This may seem like a silly question, but has anyone offered the solution of having the dangerous dog’s teeth pulled (maybe not all of them - leave a few molars?) in lieu of euthanasia? Dogs can live fine toothless.
I’m sorry your dog experienced that. It is terrifying and I wish it on no one.
Thank you for your thoughtful post. It is effectively how I think too, though it seems it isn’t the majority. I do believe it starts firmly with education of owners and also a firm approach on euthanizing dogs that show aggression. I know of several big breeds that have mauled people to death, not just PBs. Put a large dog in uneducated hands and in a poor living environment and the worst can and will happen. The solution would be to fix the lack of education and handling skills, somehow enforce appropriate care, and enforce destroying dangerous individual dogs.
PBs being a “breed” is just a scapegoat. Before it was Dobermans and GSDs. After “PBs” it will be something else. It’s very cyclical and anyone truly paying attention would notice that.
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So does the cycle and f which breed is “bad” reflect a rise in numbers and popularity?
I believe it directly relates to that - popularity directly affects the demand, and the rise in numbers correlates to the “rise” in PB-type events.
“PB breeds” are not new. They’ve been around for longer than most. However, we’ve only just recently (as in the last 20 years) had a problem with them.
So what changed? Did all bully breeds change so drastically in that short a time period that they became uncontrollable and aggressive? This theory is very unlikely. Anyone who has studied genetics would understand how difficult it would be for such a large and varied gene pool to become homogeneous that quickly - especially given the drastic variation within the types of bully breeds out there and the infrequency in which these bully breeds cross-breed with each other.
Or, did the breed(s) become so populate and commonplace, so generic in its “type” (ditch dogs look like PBs despite no PB ancestry), easily accessible, widely distributed, and cheap that it attracted all types of caretakers and the “rise” in fatalities was not a direct rise in aggression among individuals but rather a rise in population whilst the % of aggressive dogs remained the same? How about the rise in average # of household pets? 50 years ago there were nowhere near the same amount of dogs per household, and most dogs served utility and working purposes over companion homes.
I believe there are multiple factors at play: staggering population of “PB type” dogs (and the frequent misidentification of them) which makes these events seem more commonplace, and inappropriate dogs matched to inappropriate homes.
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I suspect it would be considered cruel- the dog fighters actually do pull teeth on “bait” dogs…And honestly, even if it has no teeth, I do not think a large, powerful dog with known aggression issues is safe to be around.
Overwhelmingly, people get seriously injured or killed by dogs that are a combination of these risk factors
- Large, high drive breeds
- adolescent- young adult
- unaltered
- male
- unsocialized/kept out doors/chained
- free roaming, either by escape or negligence.
- in a pack
(In fatal attacks on children, the child is normally not well know to the dog as well- either the dog is visiting or a recent addition, or the child visits the dog owner)
A couple days ago locally two minis and a full sized horse were killed by a pack of 3 free roaming pits. The owner shot one in the act, two are still at large. Horrific.
There are outliers, but we could prevent a lot of the fatalities with mandatory neutering and by outlawing tethering/penning dogs. The shelter my friend works at in San Francisco will PAY the owner 100.00 each to allow them to fix Pit Bulls and Chihuahuas- seems to be helping a lot.
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What you are defining as fear mongering is what I call stern wording in response to a very dangerous, fanatical, and completely unwarranted defense of a breed/type of dog that keeps killing people–and their pets, like that’s somehow no big deal; oh fighting dogs are not human aggressive, as if it’s all good because pits just kill other dogs and horses :eek:. Meanwhile, easily ID’ed pit bulls keep killing and eating people. Remember, pit bulls grabbed that little boy out of his mothers arms off the street and ate him in Detroit a couple years ago. It is ridiculous that I just typed that sentence.
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Sswor wrote “easily ID’ed pit bulls” yeah the experts do not agree
https://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/ineffective-policies/visual-breed-identification
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109002331500310X
CT your feelings and beliefs are well known on the bully breeds, does not mean your feelings and beliefs are correct. How can less than 50 deaths a year to DBRF and not all of those attributed to “pit bulls” be worthy of a world wide ban? Guns kill way more people than dogs do and yet no one is screaming for a world wide gun ban. That is why what those of you who are up in arms over the bullies are fear mongering.
