Young Woman Killed by Pit Bulls

[Sswor]

Funny. Every ACD cross I have owned has been a complete home body who does not run off, seems to have zero wanderlust, and sticks around the “farm” even when given the opportunity to roam–which is precisely why I have sought out the breed cross in puppies that I purchase (used to own a Husky cross–'nuf said, right?). Even at 25% breeding back to a cattle dog, this “homebody” trait holds true. At least so far in my experience–and this was based on recommendations from others familiar with the breed.

And every Arab cross I have ever met acts like an Arab. All of them.

AQHA stud book is still open. The infusion of TB blood, they say, “improves” the QH. They’ll only add TB blood, there must be a reason for that. The NSH is a thing, like a big thing; that’s a specific cross done for, they say, a specific reason.

There’s a reason people cross breed and it’s not because people like surprises.

[LauraKY]

Woman killed by Akita at pet boarding facility. She was a volunteer with the rescue.

http://www.fox5ny.com/news/woman-killed-after-being-attacked-by-dog-at-phoenix-pet-hotel

[roseymare]

@Sswor I am going to get flamed but I find it odd that people on a horse board. A HORSE BOARD have such disdain for intentionally crossbred dogs. You gave good examples in your post of why I find it odd.
​​​​​​

[roseymare]

And I have never met a Husky cross who wasn’t a runner/wanderer nor a heeler who didn’t hang out in the farm. Heelers in apartments nother story.

[halt]

This article leaves a lot wanting: it doesn’t say anything about corresponding blood on the dogs, verifying the wounds/punctures came from those specific dogs, and says nothing about proof, and also mentions nothing about an autopsy confirming the cause of death. Why did she lose consciousness? What precipitated the fight?

It’s pretty easy to verify if a dog was involved in a mauling: there’d be blood on the dogs and clothing/article fibers in the dog’s teeth. It’s also easy to match the width/bite span of the dog with what is on the body.

Pay attention to language - it’s one of the most important tools used by writers to misdirect or influence an audience. The article says “appears” about three or four times, and nothing about “proven”, “established”, “validated”, “confirmed”. It also says preliminary which is not factual or confirmed.

It is entirely possible the dogs mauled her to death… but the article doesn’t seem very well done or researched.

[skyon]

What article ??

[halt]

@CanadianTrotter

Pit bulls/crosses do not retreat or hold…they savage and kill if able or not stopped.

“pit bull/crosses do not retreat” - Really? That’s a pretty broad and all encompassing blanket to cast… especially when you throw crosses in the mix. I am not a Pitbull Lobbyist but even I find that a ridiculous statement. Every dog is an individual.

Just by chance, I have 2 PBs. One is a cross, one is purebred. Both were rescued as very young puppies so I know their entire history. They are not my first choice of dog, but they’re good dogs. Neither has any dog or people aggression. They’re 6 and 7 now, so are known quantities. The PB cross is very sweet, spazzy, and takes after his other half (spitz) more than anything else. The purebred is kind, quiet, and was “born broke” to the leash… she’s been a wonderful dog to own.

My purebred was mauled by a GSD almost two years ago and it was one of the worst dog attacks I have ever been present for. The GSD came out of nowhere and nothing precipitated the attack. My PB did not have a chance as the GSD was twice her size and had her pinned to the ground. My PB did not even fight back but was screaming the entire time, trying to run away with a GSD sunken into her haunches. We could not separate the two and the GSD would not let go, she kept shaking her head and trying to alligator roll with my dog’s entire hip in her mouth. The GSD’s owner was on top of her, had grabbed her by the hind legs and was pulling her, hitting her across the face, wrenching her, beating her and she still would not let go. This went on for more than a minute all while my dog was trying to run away. I tried everything- I tried picking up my dog, I tried whacking the GSD with her leash (I felt bad for hitting a dog but what could you do?). In the heat of the moment I did something very stupid, and grabbed the GSD’s mouth and literally pried her teeth out from inside my dog and wrestled her off of me. I know it was stupid, and I’m lucky the GSD didn’t turn on me, but in the heat of the moment is very different than witnessing this situation from the outside… I thought the GSD was going to kill my dog. The GSD left a 4" long puncture that was so big and wide it couldn’t be stitched. My poor dog was screaming for the next fifteen minutes. She still steps short on that leg. She is now terrified of big dogs and will run away from new dogs…

It still makes me angry to think about, to write about, so I’m sorry if my words seem heated. There isn’t anything like watching your little puppy get mauled and not being able to do anything to help her.

