Young horse wants to crib/won’t eat hay

[JB]

@Equkelly

I just personally think entertaining supplements is silly when we have research demonstrating that cribbing can be a result of a lack of turnout.

Cribbing really is stress-induced, as are pretty much all stereotypies, and then it really matters if the genetics are there to manifest as the behavior. That’s not disputed. But not enough turnout (remember, this guy is out 9 hours a day), is not he the only cause.

By dismissing the idea that stress can’t originate in a dietary deficiency (it absolutely can), only by lack of turnout in this situation, you’re doing the same thing as those you’re arguing aren’t taking management seriously.

@Equkelly

I personally don’t believe in stalling so I couldn’t tell you what normal stalls are for me because I’ve never used them.

So you have no idea how to manage a horse in any sort of stalled situation, but you’re ok telling someone they’re doing it wrong because you don’t do it that way?

Imagine how many horses have gotten in trouble because of illness or injury that required stall rest, but had a meltdown because their people didn’t believe in stalling and never taught them they can not just survive, but be content, for some period of time in one.

[Jealoushe]

@Equkelly

I also have a book somewhere about equine behavior from someone at UPenn that I can’t find right now but the author had pretty much the same thing to say about cribbing. I read that forever ago and maybe why that’s why I think this is common horse sense and not some radical idea that the cribbing is probably a management issue.

The cats already out of the bag though…management issue may have caused it but it doesn’t miraculously go away when the horse enters good management. Many vices are learned at a young age and are simply irreversible.

What we can do is try our best to keep them happy now.

[sascha]

Whether you believe in stabling horses or not on a personal level, it happens. It NEEDS to happen for some horses. My current horse is one of those. She came from a life out 24/7 and, putting it lightly, did not flourish. On a regular schedule of out during the day and in at night, she has flourished. The before and after pictures are shocking. The difference in personality (from nutjob fraidy cat to protector of her turnout group) is astounding.

Just because you are of the mind that what you believe in is best for all horses doesn’t make it so.

[joiedevie99]

@JB

ng really is stress-induced, as are pretty much all stereotypies, and then it really matters if the genetics are there to manifest as the behavior. That’s not disputed. But not enough turnout (remember, this guy is out 9 hours a day), is not he the only cause.

By dismissing the idea that stress can’t originate in a dietary deficiency (it absolutely can), only by lack of turnout in this situation, you’re doing the same thing as those you’re arguing aren’t taking management seriously.

YAY!!! Very interesting! Have you tried closing the door to the outside as well? We think it’s amazing to have space, but he might disagree. I have one who thinks he needs to monitor his space at all times, so he just walks in and out and in and out. If I close his outside door at night, fast asleep!

[Equkelly]

@sascha

Whether you believe in stabling horses or not on a personal level, it happens. It NEEDS to happen for some horses. My current horse is one of those. She came from a life out 24/7 and, putting it lightly, did not flourish. On a regular schedule of out during the day and in at night, she has flourished. The before and after pictures are shocking. The difference in personality (from nutjob fraidy cat to protector of her turnout group) is astounding.

Just because you are of the mind that what you believe in is best for all horses doesn’t make it so.

Right but just because it happens all the time doesn’t mean it’s ideal for the horse’s health. Just because something is common doesn’t make it right. If my mare got injured and needed stall rest, I would absolutely move her into a stall without thinking about it. But if someone has a horse that is showing signs of a mental health issue, why are people so reluctant to consider a change in management? You’d take a bowed tendon seriously, right? Why wouldn’t you take a 2 year old cribbing seriously too? Maybe it’s because a bowed tendon affects our ability to enjoy our horse and therefore our happiness whereas a cribbing horse might just be a sign that the horse is unhappy.

I also don’t believe that there are horses that “flourish” from JUST being in a stall. There are horses that flourish, from not having to compete for hay, from being sheltered from the weather, from getting a specific diet, and from not getting picked on in the pasture, but they don’t flourish from being stalled itself. You can however make it so that a horse doesn’t have to compete for hay, is sheltered from the weather, and gets their own specific diet all in turnout. That’s just massively inconvenient and time consuming so people don’t bother doing any of that. Instead they stall the horse where he’ll automatically get all those benefits and then go “oh look! See he loves his stall.”