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I have witnessed numerous attacks of dogs by pit bulls at the Wellington dog park. There are multiple incidents every winter season. I see those dogs dragging their owners around and the owners unable to control them on a leash. I see those horrible prong collars on the dogs and I ask myself, why would you want to cause pain to your dog in order to get his/her attention or be on your aids…
There are some sobering statistics on injuries (not fatalities) done by pit bulls: from Characteristics of 1616 Consecutive Dog Bite Injuries at a single institution (Clinical Pediatrics): pit bull breeds were more than 2.5 times as likely as other breeds to bite in multiple anatomical locations.
From the Annals of Surgery (april 2011): Mortality, Mauling and Maiming by Vicious Dogs, by Bini et al: “Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.”
Dogbite.org: “in the first eight months of 2011, nearly half of the persons killed by a pit bull was the dog’s owner and primary caretaker.”
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Kemosabe except that it has been shown you cannot identify with any degree of certainty that a mix breed or unregistered dog is a “pit bull” (which BTW includes “Pit bull is the common name for a type of dog. Formal breeds often considered in North America to be of the pit bull type include the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bully, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] The American Bulldog is also sometimes included.”) regardless of what you and other posters believe. As I linked above the study shows how difficult it is to determine DNA makeup of an unknown dog.
Dogsbite is not worth the key board it is typed on, highly prejudiced against the bullies. Check your sources.
http://legal.pblnn.com/pro-bsl-experts/dogbiteorg/94-dogbiteorg-an-objective-source
https://ethicsalarms.com/2015/10/20/unethical-website-of-the-month-dogsbite-org/
I’m not a fan of dog parks for any dogs because of the lack of rules and manners in the dogs present in them.
https://pawstotrainyourdog.com/phoenix-dog-training/dog_parks_socialization.asp
https://leerburg.com/pdf/dogparks.pdf
Always has. Right now the huskie is having terrible problems because the idiots that watch game of thrones want a dog like the one in the series. So they buy/adopt one without knowing or caring about the traits that make a husky a husky. AND they cant be bothered to train it. Superb escape artists, high prey drive, high exercise needs etc. and then these idiots confine the dog for hours a day while they work and wonder why the dog becomes aggressive and destructive. And the dog/breed takes the blame.
and we have been thru this in other threads, huskies kill more people in canada then any other breed but no one wants to ban them. Certaintly not the canadian govt.
and world wide the gsd kills more people than any other breed.
All of these has been in other threads. There are pit bull haters here and thats all they can see.
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Dog parks are another debate entirely. Personally, I think that the best dogs for dog parks are young dogs of sporting breeding or hounds. Terriers are not good dog park dogs - and that includes Airdales, Wheatons, and yes, Am Staffs and Pit Bull Terriers. Working breeds are not good dog park dogs.
I think prong collars are an entirely separate debate. I have seen dogs of many breeds.
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When I see prong collars in use it makes me think the user has the wrong dog. The dog pays, they always do.
compared to the total dog population, it’s a rarity for a dog to attack. It’s rare for a gun owner to commit mass murder, yet some think banning a dog breed and banning gun ownership will solve the problem.
It’s true that about half of the fatal attacks in Canada have been attributed to sled dog types. But if you think about it, Northern Canada essentially has the same problem with these dogs as the southern US has with Pit Bull types. There are huge problems with these dogs on the reserves and northern communities. They easily learn to hunt deer and moose in packs, not to mention livestock. The ones that aren’t feral are often kept outside with limited contact. The ones that are house pets often don’t get enough exercise and aggression can become an outlet. Unfortunately most of these fatal attacks are on children under the age of 12.
However, sled dogs have been a part of Canadian life, with a large population of dogs for centuries. Pit bull types account for the majority of the remaining attacks, numbers wise that shouldn’t be the case. Ontario doesn’t even have Pits anymore. But we have the same problem as the US, unqualified owners acquiring dogs with questionable breeding and history. Advocating so hard for these dogs that they won’t admit when their precious puppy shows aggression, and then they go and breed it, or deny it and take it to dog parks, let kids crawl all over it, etc.
