Young stallion suddenly turns violent towards mares. What is the deal?

[Marwencol]

I apologize for the long post but I my head is spinning with regards to this situation. I have a five-year old stallion. He has been pasture breeding a very small number of mares (1 to 2 a year) since he was a three-year old.

Since he was a yearling he has been kept outside either in with or in an adjacent paddock from mares. He had proven himself gentle and respectful enough that he could even be out with mares that had foals at their side. He was never ever aggressive towards any of the mares he’d been pastured with. The mares were never vicious towards him but as you know, they ARE the bosses.

He has never been isolated from other horses and has always been easy to handle on the ground and under saddle. He can be ridden out alone or with other horses without even as much as a peep out of him. He has always been respectful at the end of the lead whether mares were around or not.

For about a month he was out with an old broodmare that was pregnant with his foal. I separated him from her after a few weeks because as she neared the end of her pregnancy she started constantly herding him around the paddock. She would not chase him, just slowly and constantly walk him around with her shoulder-to-shoulder… It was rather amusing to watch actually…

His paddock was in a location where he could still see the other mares on the farm. He never seemed nervous or upset about being in that paddock. Throughout his life he has been kept in different living arrangements on the farm.

Now for the crazy part. Three days ago a mare arrived to be bred live-cover. For two days she has been in obvious, heavy heat. I’ve made four separate attempts at having him cover her. Each time he will enter the paddock, she will posture for him - and then he IGNORES her. I mean just stands there without making a peep. If I lead him up to her he will arch his neck and sniff her flanks and then - he all out tries to ATTACK her. I mean he tries to tear her apart. As soon as I pull him away he quits and turns back into the nice respectful boy I remembered.

I thought perhaps he didn’t care for the mare’s color. So I put a sheet on her. No dice. I thought perhaps it was just a coincidence, or perhaps an issue with hand breeding since he had only been pasture bred in the past - but he did the SAME THING to a completely different mare on the property this morning. This mare he seemed very interested in at first, but then the same viciousness took over with her too. With this mare it was a pasture breeding situation. Luckily I was able to separate them before anyone got hurt.

WHAT IN THE WORLD would cause a stallion to snap like this? I have known stallions that were not interested in breeding. I have known stallions that get aggressive and will bite mares during breeding. I have never heard of or come across a situation like this before though. He wanted to KILL these mares.

I have an appointment to have this guy gelded on Monday. I will not have a vicious stallion on my farm - even if he is perfectly behaved around people. I had intended on gelding him after this season anyway. As such it is not worth my having him trained for AI. I still would like to know what could have caused this situation. Prior to my owning this fellow I owned another stallion for 12 years. That stallion lived in a very similar environment and observed very similar breeding practices. He NEVER turned the way that this other stallion has turned.

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

[Bravestrom]

imo - he has a herd - as a pasture breeder - this mare is not part of his herd and an interloper. That’s my take on it.

My stallion turned as a 3 1/2 yr old and was gelded promptly thereafter. He still can be a bit more agressive than average geldings but not like before. As a stallion he almost killed another gelding. That was it.

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=Marwencol;6393667]

I thought perhaps he didn’t care for the mare’s color. So I put a sheet on her. No dice. I thought perhaps it was just a coincidence, or perhaps an issue with hand breeding since he had only been pasture bred in the past - but he did the SAME THING to a completely different mare on the property this morning. This mare he seemed very interested in at first, but then the same viciousness took over with her too. With this mare it was a pasture breeding situation. Luckily I was able to separate them before anyone got hurt.

WHAT IN THE WORLD would cause a stallion to snap like this? I have known stallions that were not interested in breeding. I have known stallions that get aggressive and will bite mares during breeding. I have never heard of or come across a situation like this before though. He wanted to KILL these mares.

I have an appointment to have this guy gelded on Monday. I will not have a vicious stallion on my farm - even if he is perfectly behaved around people. I had intended on gelding him after this season anyway. As such it is not worth my having him trained for AI. I still would like to know what could have caused this situation. Prior to my owning this fellow I owned another stallion for 12 years. That stallion lived in a very similar environment and observed very similar breeding practices. He NEVER turned the way that this other stallion has turned.

