Young mare humps back

[Lodestar]

Hi everyone!

I’m a bit stumped on a situation with a young mare I’ve been training. I backed her two years ago (at three) fairly uneventfully. She was always a bit headstrong and looky, but forward and willing once she gets the hang of things. I’ve never known her to be backward thinking or lazy. I had her schooling First Level, then she had a year off because I was in a car accident. In the past year her work has been somewhat sporadic, but more consistent over the last two months. Lately, whenever I ride her, she keeps her back humped and her tail stiff for at least three minutes in the beginning of the school.

Here’s what I’ve ruled out:

Her back is not sore. I can palpate anywhere and she doesn’t bat an eye or move a muscle. I’ve changed her saddle to one that is not only a good fit, but has a wider channel, broader panels, and a lighter frame. She doesn’t mind having the saddle moved around on her back. She doesn’t mind being mounted or sat on until she is asked to move. When she first started this behaviour last month, she was not only humping her back, but also refusing to move forward. Now the forward has been corrected - she will move promptly off into a walk or trot - but she holds her back like a rodeo bronc. I had a friend watch her go, and she said she looked like one of those Halloween cats!

Now, here’s another thing. The whole time she’s trotting around with her back arched as high as it could possibly be, she’s relaxed. She doesn’t have any desire to take off bucking. Her ears are floppy, never pinned. Her breathing is regular. It takes her up to three minutes, but she will eventually relax her back and move out. I am not causing her tension - I just post and give her her head as much as I’m comfortable doing, and wait it out.

She’s definitely prone to back humping and crow hopping - that was always her MO as a baby - but I lunge her every day to let her move out first. She looks fine on the lunge.

She’s also on 24 hour turnout. No grain. No shoes. However… she’s one of those young mares that really lets it be known when she’s in heat. Even as a three year old, sometimes she looked like she was positively cramped up just lunging when she was cycling.

Any thoughts? Also, I’m aware that my own balance could be an issue, but although I’m rusty, I was an FEI level dressage rider and I have over a decade of baby backing experience. I don’t feel that I’m throwing her off, but am continuing to work on my fitness and regaining time in the saddle!

Thanks!

[sortofbyx]

You’ve said she is uncomfortable when in season, but this behavior continues no matter where she is in her cycle? I would consider an ultrasound just to rule out a mass or abnormality that would cause discomfort.

[alicen]

Is her behavior the same if you longe her with or without the saddle on ?

[Ambitious_Kate]

Yes, I always look at a horse’s way of going on the longe line. If she, saddled up, relaxes and doesn’t hump on the longe, you have alot of information right there, regarding her doing it wiht you on her back.

While on the longe, you can really get a look at her steps and way of moving in both directions. Does she move forward freely? Does it take her some time to round up and find a rhythm? Does her stifle look loose? Does she reach under? Can she lower he head and stretch, or is she moving with her head up, inverted? This longe can tell you myriad things, so until you have spent quite some time not only longeing her, but teaching her how to move correctly on the longe, without someone on her back, its hard to say what you are experiencing on her back.

[Ambitious_Kate]

Also, what makes you think she’s humping her back? Could she be raising her back and working correctly? I have experienced a horse working through his back, adn I could really feel it and it felt funny!! I am not challenging your statements, I am asking you to think about what you are experiencing and describe it again, as something resistant and negative?

[Lodestar]

She has not been in heat for a couple of weeks, and the behaviour has continued. She moves the same on the lunge, with or without tack. She moves freely forward over her back, stretching downward, both on the lunge and under saddle once she’s worked out of the couple of minutes of back humping. Again, I don’t get on her without lunging her these days simply to rule out cold back. I am intimately familiar with the feeling of throughness and correctly working over the back, and what she does at the beginning of her school is most assuredly a locked, humped back. She has no reason to be holding tension there mentally speaking… I’m the only person who has ever been on her, and she has (touch wood!) never had a bad experience. As far as the physical goes, it simply baffles me that she doesn’t exhibit discomfort while she’s going around with her back humped and locked. She doesn’t pin her ears, doesn’t act resistant (other than being unwilling to really move out), doesn’t switch her tail.

She has also had a very slow, careful return back to work, so I can’t even blame overfacing her. I had thought about an abnormality in her reproductive system or some other thing going on internally, but as she doesn’t exhibit particular sensitivity (other than normal mareishness occasionally) around her girth, belly, back, or elsewhere, I hesitate to ask her owner to spend the money on an ultrasound. Always a tough call when it’s not your horse.

Thanks for the thoughts, guys - really struggling with this one!

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=sortofbyx;8953985]
You’ve said she is uncomfortable when in season, but this behavior continues no matter where she is in her cycle? I would consider an ultrasound just to rule out a mass or abnormality that would cause discomfort.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to second this. My old instructor saw a few mares that had cysts and she said they all had strange physical or behavioral issues.

[Ambitious_Kate]

It sounds like you’re doing everything right with her as far as her training and progress goes. I don’t have a thing to add so I will just say good luck. I agree from your observation that I wasn’t correct and you are experiencing something else with her. That she works out of it, is interesting. Question remains and why you started this thread, what does the back humping actually mean? I will watch the thread for more.