[GPjumper]

I never said he was cribbing. I said he was making the motions of cribbing but was NOT sucking air yet. (Which is why I was looking for a solution before it turned to that) he would pace in circles or in and out of his back door. With the top door of his stall closed (the door to the aisle) he does not pace or weave or stall walk. He happily eats hay. My stalls don’t even have full walls between horses. There are wide spaced bars so they can still touch. Wider than normal spacing but not so wide they can get their heads through and eat each other’s food. Lately, he’s been hanging out on the side with the full wall (it’s an end stall) and the mirror. He munched ALL night.
I did close his access to the run last night as it was cold and he was fine. He didn’t even miss it.

As for every horse needing to be out 24:7, my mare would HATE you. If it’s windy or cold or the bugs are bad, she begs to come in early. How do I know? She will weave by the gate to come in when she is ready despite having a run in shed.

I also never mentioned supplements. I believed I asked if I was missing anything. The collective mind may come up with things that I haven’t thought of. That’s why forums exist. Outside the box (or stall as the case may be) thinking.

[Simkie]

It’s crazy that @Equkelly would just throw up her hands and sell this horse when the solution here is as simple as closing a door.

Really awesome that he’s happier @GPjumper. You seem to be super dedicated to figuring him out. I hope he turns out to be a great partner for you!

[Equkelly]

FWIW, I also have one that hates the cold and the cold and the bugs and I work my butt off blanketing/ unblanketing all winter (even though she has access to shelter). In the summer I constantly reapply fly spray and I put a fan in the run in shed. I also spend a bunch on fly traps during the really bad months.

A lot of people just assume the 24/7 life means no “pampering” and that is just not accurate at all. 24/7 turnout doesn’t mean you throw them in a field and let them fend for themselves. Pampering us easier in a stall but my mare lives outside and is verrrryyyy pampered. She gets grained, gets supplements, gets blanketed, has heated water, has 24/7 access to hay.

If I wasn’t willing to do any of that and just threw her in a field and walked away I would also incorrectly assume my horse “just hates turnout” when that’s not the case. Just a thought.

[Simkie]

@Equkelly

A lot of people just assume the 24/7 life means no “pampering” and that is just not accurate at all.

No, I think very few people here assume that.

[JB]

@Equkelly

Right but just because it happens all the time doesn’t mean it’s ideal for the horse’s health. Just because something is common doesn’t make it right. If my mare got injured and needed stall rest, I would absolutely move her into a stall without thinking about it.

Walking around a pasture with a fractured leg isn’t ideal for their health either.

How do you think your mare, or the average horse, who’s never been stalled, would acclimated to 24x7 stall rest that was necessary for her health?

@Equkelly

But if someone has a horse that is showing signs of a mental health issue, why are people so reluctant to consider a change in management?

I don’t see anyone reluctant to consider a change in management,. In fact. the OP changed management - closed the door and gave the horse freedom from worrying about what was going on in the world around him. She came here asking for suggestions that didn’t involve asking about supplements or drugs.

@Equkelly

You’d take a bowed tendon seriously, right? Why wouldn’t you take a 2 year old cribbing seriously too? Maybe it’s because a bowed tendon affects our ability to enjoy our horse and therefore our happiness whereas a cribbing horse might just be a sign that the horse is unhappy.

Well, she DID take it seriously because she came asking for suggestions

@Equkelly

I also don’t believe that there are horses that “flourish” from JUST being in a stall.

Thank goodness nobody suggested they do! I don’t believe it either. At best, I think horses manage full time stalling. They don’t thrive.

[GPjumper]

I’m failing to see where anyone mentioned full time stalling here…the only time he was ever stalled full time was when he was recovering from surgery. (Which makes perfect sense) I feel like some are just looking to be belligerent at this point.

[Simkie]

@GPjumper

I feel like some are just looking to be belligerent at this point

If you look at the post history, that’s kind of the MO of a certain someone :-/

[Equkelly]

Says the one who tried to shame me for my horse getting attacked by a dog all because I have the radical belief that a horse that’s showing signs of cribbing might be spending too much time stalled. I’m not the one being belligerent here. I shared a very unpopular opinion and the mob is big mad because progressive ideas about management are not welcome here.

[SporthorseFun]

GPjumper, I do think you are on to something with the door closed providing some security for this young horse. My young warm blood, with a good dose of TB in the bloodline, was really unsettled when I brought him to Florida from an old stone enclosed barn in NJ. Leaving the door open to a run out totally unnerved him for 6 months to a year. He got acclimated except for once in a long while in bad weather (storms), he will circle in his stall, and I will close up the back. Then he is fine. A TB some horses just are like that thing maybe? He is a good solid citizen, so I am certainly able to help him out. : )

[No1]

“Progressive” is not the word I would use. “Extremely basic” comes to mind. To the extent that you are totally unwilling to even consider thinking outside the box.

