Hi all,
A year ago I pulled a yearling Tb out of the kill pen. This horse is an awful hay eater. He won’t eat hay unless it’s in a big hole net hanging outside his stall door. (We have half doors). He will also act like a cribber. Make the motions of cribbing on buckets/ the door/any wood but won’t suck in air. (Yet) all wood has been slathered with Sriracha but then he moved on to buckets. Any tips and advice?
Current diet/schedule
Turned out 7am to 430pm (winter schedule)
Eats: 3lbs of TC perform gold, 2 cups Purina outlast, plus smart combo ultra and Quitt. (It seemed to help with the wood chewing) barely eats 5lbs of hay when in the stall overnight. 1/2 a bale is offered. He will not eat hay off the floor or out of the bin.
Seen by vet, scoped clean, dentist did him in June and comes in December. Anything I’m missing?
I have a young horse that started picking at his hay. I was concerned w his stomach and all manner of things. When I had a different dentist check, he had been over ground on some molars so some of his hay hurt him to eat. I am religious about their teeth but seems a mistake was made despite being in a regular schedule.
My TB used to crib and weave. I treated him for ulcers and he stopped cribbing. It’s documented in vet articles as a sign of stomach pain or other pain often. As long as he gets outside pasture for all daylight hours he doesn’t weave at all. Since then, I’ve found pain and vitamin/mineral deficiencies seem to cause bad behavior. Pulled a draft mix out of killpen 1 year ago. He used to crib too. Started him on Kentucky Equine Research RiteTrac to buffer stomach and hindgut. I swear it’s stopped but he’s also turned out at all time except feeding and very bad storms.
Platunum Performance vitamins are simply AMAZING, and Kentucky Equine Research EO-3 Omega oil also makes a huge difference. Finally, many stressed horses are low in Vitamin B. It’s poorly absorbed through oral routes, so we give Vitamin B Compex IM Injections whenever there’s extra stress like bitter cold weather, or they don’t get out for pasture for a few days. Vitamin B deficiency often manifests as poor appetite. I do have some seniors on Equioxx but they still have some pain. Smart Paks Naked Leaf Pellets have made a dramatic difference. Two seniors the vet said to put down have been running and bucking since adding the EO-3 oil and Naked Leaf Pellets. They have also gotten Vitamin B shots every few weeks. I hope this helps.
That’s barely half what a 1000lb horse should get. How much does he weigh?
I’d start treating for ulcers, using Nexium, and see what happens.
“Hay net hanging outside the stall door” sounds pretty classic OTTB to me. That’s a very common set-up at racing stables. Even as a yearling, he could have been raised at a track.
Either way: sounds like he’s stressed in the stall and likely was not kept in a way that young horses ideally should be to foster normal growth and behavior.
When turned out, how does he eat his hay? Will he eat from the ground then? Does he graze comfortably? If the answer to these is “no”, then I would be suspicious of something physical cause (neck issue, perhaps). If the poor appetite only occurs in the stall, then it is a symptom of anxiety, not an issue in an of itself. Horses that have safety concerns will not eat or drink until those safety concerns have been taken care of. If he doesn’t feel at ease/safe in a stall, his need to eat will take a back seat.
If someone sent me this horse, he’d be out in a herd - or at least with friends - 24/7, in as normal horse-like conditions as possible, meaning maximize forage access, socialization and movement and minimize grain. I’d also probably treat him for ulcers despite the clean scope: scoping doesn’t give you a visual of the hindgut and for him to develop such habits so early in life to me suggests he’s harboring a great deal of internal stress.
Using nasty tasting substances or Quitt doesn’t address the fact that his cribbing is coming from stress: it’s equivalent to a person who fidgets or performs other nervous tics when they are experiencing anxiety. To eliminate this behavior he needs to be kept in a way that eliminates the stress or worked with over time to help him become more relaxed in a stable setting.
Yes - this, this and this.
Do you need both the Perform Gold and Outlast? I think they have similar buffering ingredients. Maybe he just needs more of the Perform, which should be closer to 6lbs unless he’s tiny.
Was he on a different schedule in the summer? Did he have those behaviors then too?
I had to train one of mine how not to eat out of a hay bag. He was very messy (loved to use hay as a bed), and so as a young horse, he had a hay net all the time that he was stalled…though at the age of yours, he was out in a herd year round. Anyway, it was very difficult to get him to eat off the ground. Finally did it when he was on stall rest when he went to a rehab facility with the staff to help get it done. He got one flake at a time until he ate it. Except overnight where they didn’t care if he wasted for a bit until he got better at it. But all day long, one flake, then one more, then one more, then one more. However long it took. He was huge and ate a lot of forage even on rest.
Outside, we fed in a big trough because he would make a nice nap pile of hay that would then get gross/muddy. But at least he could eat with his head down.
You might also consider something to try to curb those other obsessive type behaviors. When mine was on stall rest, we used Prozac. Not sure about using that in one so young. If it’s an option since you aren’t dealing with an injury, I’d put him outside before going there.
I think this is a management issue. He’s young, he shouldn’t be spending 15 hours a day in a stall. Supplements will not make up for poor management. I think this horse needs to be out in a field with buddies and 24 access to forage.
It’s one thing when you put an order horse in this type of situation, but IMO it’s just reckless to do this to a baby. He’s growing, he only has a few years to do that (mentally and physically) and I would not steal those years away from him by locking him up for over 60% of his life. Right now you’re setting him up for a lifetimes of vices and GI issues.