[csaper58]

Could it be that the back hump is just a residual of the earlier crow hopping, and that she is growing/maturing out of that behavior?

She sounds wonderful.

Why focus on those first 3 minutes? Are you maybe anticipating the crow hops she used to do, and riding defensively, and telegraphing your insecurity to her?

It would be perfectly normal to be protective of yourself at this point, recently coming back from an accident.

Why demand perfection. At this stage I would just ignore the hump, and praise all the things she does well, to keep her enjoying her rides.

[EventerAJ]

Following with interest, as I know a horse with a similar story. Young horse, backed at 3, now 4, always had a tendency to buck/crowhop. Gets better when in regular work, but rider got busy, time off, and the humpy back reappears when starting work. Lunging first definitely helps (a lap or two of controlled wannabe rodeo), but still sometimes tension when the rider gets on and takes the first few steps, and/or the first canter.

Difference with this horse, there is no floppy ears during the tight back…it’s quite clearly tension and prelude to a buck. And the bucking seems to scare her, so riding it out is difficult (better to get off and get lunging, for safety’s sake). Going forward helps, and most of all, regular work 5 days a week. Naturally forward-going horse, never lazy, quite supple laterally to the point of being wiggly. Kind of difficult saddle-fit with wide-barreled body, flat back, and narrow shoulders, makes the saddle want to scooch forward (particularly when crow-hopping) which only makes her more uncomfortable and more likely to buck. Tried a variety of saddles, they all seem to want to slide forward on top of the shoulders when she gets hoppy.

Hoping she’ll grow out of it when rider can keep her in a consistent training program. They do grow out of it eventually…right?

[hoopoe]

I would start with ovarian cysts and go from there

[cnm161]

I have a mare that’s exhibited this behavior for the 5 years she’s been under saddle (vets ok aside from a tendency for loose stifles, which is helped immensely by being in active work). The first five minutes, and definitely the first upward transition, are a bit touch-and-go. After that she warms up and we’re fine. Except for sometimes the flying changes, but in my experience that’s pretty normal for unconfirmed flying changes.

I had a breakthrough one day when I was having a hard time convincing myself to get on. After tightening the girth, I led her around the arena a couple times just getting my own head on straight, and lo and behold all the humpy/fisty-back/generally semi-threatening behavior was gone. A short handwalk with the girth tightened seems to be all it takes to turn a humpy horse into the well-trained horse I know she is.

It’s stupidly simple, but worked for me.

[netg]

I guess my first question is why are you even trotting in the first 3 minutes? This sounds like a horse very distinctly telling you she needs more time than that, even if she is longed first.

I would also investigate the heat issues. My mare has had some MAJOR pain related to her heat cycle, and she didn’t express is at pain at first, but I pushed to work with vets because I knew something was off. I’ve had mares who get hormonal about their heat cycles and that’s easy enough to train through, but she was just different.

In my mare’s case, she has one ovary located up against her pelvis and it was getting pinched by a ligament. They normally float, but her organs are all pushed backward a bit more than normal - the vet showed me where her colon is and explained how much she has to reach for most horses. There is nothing wrong with her, just essentially heat cycles caused what in essence is the same as a hernia. She was never NOT sore due to this, but 2 weeks from her last cycle as she was getting ready to develop another follicle she would start to really hurt again. We now use oxytocin to keep her from cycling for months at a time and can see how wonderful her pain-free personality is, and how much it was affected between cycles, too. And her last heat cycle she had a big follicle on the problem side and showed no signs of pain - so she has actually grown out of it to a large extent, we think. We still try to keep her out of heat to avoid the possibility of some cycles being painful, but it’s progress.

[Mondo]

I second the idea of ruling out ovarian cysts. However, I also think that what you are describing sounds like a “cold backed” horse. Look it up. It’s neurological. The horses with a cold back require more warm up time. They just do. They can have a whole slew of different reactions to it, including and especially this “humping” you describe. It is also telling that she does it with or without a rider and that she works out of if after a very few minutes. I had one that used to lie down in the cross ties as soon as you put the saddle on. It is assuredly a pain response. Google cold back in horses and talk to your vet about it. It’s not debilitating or a career ender. It’s just something you have to take care of and pay attention to when you work her. She needs MUCH MORE warm up. A pain in the butt to be sure, but worth it for both of you.

[Sandy_M]

If you rule out veterinary issues, it may just “be her.” My horse was a bit broncy as a young horse. I did lots of ground work before getting on, and always (and still) at least 10 minutes of walk before asking him to do anything. He’s 12 now, and although most of the time he just quietly walks out after mounting, sometimes (day off/excitement around the barn/cold and/or windy day/just in a mood), he gets “humpy backed” when I first mount. In these instances, he definitely shows tension. At present, I’m rehabbing him from an injury, so I can’t lunge him. I mostly walking him in circles, on the bit, and asking him to stretch (since that is a relaxed posture). Usually, it takes a few minutes (3 mins. isn’t much). Usually 3-5 minutes does the trick, but the other day it took more like 8-10. It’s just “him,” and it may be just “her.” But, of course, you do need to rule out physical issues first.