lusoluv]

As others have said on threads re: questionable conformation, there are too many nice horses out there to take on an issue that’s potentially troublesome. Jumping at moderate heights stresses the front legs, so why buy a horse with ANY front end weakness or imperfection, let alone an issue that is pretty significant? Yes, you might “get lucky”, but who wants the added stress hanging over his career?

[RavtoadOH]

This is true, the main benefit here is he is at a substantially lower price because of the toeing out. A proven dam both comp wise and as a broodmare is a large part of the incentive to me, anyone can find a great sire (which he has) but the dam line is the enticement for me. He’s also a very nice mover and balanced outside of toeing out.

Obviously a lower price point is a big influence as well. The breeder has been honest and forthright on top of this. I’m just not at the stage where I can be spending 30-40k on another horse at the moment. That said, there’s always the chance he won’t be able to compete at the modest level or have soundness issues down the road. But I’ve also seen that on conformationally “perfect” horses as well.

[Demerara_Stables]

This amount wouldn’t concern me. My very good, barefoot specialist farrier said that he sees a lot of young horses like this that improve as they grow and widen at the chest. As he explains it, as the chest widens, the legs rotate inwards so they become more straight. I have not confirmed this with my vet but it made sense to me. 🤷

ETA this only wouldn’t concern me if the angle was the same bilaterally. If it was one leg (as was the case on a horse I looked at), I would pass.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Lusoluv

As others have said on threads re: questionable conformation, there are too many nice horses out there to take on an issue that’s potentially troublesome. Jumping at moderate heights stresses the front legs, so why buy a horse with ANY front end weakness or imperfection, let alone an issue that is pretty significant? Yes, you might “get lucky”, but who wants the added stress hanging over his career?

Because there aren’t actually that many well bred, nice moving young horses out there that are perfect conformationally. Until you look for yourself, you don’t know what’s actually out there.

[RavtoadOH]

I’ve seen very near close to perfect (I hate using the term because I don’t think it actually exists) horses.

The most conformationally correct and breathtaking horses I ever saw I knew from 2 months old. This horse absolutely cleaned up in hand and was incredible from 2 months to about 3 years old, then matured into a complete dud. Went from a 10 mover to average, had major soundness issues that were oddly mysterious despite a correct start, and was unsound from 5 onwards to the point where he couldn’t do basic flat work.

[Aussie_2020]

I don’t understand how a growing horse that widens in the chest improves on legs that toe out from the knees down.

Personally for me, that twist at the right knee is a no if I were buying a horse I had big plans for.

[Demerara_Stables]

Yes, the fun of babies.

Sent you a PM

[Demerara_Stables]

I agree with you, but these knees aren’t exactly pointing straight forward.

[skydy]

I wouldn’t chance that in what will be a very large horse, meant to be a jumper. Very large horses put a lot of weight on their joints, especially when jumping.

Sometimes they do widen and straighten out a little, but this one is beyond what I’d risk, especially for a jumper.
If you are OK with losing his purchase price if he doesn’t work out and you like him that much, go for it. I wouldn’t.

[RavtoadOH]

I do agree with you to a point, there are many nice young horses out there, but very few that don’t have some sort of conformational or movement flaw to some degree. I’ve never personally owned or trained a horse that toes out like this, but I do know others that have and the majority of them didn’t have issues.

Would that be the case for this guy? I simply don’t know at this age and stage.

Another aspect in this is I’m not going to be super active on the show circuit and I don’t need an incredibly competitive SJ for top level comps anymore. I’m perfectly happy having a moderately competitive horse that I show 1x a month or every other month in a few classes. Scope and movement are important to me, as well as trainability. Obviously soundness, but that’s why I made the post to begin with

Young horses are a gamble even when you go buy a 50k 2 year old that seems like it has every mark of being a top Grand Prix horse and ends up not being close to hitting the mark. I’ve seen and handled anything and everything in between.

[JB]

@RavtoadOH

Also to note, this is a long yearling

How many months? 22 months is a very different story from 16 months (and “long yearling” doesn’t really have a defined # of months)

I see legs that are rotated out fairly high up, these don’t rotate just below the knee. And at 16.2 already, there’s a lot of growing left to do, which means a lot of widening to do which will start rotating the whole leg inward as the chest widens.

@RavtoadOH

She has had other foals that did not toe out, including one by the same sire as the guy pictured.

They did toe out as foals and into the yearling year to some degree, or they’d be toed-in as adults. Do you mean they’re adults and aren’t currently toed out?

This IS enough of a deviation that it’s very likely it will remain, but at a reduced angle

[Lusoluv]

I’ve spent the last 2 months horse shopping and traveled abroad twice in the process. I turned down 2 beautiful, well-bred horses at the recommendation of my sport horse vet. Was it hard and disappointing - absolutely! I know there aren’t perfect horses, but high performance functionality doesn’t leave much room for error. YMMV.

[Aussie_2020]

I know, that’s why I said it twists at the knees, especially the right one. I can see the legs straightening if the twist came more from the forearm. But honestly I’m not trying to make myself out to be an expert, just a life long horse lover.

[Demerara_Stables]

@JB

there’s a lot of growing left to do, which means a lot of widening to do which will start rotating the whole leg inward as the chest widens.

Thanks for confirming!

[Demerara_Stables]

@Lusoluv

high performance functionality doesn’t leave much room for error

Absolutely true. However, after having shopped for over 3 years, I learned that there were a lot of not perfect looking horses out there who had great brains, movement, and jumping technique that I think could have overcome some minor confirmation flaws, even competing at the upper levels. Obviously near impossible to tell at this age but I was personally willing to overlook some things for a really good brain and really good jumping instincts.