My honest opinion is that if you cannot make proper management a possibility at your facility, you should either move the horse or sell the horse. Every time I say that on here people bite my head off but it’s crazy to me that some people are willing to drop thousands of dollars every year on supplements, ulcer meds, vet bills etc, but won’t entertain a serious change in management.
I love how you think that’s a realistic option for a two year old TB who probably knows very little (as he should, given his age) who has all of these stall behaviors, and has already found himself in a dire place once in his short life. Selling a horse just means you can’t control ANY of it’s environment anymore, not that it’s miraculously going to wind up in the perfect spot. And there are a whole lot of areas in this country where what you consider the only way to house a youngster just doesn’t exist. So … your solution is to sell it? To WHOM?
There are a whole lot of roads to Rome. Yours isn’t the only one.
Lots of people buy unstarted/ unhandled 2 year olds. I’m one of them.
If OP were unable to feed the horse, or provide adequate training, or provide veterinary care, EVERYONE here would be singing the “sell the horse” song. But for some reason when it’s a management issue, nobody thinks that’s important enough to be that serious about.
Yup. I do too.
But I also know that:
Somebody that can meet the animal’s needs preferably. If OP can’t, and we don’t know that yet, what is the point of keeping a horse that you cannot take care of? You can throw a million different supplements at the horse and it won’t matter at all. Poor management is poor management. You think an unstarted 2 year old is a hard sell? A 7 year old cribber with a history of ulcers and colic is a WAY harder sell.
It absolutely blows my mind that this concept gets people so mad on here. Take care of your animal, or board the animal where they can be taken care of, or sell it. This should not be this controversial.
Your faith that there are people lining up out the door to care for young horses in the single way you deem fit is adorable, particularly in what might be an area where that kind of care does not exist.
There are so very many ways to do horses. SO many. Just because a horse isn’t being raised the One True Way According to Equkelly does not mean that it’s going to be ruined. Or should be sold to an Equkelly Approved ™ home.
Firstly there is no need to be condescending and mean. There’s just not. I gave my honest input for what I would do in this situation and there’s no reason for you to belittle me for that.
Anyway, you’re right there are tons of ways to take care of horses. But the way OP is managing THIS horse is clearly not working. If she cares about the animal, and not just her need to have the animal at this particular location, then she should seriously reconsider her management practices because they are not working. I have no reason to suspect OP doesn’t care about her animal, I’m assuming she wants to do right by him, so that’s why I would be very serious about management changes. That’s what I would do if it were my horse.
He eats 3lbs twice a day of the perform gold, I forgot to add that part. There is no hay in his pasture as it’s a pasture with plenty of grass (two horses on 7 acres). Living outside is not an option as the farm is not set up for it.
Overnight; he has entire bale in a net. I really don’t care if the net hangs outside his stall, it’s whatever way he eats the best. Ironically, he is most settled when the top door is closed and he can’t hang his head. When the door is closed, he eats hay and naps by either the mirror or his neighbor. (His turnout buddy) if the door is open, he won’t eat as much hay and he will pace more. (Maybe lessons learned from his track life?)
I should also add, my stalls are not typical stalls. The are 12x12 with a 12x12 attached run in. He access to go outside, just not in the big fields.
He IS NOT sellable. Between his vices and soundness issues he will end up back in the kill pen. He is nearly three years old. (Born Feb. 3rd 2018)
@GPjumper, ignore the idealists who think it’s all or nothing. I love how Equkelly makes all kinds of assumptions, never bothers to air them or ask what the actual situation is, and assumes “stalled” means shut in a 12x12 (or smaller) without anything to do or anyone to see. Not the first time that assumption has been made.
Your setup is FINE. 9 hours in a 7 acre pasture and 15 hours in a mare motel is FINE. No it’s not ideal, but it’s a far cry better than many horses get.
I’m glad to hear it’s 6lb of the TC Perform Gold - much better! I still think I’d treat for ulcers, at least start down the Nexium path, and I would drop the Outlast while you’re doing that. Instead, can you get TC’s Stress Free? If so, add that
I’m sorry you felt like my response was condescending and mean. I literally repeated what you’ve been saying in these threads: that there is one way to house young horses, and that if they can’t be housed that way, they should be sold. If you think that is condescending and mean, perhaps rethink how you’re responding here.
There’s a whole lot between the info posted and “sell this horse.” It takes time, and feedback, to make changes and hopefully find a way to make things work better. IIRC, you’ve faced something not dissimilar. It took you some time to find a new barn once you discovered dogs had regularly been attacking your horse, didn’t it?
I knew a young mare at the track who was like this. She was a mess with the door open, but very chill with it closed. If he’s happier with it closed, is there any harm in just letting him have his space?
Or, if it’s the activity in the barn that he finds upsetting, can be moved to a quieter part of the barn?
There’s some intriguing study into selenium and cribbing. I’ll link it, but it might be interesting to pull a se/vit e and see where he is, especially if you’re in an area that tends to run low.
I only stuck with the outlast on the vet’s recommendation. When he came, he was terrified of a stall. Terrified of life actually. It took me two months to get him to not hide in the back corner of his pasture staring at the other horses. When he first came, he would try to climb over the panels making up the outside area and would weave horribly at the stall door. It’s this last little hump that I need help with. Switching from the senior gold to the perform gold has definitely made him more comfortable and settled in the stall as well. She suggested staying on it using the “if ain’t broke and you can afford it, don’t mess with it” logic.
Ohh I will have her pull bloodwork when she comes this week for chiro work! I’m just leaving the top door closed for now for him. His mostly unsettled when someone is in the barn and wants attention. He just kind of stares pathetically until you acknowledge and snuggle with him. Yes, he’s that spoiled already.
