Young horse that toes out - opinions?

[RavtoadOH]

He’s still intact, mostly due to the height factor and gelding early can cause exactly what you mentioned. If I did up purchasing, I’d probably wait until at least 3 to geld in off chance that it would slow down growth height wise and help him fill out. I’m more of a fan of gelding late on horses anyways, unless behavioral issues get in the way.

His sire is 17.1 and the dam is a larger framed 16.3. Apparently the sire has been throwing larger foals out of smaller mares as well. She has a 2 year that is 16.2 out of a 15.2 mare

[EventerAJ]

I’m a breeder. I’ve gelded horses at 10 months up to 4yrs. To my knowledge there is no associated risk with castration prior to sexual maturity in horses. There is an assumed “height boost” to geld early, but is not really significant, most academics estimate about half an inch. There’s really no way to know, as horses don’t produce litters and there can be huge variation of height in full siblings regardless of gelding or not.

In some cases, gelding later might give more “filled out” stallion characteristics (neck, jaws) but some horses lose that after gelding anyway, even at 3-4yo. To me, I’d rather geld early than late to avoid any risk of unwanted stallion behaviors. It’s just so much easier, on them and us, when testosterone isn’t involved. And I’ve had some really nice, kind colts ( including a very polite will mannered breeding stallion).

[CBoylen]

It’s always been acknowledged that gelding brings a bit of a height boost. It’s why people will wait on ponies that might be close to the line.

@kaya842

Not to derail, but can I ask why? There is a yearling ish (I’m told yearling but not sure where in its yearling year it is late vs early) gelding at my barn that is roughly the same size and is intended for jumping. I’ve not heard concern over height as a yearling before.

Well, it’s likely to end up over 18h, and there aren’t many successful ones that big. And big, fast growing young horses just have more problems in general even without that extreme.

[Bluey]

Studies by Tesio 100+ years ago indicated gelding before puberty and knees closing added an average of 1/2" to height.
That was confirmed later and it seems the long bones keep growing that extra six months before joints that at that age at puberty start to close are slower to close when gelded.
Because of that extra length some thought geldings were thinner and lankier, which it was not.
The secondary sexual characteristics puberty starts in males at that time.
That makes them look thicker and are not as salient in gelded ones.

[findeight]

Do you have any other pictures or video you can share? Not enough here for me to form a helpful opinion on an 18 month old.

[Bluey]

@findeight

Do you have any other pictures or video you can share? Not enough here for me to form a helpful opinion on an 18 month old.

Yes, I thought we were looking at a two year old coming three.

[RavtoadOH]

You make an excellent point here on very big horses not being as successful. The majority I’ve seen don’t have major soundness issues, but they’re just not as successful due to issues with striding, less adjustability, generally less than ideal form over fences, and laziness. You also have the rarer opposite end of the spectrum having a hot 18hh being a bit of a beast to keep together.

I’ve also seen deliberate height downplays on stallions that were actually larger than listed as not to scare off potential breeders. I know of one that was a solid 17.3 and very lazy over fences, but moved beautifully and correct conformationally. He was always listed as 17.1 in stud books and advertising for that very reason. Didn’t tend to throw huge foals like himself, so that was another selling point.

[Bluey]

A joke, a BN trainer. used to say, “very large horses seem lazy because it takes them longer than it does smaller horses to get messages from their brain to their legs”.

[RavtoadOH]

I’ve heard that and used it before

[JB]

@clipper

we are learning with canine studies that certain dog breeds the males that are neutered early grow taller with less dense bones. I wonder if that factor also plays into horse heights.

Height yes, but such a small amount as to not be a factor, unless maybe you’re walking the line between a top of the line large pony, and a small hony

There are just too many taller stallions, and shorter geldings, than parents’ heights should have thrown. And given that most male horses in the US at least are geldings, there’d be some indication of bone density issues by now

Giant horses don’t tend to stay as sound, for as long, as smaller counterparts, all else equal. They didn’t evolve to be that big so don’t have the underlying structures for it. Of course there are exceptions - look at Big Ben for example.

[Aussie_2020]

An old cowboy I trail rode with said toe-in was better than toe-out. I’ve only had two that toed in slightly and they stayed sound their whole lives. But it’s all just someones opinion.

[RavtoadOH]

This is very common with QH communities, many of them toe in. Not as applicable to HJ. Different forces places on the legs and hooves vs a western horse. Many years ago (I’m talking 30 plus) when I was around the QHs circuits, toeing in wasn’t really considered a fault unless it was severe

[JB]

Any leg deviation should be considered a fault. The question is then about the degree of deviation as to whether it’s cause for concern, as well as what’s above the leg. Something being common, doesn’t make it not a fault.

Toed-in is only better in that the leg movement tends to make the foot “paddle” (outward flight pattern) which means it’s not dinging the opposite leg. Toed-out generally makes the foot “wing” (inward flight pattern) which increases the chances of knocking the opposite leg.

But again - degree of deviation, width of chest, etc.

[RavtoadOH]

Yes, I understand that component. I’m speaking more on the poster’s response from an old cowboy. In the western world, toeing in with QHs is much more prevalent and generally accepted vs toeing out. Any leg deviation I consider a fault, period.

[Warmblood1]

So what are you going to do, OP? Are you going to buy him?

And I agree with you, United Touch S is a super horse. Have you also looked at his pedigree? It’s an interesting one.

[skydy]

Interesting is an understatement.

[RavtoadOH]

Still undecided, waiting for some updates from the breeder

The line breeding with United Touch definitely produced a talented horse, but I don’t know how it will play out long term for him with offspring. I’ve only seen his 2 year olds and below, it’s hard to see what he’s going to produce until they get under saddle and competing.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Tight linebreeding (border line inbreeding!?) will usually increase potency for better or for worse. You may be risking doubling up on the negatives, but if the cards sort out well you’ll also double up on the negatives.

Given his freakishly fantastic canter and lovely jump technique, I would expect that he will be a prepotent sire and sire some really nice babies. Time will tell, of course. But what is on the ground already appears to be doing well… and you have to love good Holsteiner blood!

[skydy]

Yes, any breeder had best use a mare that is a complete outcross to him.

I consider his pedigree inbreeding, not linebreeding (and yes, we’ve all heard the old saw about the difference) but most breeders know that there is a big difference, and that you are taking substantial risks when breeding horses that close up.

He is fascinating to watch in the jumper ring, but I wouldn’t try to reproduce that freak of nature.
Perhaps some very experienced breeder will give it a shot and succeed.

[Warmblood1]

I can assure you that there has been a lot of interest from breeders but his semen is only available via ICSI which will limit his foal crop. His fresh semen was offered briefly a few years ago but there were issues with semen quality there, too. He is producing some very nice offspring -

United Touch S / Offspring / Nakomelingen

A more flattering picture of his conformation: