Young stallion suddenly turns violent towards mares. What is the deal?

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

[QUOTE=Marwencol;6395771]
I’m not sure what exactly you are insinuating with that comment, but why don’t you have some respect and read my posts in their entirety before you judge me. What part of “He has an appointment to be gelded on Monday.” Do you not understand? What part of “He has been bred to mares in the past with no issues.” do you not understand?

For one thing, I stated that he teased as normal for the first two days. On the third day when I attempted teasing (NOT covering, ONLY TEASING) he acted as if the mare wasn’t even there. He completely IGNORED her presence. This was completely different behavior from the first two days. The mare on the other hand was finally in full-blown heat. I’m sorry, but his sudden change in behavior towards her during teasing is STRANGE in itself and I have never heard of or seen a stallion behave this way. This is not the first stallion I have owned and it is not the first time I have used one stallion for both hand and pasture breeding.

This is the FIRST TIME he has showed even a hint of aggression towards ANY horse. That includes mares (in heat and out) geldings and foals. This is not a horse that has spent his life as a breeding machine. He is ridden often. He gets trailered to weekend trail rides. He has been on and off the farm for months at a time for training. He could always be ridden safely alone or alongside other horses and that includes mares.

This phenomena is BRAND NEW and as soon as there was a sign of danger I removed the stallion and did NOT attempt to cover that mare again. I’m not sure what you “think” I should have done instead.[/QUOTE]

WOW. OP, I think you are being quite unreasonable here - you keep asking why, seasoned breeders have expressed some very LOGICAL explanations, yet you persist in stating the same thing repetitively hoping for a new answer. Why?

We know (and applaud) you are having him gelded, but your questions have not altered, even in light of the expert opinions given. What do you hope someone says to make this make sense to you?

[Marwencol]

[QUOTE=Eye in the Sky;6396285]
WOW. OP, I think you are being quite unreasonable here - you keep asking why, seasoned breeders have expressed some very LOGICAL explanations, yet you persist in stating the same thing repetitively hoping for a new answer. Why?

We know (and applaud) you are having him gelded, but your questions have not altered, even in light of the expert opinions given. What do you hope someone says to make this make sense to you?[/QUOTE]

I have not asked the same questions repeatedly - I have simply added more details to the situation and clarified some items from the original post.

Most of the responses have been helpful and insightful but ise@ssl’s last comment was nothing other than insulting.

[ise]

To the OP - I own a stallion and he is at a Stallion Station - not out in a big field with mares. While I know there are individuals who advocate this “free living” situation - I won’t go there. I feel your decision to geld him is a good one.

If you feel my original post was insulting that’s your take on it. I just feel you are putting these mares coming in for breeding, yourself and your stallion at risk by having this method for breeding and keeping your stallion. I hope you had staff at your farm to assist you with this breeding of outside mares with live treaty. Someone has to be holding the mare and also someone has to be washing the stallion down after he’s dropped and before covering the mare.

Your posts indicate to me that you want someone to tell you what your stallion was “thinking” when his behavior changed. Not sure how anyone would know that.

[Marwencol]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6397055]
To the OP - I own a stallion and he is at a Stallion Station - not out in a big field with mares. While I know there are individuals who advocate this “free living” situation - I won’t go there. I feel your decision to geld him is a good one.

If you feel my original post was insulting that’s your take on it. I just feel you are putting these mares coming in for breeding, yourself and your stallion at risk by having this method for breeding and keeping your stallion. I hope you had staff at your farm to assist you with this breeding of outside mares with live treaty. Someone has to be holding the mare and also someone has to be washing the stallion down after he’s dropped and before covering the mare.

Your posts indicate to me that you want someone to tell you what your stallion was “thinking” when his behavior changed. Not sure how anyone would know that.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, that’s the problem. I forgot to have someone HOLD THE MARE. :rolleyes:

I am well aware of the risks involved with breeding live cover. The mare owners are ALSO aware of the risks. (Or do you also assume I lied to them about how the mare would be bred???) Breeding live cover is not something I take lightly, as you seem to be assuming. Handling horses in general is not something I take lightly. If you’re going to handle horses for any length of time it’s not a matter of IF you will get hurt, it’s a matter of WHEN and HOW BADLY.

My first stallion was both hand and pasture-bred quite successfully (with no injuries to me, the stallion or any of the bred mares) for nearly a decade. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but the majority of stallions bred today are still bred live cover. I suppose all these reckless stallion owners missed the CBS news report the Phnom Penh killing fields full of dead mares and stallion handlers.

Congratulations to you for paying a station to handle your stallion. If I had bred more than 1 outside mare a year (and more than 2-3 mares a year total) perhaps I would have considered that.

[EquusMagnificus]

Gee ise@ssl, get off your high horse.