I’d also like to point out to @khall that in Canada there are about 1-2 fatal dog attacks in Canada every year, and only 20-30 fatal shootings per year. Most of those deaths are attributed to gang violence and illegal weapons that were smuggled into Canada. So while Canadians might not be calling for a worldwide gun ban, I’m thankful that guns are restricted here, and that to legally own one you have to complete a course, pass a test, and have references. And you have to apply to renew said license.
I would have no issue with the government introducing further legislation as far as sterilization, how many dogs per household, dangerous dog laws, or even mandatory obedience classes.
Laval, Qc just introduced mandatory sterilization of all dogs and cats (unless you have a letter of exemption from a veterinarian) to deal with overpopulation and unqualified breeders.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/laval-animal-sterilization-cats-and-dogs-1.4458492
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I agree with everything above, except the police have noted the dogs were not bred for fighting. Nothing else has been made clear about how and where she got them. One group of friends say she raised one as a puppy, another says she rescued the second one from an abusive situation.
I knew someone who had chesapeakes as their dog of choice. Same mentality, since they had seen the aggressive side emerge.
And regards to kennels, correct and people who own various retrievers/hounds for hunt often keep can keep them in kennels and they work them as well. People who actually use the dogs for what they are bred for, are very aware of the natural instincts for which they need to be careful. The dogs are aware of who is in charge.
If there was any area where legislation may have an effect, it would be in Rescue. Individuals slipping dogs across state lines are one thing. Businesses doing it and getting their 501c3 is a whole other ball game.
The rescue in VA beach is being sued, as it should be, but it’s a whole lot of effort that could have been stopped if the dog in case, had been stopped at first signs.
All dogs are individuals of their BREEDING. Thinking differently is getting people killed.
The recent death by the Akita, in a rescue, as well. Akita’s are guard dogs, through and through. I have never had met someone who owned one or trained one, claim it as wonderful with strangers. Same as with Chows in the past. People may have loved them as dogs within their family, but they knew their reputation.
That is the major problem with pit bulls. The nanny dogs.
Specifc ads and images showing pitbulls everywhere via Huffpost, dodo, animal farm (aka pitbull lobby) advertising and calling them "pitbulls’ so everyone could recognize the block head, folded ears and muscular body.
I actually recall a social media ad promoting them like potato chips and if you have one, you have to have another. Fateful decision for this girl.
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Thanks for the info about the problems with the sled dogs. I had read some of it but didnt realize that these loose dogs form packs and hunt etc. Out of curiosity, what is the effect on wolf pop where these dogs run loose? Do they interbreed with the wolves?
i think your statement about unqualified owners is right on. So true though for so many breeds.
I used a prong collar on my last labrador. I tried a number of different types of collars first. He was so busy pulling on any other type that he would choke himself and then eventually throw up. We tried the head halter, hey I figured I could control a 1000 pound horse with one why not an 85 pound labrador? He paniced with that one, flung himself to the ground, and cut his face with his front dew claws when he tried to get it off. We worked with 2 dog trainers.
I used the rubber feet on the prong collar. When that collar came out he would run over and stick his neck in it. To him it meant a fun outing. He wasn’t choking himself anymore and would walk politely. He challenged that collar once or twice at the beginning and never again. It was safer for everyone since we no longer worried about him getting away from one of us. He was 85 pounds of muscle. He was strong.
Part of the problem with a collar like a martingale style or choke chain is that he had very heavy dewlaps under his neck and he had a huge head. To be able to get the collar over his head it was too big and the correction was late since it took too much time to take up the slack. If I used the clip type it was uncomfortable since it weirdly folded the dewlaps and it muted the correction too much. He also was willing to lean on them and choke himself.
From everything I have read a prong collar is less likely to damage a dogs trachea than a choke collar.