Any insight is greatly appreciated![/QUOTE]

Listen to the stallion. He’s telling you something. And, you’re not consistent with what you are doing. You’re pasture breeding, you’re hand breeding, you’re removing him from his herd environment, you’re introducing new mare(s), etc. Stallions are creatures of habit. They don’t do change well. You’ve changed things. Freeze him and geld him if you wish to use the genetics. Or switch to AI. But, I don’t think it’s a question of the stallion turning vicious, but more likely the ever changing environment ;). I know you probably don’t see the minor changes as anything to be concerned about, but in a stallion’s world, those are world shaking changes. Interesting animals, stallions. Definitely not for the faint of heart! Good luck!

[fairtheewell]

It is no fun at all when that happens. Who knows the reason why…stallions are unpredictable. You won’t regret your decision I’m sure. Good luck.

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=fairtheewell;6393793]
Who knows the reason why…stallions are unpredictable. [/QUOTE]

No. Stallions are VERY predictable if you read the signs and “listen” to what they are saying. But you “do” have to be tuned in to it and often people with well behaved, quiet stallions are more relaxed around them and just don’t see the subtle signals.

[Marwencol]

Thanks for the insight everyone. I wanted to elaborate a bit on what took place with the first mare. The day she arrived I teased her and she was showing mild signs of heat. At that point, the stallion was VERY interested in her. So interested that after I took her away, he actually masturbated for the next ten minutes or so. Had she been in standing heat I have no doubt he would have bred her. He was in contact with her over the fence and acted COMPLETELY normal at that point. Normal stallion behavior and no signs of aggression whatsoever.

The mare was in a pen right next to his paddock so they could see and get used to each other. I did that mostly for her since she was a maiden mare.

I teased as normal for two days. On the third day she was in standing heat. THAT is when things changed and he decided to first completely ignore and then attack her. I guess that is why I am a bit shocked. He went from acting normal and trying his best to woo this mare to trying to kill her in only two days. Very very odd to say the least. The second mare never got to see any wooing - he went straight into attack mode with her.

[TKR]

I agree with Kathy – but I probably always do or will. She has amazing insight and experience. In my experience of owning stallions for 30+ years, I know they are really upset by changes in routine and appreciate having things done the same way. That’s why people who ride and breed often use a different halter for breeding or go through a different gate or something to tell the stallion what to expect and build that routine. You will even see them poop in the same places over and over. I was always careful to use the same routine for breeding and they each lived in their “own” paddock (individual, not together) most of their adult life - although Huntsman outlived 4 “wives”. I always tried to handle the stallions myself because they are just used to one person for the most part and their routine and methods. I guess it’s a territorial thing. Good luck – glad no one got hurt!
PennyG

[rodawn]

I also agree with Kathy.

Stallions are very strong creatures of habit. They don’t like their world turned upside down and inside out.

He’s telling you he’s not real happy suddenly being in a pen when he was used to being in a pasture to exercise and move around at free will and have plenty of nose to nose contact with other horses. They are his companions, his buddies, his friends. Now they’re somewhere else and he’s stuck in this pen, and puzzled, perhaps frustrated. Make sure he has companions really close to him, and that his pen is the center of all goings on. Give him some more time to adjust to his new surroundings and lifestyle before you start hand breeding him - remember you are also a new presence to his sexual encounters. Also, make sure his pen is large enough he can get exercise, or be sure you are riding him. Stallions. MUST. Have. Exercise.

[CO1]

We had two different clients that pasture bred their stallions. They turned them out with their own and all the client mares in a very large field. They both had mares come in later after the harem was established. They both had their stallions ravish and damn near kill the new mares. They were some of the most horrific wounds I have seen. They both learned that they could never introduce mares after the initial turn out.
After seeing both those instances you better believe I would never pasture breed my stallions or my mares.

[Marwencol]

Thanks again for the comments everyone.

I think it bears repeating - for the first two days that the first mare was here the stallion acted very receptive and completely normal towards her. In fact, if she had been in standing heat on one of those days - I am 99.9% certain he would have bred her. There was no sign of aggression at all on those two days. Even with her exhibiting mild signs of heat - he was dropped and ready to go after teasing her. He was his normal flirtatious self. They were allowed to touch each other over the fence and aside from the normal intermittent squeal there were no attempted kicks or bites or anything of the like.

On the third day, after she moved into being in full-blown heat, things changed. He was not interested in teasing her anymore. When I led him over to her, she postured and made it evident that she was ready to be bred. But he acted like she literally did not exist. I led him over to her, he sniffed her flanks a few times and then he tried to attack her. This was a complete 180 from his behavior the first two days.