The TB industry breeds thousands and thousands of mares each year via live cover. Let’s take a step back please.

[Dressagelvr]

One more time, so it doesn’t get lost among the ranting…

I hear all the time that horses in general are unpredictable. They are VERY predictable animals. People just don’t know how to read them.

[Marwencol]

I just wanted to post an update on this situation. The gelding procedure was pushed back a week due to the horrifically hot weather we’ve had here.

Upon performing the procedure, my vet discovered a tumor about the size of a grape on the right testicle.

The vet feels 99% certain this tumor caused the stallion’s sudden aggressive behavior. He says it was only a matter of time before the aggressiveness would have been directed at humans in addition to horses.

He also said that this type of thing is EXTREMELY rare. It’s especially rare in stallions like mine, that have had both testicles drop. It is slightly more common in stallions that have a retained testicle I guess.

Just thought I would post this in case someone else here goes through something similar.

My guy is doing great and is back to his normal self. I anticipate he will have a long and fulfilling life as a riding horse.

[EquusMagnificus]

GREAT news!

Also interesting that you found a physical reason.

[NoDQhere]

Thank you for sharing, because the reality is that it isn’t all “sweetness and butterflies” when it comes to stallions. Your story might be very helpful to someone else in a similar situation.

[mzm_farm]

As I was reading your post, I was thinking either frustration or so much testosterone or other hormones that he just got overwhelmed. Interesting to know there was a tumor involved.

As a side note - I used my stallion for live cover a number of times. When younger, he was turned out with mares and would ignore the mares first couple of days of less then stellar heat, then cover 1-3x when mare was in good strong heat. Although a gent most of the time, there was a mare he was consistently rougher with - no injuries aside from a mild bite mark, but rougher then others. Mare seemed ok with it, and he never behaved that way with others - before or after. He was considerably more aggressive with a mount mare in a clinic when he went for AI training - did not like the dummy mare, tried several times and when he was finally allowed to mount the real mare (still collected into an AV) he was rougher.

OP - perhaps your boy was frustrated by a couple of days of being next to this mare, and could not “keep it together” anymore at the time she was presented to him.

Glad all has worked out for the best though.

[Bravestrom]

I am relieved for you that the gelding is completed and that you received some explanation about his change in behaviour. I am sure he will enjoy his life.

[crosscreeksh]

OP - Glad you have an answer to the unexpected behavior. We, as TB breeders do not enjoy the luxury of have a stallion jump an inanimate, non-hostile dummy, squirt in a bag and deliver the juice to a secured mare. Unfortunately odd, unpredictable things do happen with live cover, live stallions and live mares. Those who have never done live cover need to show some respect. Glad no one got hurt when your stud had his melt down. Sorry you’ve lost your breeding stallion. Good Luck.

[Marwencol]

Thanks everyone, I had been planning on gelding him after this season anyway so gelding him a bit early wasn’t much of a dilemma. I feel even better knowing that it was done before the tumor could get any larger or his aggressiveness turned towards humans.

It’s the same principle that applies to sudden behavior changes under saddle. Always rule out a physical/pain issue first. Words to live by in the horse world!

[dbaygirl]

stallions

Wow, this has been so informative. Thanks OP for posting this. It brought up a lot of really good points. It’s a relief to know what the reason was for your guy’s behaviour. It’s so frustrating not knowing when you KNOW these creatures don’t lie…their behaviour tells you everything and yes, it IS a matter of being able to read and understand them. They are creatures of habit which makes them very predictable. Like you say, whether in breeding or riding, #1 step of resolving is to check out the physical/pain issues of the horse first. And this proves it. Glad that no one got hurt.

[sid]

Just saw this and yes. What Kathy said. Stallions thrive on consistency…especially when it comes to their breeding duties.

It seems that (predictably), you got what you deemed as unpredictable behavior because of the inconsistency in the breeding protocol/routine, IMO.

The stallions who are more “gelding- like” as you described this one, can be the hardest to read because they are not super demonstrative…until you get into a situation such as yours.

I’m sorry about this turn of events but it was good that you posted to get some insight

[NCRider]

Sid, did you not read where the OP posted that they found a tumor when they gelded him. I would guess that had more to do with his sudden behavioral change than any inconsistency with his schedule.

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=NCRider;6425844]
Sid, did you not read where the OP posted that they found a tumor when they gelded him. I would guess that had more to do with his sudden behavioral change than any inconsistency with his schedule.[/QUOTE]

Never say never, but it’s doubtful. FWIW, we’ve dealt with stallions that have had MASSIVE tumors develop on their testicles. Unlike with mares that develop say Granulosa Cell Tumors on their ovaries, tumors on testicles usually aren’t hormone causative. And, even if that were the case, the behavioral changes would typically gradual as the tumor grew, not sudden onset. So, again…pay attention to behaviors. Hope that helps.