My current lab we took to different trainers. We use a harness on him since that training facility does not allow choke or prong collars. On the other hand he has still almost taken me off my feet a few times when something catches his attention. This dog went to puppy classes and 2 other more advanced classes. DH practiced quite a bit. He is fine in a controlled situation like dog training class or home. He is okay to walk around the neighborhood but if a deer were to bound out or a loose dog it will take everything we have to hold him. In all likelyhood the prong collar would be safer for everyone. In reality we don’t walk him much any more since we have a nice fenced area for the dogs and can wear him out chasing the ball rather than walk him.
Dog collars are like horse bits. A simple plain snaffle can be harsh in the wrong hands and a Myler combo bit that looks like a torture contraption can be fine in the right hands.
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My parents live in central/northern Ontario. They have wolves, but you don’t see them often. The population has been deemed as healthy. There is also a healthy deer population, but moose in on the decline due to ticks.
It seems that the wolves stay in the more rural areas. The packs of stray dogs reside on the reserve. They don’t have animal control there, no one bothers to get them sterilized. Some aren’t even strays, they wander and “hunt” all day, and then return home at night.
They’ve learned how to chase deer onto the ice and run them to exhaustion and kill them, the same way a pack of wolves would do. Most of these dogs are husky/malamute/shepherd looking. It’s possible they could mate with wolves or coyotes once in awhile. The problem with the feral dogs is that they are more comfortable around humans, they hang around populated areas.
I can’t speak for the far north. I would guess that there wouldn’t be that much interaction between them though. Wolves avoid humans. Feral dogs are more like coyotes in that they’re opportunistic feeders, and stay much closer to civilization.
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[QUOTE=SonnysMom;n9967075]
I used a prong collar on my last labrador. I tried a number of different types of collars first. He was so busy pulling on any other type that he would choke himself and then eventually throw up. We tried the head halter, hey I figured I could control a 1000 pound horse with one why not an 85 pound labrador? He paniced with that one, flung himself to the ground, and cut his face with his front dew claws when he tried to get it off. We worked with 2 dog trainers.
I used the rubber feet on the prong collar. When that collar came out he would run over and stick his neck in it. To him it meant a fun outing. He wasn’t choking himself anymore and would walk politely. He challenged that collar once or twice at the beginning and never again. It was safer for everyone since we no longer worried about him getting away from one of us. He was 85 pounds of muscle. He was strong.
Part of the problem with a collar like a martingale style or choke chain is that he had very heavy dewlaps under his neck and he had a huge head. To be able to get the collar over his head it was too big and the correction was late since it took too much time to take up the slack. If I used the clip type it was uncomfortable since it weirdly folded the dewlaps and it muted the correction too much. He also was willing to lean on them and choke himself.
From everything I have read a prong collar is less likely to damage a dogs trachea than a choke collar.
My current lab we took to different trainers. We use a harness on him since that training facility does not allow choke or prong collars. On the other hand he has still almost taken me off my feet a few times when something catches his attention. This dog went to puppy classes and 2 other more advanced classes. DH practiced quite a bit. He is fine in a controlled situation like dog training class or home. He is okay to walk around the neighborhood but if a deer were to bound out or a loose dog it will take everything we have to hold him. In all likelyhood the prong collar would be safer for everyone. In reality we don’t walk him much any more since we have a nice fenced area for the dogs and can wear him out chasing the ball rather than walk him.
Dog collars are like horse bits. A simple plain snaffle can be harsh in the wrong hands and a Myler combo bit that looks like a torture contraption can be fine in the right hands.
[/QUOTE
I hear you and still feel you have the wrong dogs. Labradors around here are the first choice for service dogs closely followed by Goldens.
and I had a Rhodesian Ridgeback, all muscle and fit. She was walked successfully with a halter that was introduced in the house just putting it on her without pressure. She didn’t pull on the leash and mostly she walked at my side on a loose leash. A cat decided to follow us home one day, Ridgeback wanted at it. The halter probably saved that cats life.
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Very very wrong about prong collars. As another poster said, a snaffle in the wrong hands can be a nasty bit. Ditto for prongs or electric collars. Nothing wrong with any of those collars as long as they are used correctly.
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