I too thought perhaps it was an issue with hand breeding, but I have never given him a reason to be afraid to breed in my presence. I have never reprimanded him for being vocal or dropping in front of me. He has never been the kind of horse that needed reminded when it is time to work. I personally don’t think I have ever known a stallion whose urge to breed could be so easily overridden. I’m not saying they don’t exist, it’s just that I have never seen or heard of one. Most stallions I know, when presented with a mare in full-blown heat, would breed through a barbed-wire fence with a crowd of 100 people watching and not think twice about it.

Also, he has never lived out with the mares year round. It is too difficult for him to maintain a good condition if he is out with them for too long. He is usually turned out with the mares ONLY while one of the mares is in heat. Sometimes he shares a paddock for a short period with my eldest broodmare. She is somewhat of a tyrant though. He never gives any indication that he is upset when I move him away from her. The rest of the time he is in his own paddock, adjacent to where the mares are. (His fence line is about 15 feet from theirs.) They are never too far from him and NEVER out of his site. He has never acted stressed by this arrangement. No pacing, no incessant whinnying - nothing. I have followed the same management routine this year that I’ve followed for the last two years. The same routine I followed with a different stallion for 12 years without any issues.

[stolensilver]

No expert here but I wonder if he was upset about not being allowed to breed the mare the first two times he teased her and was ready and willing to cover her? From his experience of pasture breeding he would have covered her if left to his own devices.

So when he was brought out to see the same mare for a third time he was angry about not being able to cover her previously and so attacked her for her lack of compliance? I know stallions do sometimes attack mares who won’t stand to be covered so it’s not impossible this was what happened.

Whatever it was you sound like you are making the right decision. Live cover is dangerous for people and for horses and for whatever reason your stallion has just become dangerous. better to geld him than to get badly injured.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6393776]
Listen to the stallion. He’s telling you something. And, you’re not consistent with what you are doing. You’re pasture breeding, you’re hand breeding, you’re removing him from his herd environment, you’re introducing new mare(s), etc. Stallions are creatures of habit. They don’t do change well. You’ve changed things. Freeze him and geld him if you wish to use the genetics. Or switch to AI. But, I don’t think it’s a question of the stallion turning vicious, but more likely the ever changing environment ;). I know you probably don’t see the minor changes as anything to be concerned about, but in a stallion’s world, those are world shaking changes. Interesting animals, stallions. Definitely not for the faint of heart! Good luck![/QUOTE]

I live in an area with Qh’s and many people pasture breed, they haul in horses and dump them off to be bred (I don’t). So just wondering how so many people get away with it?
And traditionally in a rural community people keep studs and others would bring their mare over, yada yada. There was probably some incidents but overall it worked out. I thought maybe it was a case of if the stallion behaved he got to stay a stallion, performance and such was not the main issue with “local” horses…?

[ise]

OP - why do you keep repeating that “he was fine with them when they were being teased”. That doesn’t matter if he’s trying to kill them when you go to breed them. I can’t imagine that those mare owners aren’t at your farm to pick up their mares before they are seriously injured.

[Equine_Reproduction]

@stoicfish;6394401

I live in an area with Qh’s and many people pasture breed, they haul in horses and dump them off to be bred (I don’t). So just wondering how so many people get away with it?

We live in the heart of QH country, as well. What we find here is that those that have the high dollar stallions absolutely do not pasture breed or live cover. Many that do the mass production breeding which has resulted in the over abundance of less than “stellar” horses do exactly what you say…horses get hauled in and mares just get thrown out with the masses. BUT, and here is part of the critical aspect of it all, there is very little human manipulation involved beyond throwing a new mare out there. The stallion stays with the herd, is not truly “managed”, and typically the mare stays out for a couple weeks with the herd. As noted, it’s the “tweaking” of things and moving horses and hand breeding vs pasture breeding, etc. Additionally, when a mare is thrown out in a pasture setting, if the stallion doesn’t like her, she’s essentially driven from the herd. He doesn’t cover her. Often there is a reason for his aversion. We, in our infinite human “wisdom”, will do everything in our power to get a stallion to cover a mare that we want bred by him, from trying to “trick” him by using a different tease mare, to covering her with a blanket, etc. The boys do have preferences, but often times, there’s some thing more basic going on with the mare that causes the aversion.

And traditionally in a rural community people keep studs and others would bring their mare over, yada yada. There was probably some incidents but overall it worked out. I thought maybe it was a case of if the stallion behaved he got to stay a stallion, performance and such was not the main issue with “local” horses…?