Everyone knows that wild horses live/lived outside 24/7. The fact of it is, most of today’s horses are the product of a hundred years of domestication and interaction with people, good and bad. That means that people have influenced hereditary and acquired traits in horses and all of that must be taken into consideration as well as about a dozen other things that immediately come to mind.

[sascha]

Just imagine how much happier and less stressed you’d both be if you could, I dunno, let’s say remove her from her uncomfortable environment for a few hours each day or night.

Fwiw, my current horse took a while to figure out that she suddenly had a safe place where she didn’t have to work keeping watch 24/7 and only had a day job. Once she did, she was so over 24/7 turnout. So over it.

She still works her day job but the minute the whistle blows at the end of the day she’s done, off duty, ready to come in first and to he’ll with her herd she’s spent the day watching over and making sure they all follow the rules.

Not ALL horses want to be out 24/7. Mine is maybe the most extreme case I’ve seen and one who has had experience both lifestyles, but I have known others.

[JB]

@Equkelly

Says the one who tried to shame me for my horse getting attacked by a dog

Oh come on, you were NOT shamed! Why would someone shame you for the actions of someone else’s animals? This is literally what Simkie said, and it was on the context of “it takes time to find a solution”

@Simkie

There’s a whole lot between the info posted and “sell this horse.” It takes time, and feedback, to make changes and hopefully find a way to make things work better. IIRC, you’ve faced something not dissimilar. It took you some time to find a new barn once you discovered dogs had regularly been attacking your horse, didn’t it?

@Equkelly

I shared a very unpopular opinion and the mob is big mad because progressive ideas about management are not welcome here.

Well, no. Your opinion was unpopular because you said “move or sell”. Period, end of story. No offering of trying to make the current situatio, one that you don’t agree with but that is the only option for a LOT of people, especially in Winter, and is NOT a horrible thing, work. No questions about possible alternatives, just lots of assumptions about the management. You DO realize that a “mare motel” is hardly locked in a stall for 15 hours, right?

I think everyone on this thread knows that 24x7 turnout is ideal. So no, nobody is unprogressive. I also think everyone this thread knows that’s not realistic in a lot of cases. If this were a weanling with only 9 hours turnout, I would be one of the first to urge the OP to try to find a situation, even if an hour away, to let him have a lot more turnout, and I doubt I’d be alone. But he’s almost 3.

[Abbie.S]

OP, glad you found a solution for your boy! I have a gelding who is similar in sometimes needing to just be cloistered off so he can relax in his space.

Re: the showdown this thread has become…I am the first to push as natural an approach to horse husbandry as possible. There haven’t been too many issues I’ve come across in my years of owning, training and teaching horses that more freedom, forage and friends hasn’t improved. But there has been a few, and those few required some creativity and willingness to try things, even extraordinarily unconventional things, until something stuck. That, if anything, has been the one constant in horsemanship IME: that our ability to solve our horse’s problems is largely limited by our own imaginations. Beyond that, I haven’t found anything that is truly consistent in every situation.

So I just strive to get as close as I can to full access to those three things based on the needs of the specific horse I am dealing with. Worked pretty well so far.

[GPjumper]

They’re mad because, without knowing the full situation, you immediately jumped on dumping a horse who had already been to a kill pen once instead of listening to his needs over your desired perfection.
There are those of us who are true horseman are willing to work with our horses. Considering this horse polished off 30lbs of hay between 5pm last night and 6am this morning, I’d say he’s going in the right direction. (And that’s on top of being in the pasture all day eating) If this keeps up, he’ll be able to eat less grain and I’ll be able to supplement with a ration balancer as I do my older guys. If him being in means I can drop his concentrate further, I’m all for it.

[Simkie]

@GPjumper

Considering this horse polished off 30lbs of hay between 5pm last night and 6am this morning

Man, that’s great news!! Fabulous!

And I can’t even count the number of times I’ve learned something new from this board and had to adjust my expectations with regard to a horse because it didn’t agree with me on what was “right.” Flexibility and willingness to learn new tricks and step out of our own comfort zones is such a key quality of good horsemanship. That’s the power of this board, I think–so much experience and people willing to share what worked for them. But ya gotta be able to listen, amirite

Anyway, I’m thrilled for you that this guy is doing so well on his hay and seems to have found his happy place with a pretty easy change