Who’s to say. We can make blanket statements and assessments, but without knowing the individual situations, it is only speculation. We’ve certainly heard more than a handful of horror stories that have resulted in less than wonderful outcomes. Sometimes allowing things to occur naturally “is” best, but that means allowing it to be that way ALL the way through - including the basic management, herd dynamics, etc. But, somewhere along the line, we do tend to impose artificial boundaries that upset the apple cart.

ALL the stallions on our property are kept in individual paddocks in a group. Where most of them live, there are no mares in close proximity. There are some stallions - usually the younger ones - that have issues and attempt to do more chest thumping and strutting and shouting than others but you can sure tell all the old dudes from the young ones…they just don’t waste their time with the nonesense ;). We’ve attempted to create somewhat of a bachelor herd environment so that there is no mares to compete amongst themselves. We move stallions around in an attempt to place them adjacent to another stallion that they “get along” with. But probably the biggest thing we notice with new stallions that come in is whether or not they have been allowed to live like horses. Those boys tend to pace, charge at other stallions, and are just in a much more agitated state until they realize that there really isn’t anything going on worth the energy <lol>.

We absolutely do not take in stallions that will be kept stall bound. The only time we are really handling them is in a breeding situation, so imagine a stallion that is in a stall 23 hours a day and only gets handled for breeding! Here, they live out in paddocks with run in sheds and next to other boys. And you will see them mirroring behaviors with other stallions - cantering the fence with a partner spinning and posturing at each other, but not typically in an aggressive manner.

OP, no one is criticizing or judging how you’ve managed the horse. I have no doubt that the behavior was totally unexpected, etc. It happens! Just trying to offer some insight into “why”. We get the ones that don’t make sense here. From the ones that will take you body surfing (NOT an Olympic sport, btw) to the breeding mount, to those that if given the opportunity, will rip the snot out of the breeding mount (have to wonder what mare REALLY made them angry ), to the ones that will take HOURS to get an erection, to those that if you take a step towards them to collect will FLY off the breeding mount (can guess what’s going on there, eh?!), etc. They are complex creatures and we often tend to try and anthropomorphize their behaviors. You can’t. They are first and foremost, horses - not people. Good luck!

[stoicfish]

Thanks Kathy for taking the time to answer.
I was just wondering.

[columbus]

We had 2 adult stallions who could go out with mares in pasture…one you could add mares to the herd and the other you could not. In our case it was the mares who drove the new mares out not the stallion. The reason you could add mares to the other stallion was the very low dominance level of the mares in that herd.

I think you were just lucky at first as he was young. Now you have to decide what will be the permanent situation for your colt. In with the herd or not, how you collect him, you may have set up the future with the choices you made at first. There may be fewer options now. Actually, I will learn from your experience and keep it on file. You have given yourself a new stallion and you need to relearn and reteach one method of management and then be consistant. We make stallions crazy by not being consistant.

With my new stallion we first had to learn his understanding of the world…we knew we could never match the pattern of his old farm and also knew that if we tried horses and people could be hurt. We knew he would be confused and frustrated and we took that opportunity to learn about how he handled confusion and frustration. His previous owners were adamant he never have a chain…he is 1700lbs…and he has no way of matching his current life with his previous life…he was very excited and knew how big he is… and yes we use a chain. Rope halters were entirely insufficient…and he was happier knowing we were in charge with the chain…he accepted the chain. We have experimented with how the chain needs to be attached, what route keeps him the calmest, which people he works best with, we still have issues with breeding and collection…he likes to double barrel kick out as he approaches the mares and any time he gets frustrated. It is so fast and hard we have to have a plan and…be consistent…with how we respond or prepare. We intend that he not do that but we need to know he may have done this for a long time and it is part of learning about the stallion and setting up his new rules at his new home.

It can take a couple years for a stallion to settle into his breeding routine…you might think because you raised him that he knows his place in your world but testosterone changes all that. It would almost be fairer if he was totally altered by testosterone…some stallions are…it will be harder if there are vestiges of his old young self intermixed with the stallion he becomes. You will be tempted to keep some of the old rules in place because he was such a good guy…but now he may need the support of a set of rules written for the stallion he is becoming. All in all it will be an interesting few years for you and him. PatO

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6394482]
OP - why do you keep repeating that “he was fine with them when they were being teased”. That doesn’t matter if he’s trying to kill them when you go to breed them. I can’t imagine that those mare owners aren’t at your farm to pick up their mares before they are seriously injured.[/QUOTE]

I think you need to re-read my posts. What part of “he has an appointment to be gelded on Monday” do you not understand?

This is the first time he has ever acted aggressively towards any horse - that includes mares (in heat or out of heat), geldings and foals. This is not a stallion that has spent his entire life as a breeding machine. He is used as a riding horse and has been accustomed to traveling away from the farm for a variety of reasons. Training, the occasional trail ride, vet work etc. He is often exposed to different horses (including mares) while under saddle. He has never given me any issues in this respect.

His suddenly turning on a mare is a completely NEW phenomena.

So before you judge me, be sure you actually READ my posts in their entirety and FULLY COMPREHEND what it is I have said.

[Marwencol]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6394482]
OP - why do you keep repeating that “he was fine with them when they were being teased”. That doesn’t matter if he’s trying to kill them when you go to breed them. I can’t imagine that those mare owners aren’t at your farm to pick up their mares before they are seriously injured.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure what exactly you are insinuating with that comment, but why don’t you have some respect and read my posts in their entirety before you judge me. What part of “He has an appointment to be gelded on Monday.” Do you not understand? What part of “He has been bred to mares in the past with no issues.” do you not understand?

For one thing, I stated that he teased as normal for the first two days. On the third day when I attempted teasing (NOT covering, ONLY TEASING) he acted as if the mare wasn’t even there. He completely IGNORED her presence. This was completely different behavior from the first two days. The mare on the other hand was finally in full-blown heat. I’m sorry, but his sudden change in behavior towards her during teasing is STRANGE in itself and I have never heard of or seen a stallion behave this way. This is not the first stallion I have owned and it is not the first time I have used one stallion for both hand and pasture breeding.

This is the FIRST TIME he has showed even a hint of aggression towards ANY horse. That includes mares (in heat and out) geldings and foals. This is not a horse that has spent his life as a breeding machine. He is ridden often. He gets trailered to weekend trail rides. He has been on and off the farm for months at a time for training. He could always be ridden safely alone or alongside other horses and that includes mares.

This phenomena is BRAND NEW and as soon as there was a sign of danger I removed the stallion and did NOT attempt to cover that mare again. I’m not sure what you “think” I should have done instead.

[Marwencol]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6394508]

OP, no one is criticizing or judging how you’ve managed the horse. I have no doubt that the behavior was totally unexpected, etc. It happens! Just trying to offer some insight into “why”. We get the ones that don’t make sense here. From the ones that will take you body surfing (NOT an Olympic sport, btw) to the breeding mount, to those that if given the opportunity, will rip the snot out of the breeding mount (have to wonder what mare REALLY made them angry ), to the ones that will take HOURS to get an erection, to those that if you take a step towards them to collect will FLY off the breeding mount (can guess what’s going on there, eh?!), etc. They are complex creatures and we often tend to try and anthropomorphize their behaviors. You can’t. They are first and foremost, horses - not people. Good luck![/QUOTE]

Thank you Kathy, I did not get that impression from you at all and I TRULY appreciate you taking the time to answer. I am not and never intended to be a “mass producer” of foals. This stallion is bred to a select few mares in the spring and then he is ridden the rest of the year. That made going through the expense of teaching him to be collected a pretty low priority.

The owner of this particular mare actually found ME. I do not even have this stallion advertised to the public. I already had the intention of gelding him after this season - not because of his behavior, but because my heart just isn’t into breeding any more. His foals have sold very well so I thought I would produce a couple more before he is cut. He is a great horse under saddle and I am perfectly happy keeping and riding him as a gelding. The SOLE PURPOSE of this post was to quell my own curiousity about the situation. The only difference between my initial plan and my current situation is he will be gelded sooner rather than later.

I think you touched on it in an earlier post about how stallions that are very well-behaved on the ground can sometimes be the hardest to read. That could certainly be the case with this boy. As soon as I led him about 10’ away from the “offending” mare he settled down immediately and was back to his easygoing self as if a switch had been flipped.

I guess perhaps I was just VERY VERY lucky with my first stallion. He didn’t care if he was pasture bred or hand bred. I could go back and forth between the two with ease and he never ever protested.

I wanted to add, it had crossed my mind that perhaps the mare carried some kind of infection - even though she is a maiden. Could something like that cause a stallion to react in such a way? I wondered if the second mare was just “collateral damage” as a result of the first mare still being on the farm, thus making him uneasy.

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6393816]
No. Stallions are VERY predictable if you read the signs and “listen” to what they are saying. But you “do” have to be tuned in to it and often people with well behaved, quiet stallions are more relaxed around them and just don’t see the subtle signals.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this comment. I hear all the time that horses in general are unpredictable. They are VERY predictable animals. People just don’t know how to read them.