Despite what I would call the worst interaction I’ve had with a dog to date, I’m not going off telling everyone that GSDs are dangerous, maul without provocation, and do not retreat…

Every dog is an individual. There are dogs out there that will not back down, and there are dogs out there that will run away at the slightest sign of trouble. Both my PBs are the latter, they’re big pansies… I’m sure there are other PBs (and other dogs) out there that are very similar.

[Sswor]

Your dog walked away, @halt . If a bully/mastiff type had attacked your pit, and it did not fight back like you describe, your pit would very likely be dead. You might be dead too, considering how you responded (can’t blame you–I would do the same), or at least disfigured/lost use of hand(s). I’d venture to say that because the attacking dog was not a bully/mastiff breed dog, your dog walked away, and so did you. Perhaps that fact helps you not blame all GSDs.

[halt]

@Sswor

Your dog walked away, @halt . If a bully/mastiff type had attacked your pit, and it did not fight back like you describe, your pit would very likely be dead. You might be dead too, considering how you responded (can’t blame you–I would do the same), or at least disfigured/lost use of hand(s). I’d venture to say that because the attacking dog was not a bully/mastiff breed dog, your dog walked away, and so did you. Perhaps that fact helps you not blame all GSDs.

I find mastiffs nowhere near as reactive as GSDs, so I honestly doubt the situation would have escalated to that point anyway. I don’t know many mastiffs that come out of the blue and attack a dog.

It’s interesting how despite what happened to my bully breed, you shift the blame to another bully/mastiff scenario rather than acknowledge that bully breeds can be capable of not fighting/retaliating/killing/mauling.

That’s pretty much a first hand example of a bully breed not “savagely mauling” another dog when it had every right and reason to… and a first hand example of a bully breed trying to flee a violent situation… yet we’re talking about how if it was another dog the outcome would have been different.

My dog would have been dead if I/owner didn’t intervene. This wasn’t a few bites and a nip, it was a mauling. I don’t think I can put into words how intensely the GSD was trying to kill my dog. I guess it’s true I’m lucky the GSD did not turn on me, but it doesn’t change what the outcome would have been for my dog if I didn’t stop it. So the hypothesized scenario you describe is kind of moot.

I guess I get tired of the breed labels and stereotypes: All Ay-rabs are Krazy, all JRTs are hellions, all GSDs are neurotic, all PBs are savage maulers, all TBs are thin-boned… that type of assumption that a specific trait-set predisposes all individuals to specific characteristics is not that far removed from racism. Every animal is an individual, period.

[JanM]

Every animal is an individual, and aggressive dogs should be put down no matter what the breed. The GSD that attacked halt’s dog needs to be put down, or declared vicious and dangerous, have extreme restrictions, and insurance in place.

[Sswor]

@halt

I find mastiffs nowhere near as reactive as GSDs, so I honestly doubt the situation would have escalated to that point anyway. I don’t know many mastiffs that come out of the blue and attack a dog.

It’s interesting how despite what happened to my bully breed, you shift the blame to another bully/mastiff scenario rather than acknowledge that bully breeds can be capable of not fighting/retaliating/killing/mauling.

That’s pretty much a first hand example of a bully breed not “savagely mauling” another dog when it had every right and reason to… and a first hand example of a bully breed trying to flee a violent situation… yet we’re talking about how if it was another dog the outcome would have been different.

My dog would have been dead if I/owner didn’t intervene. This wasn’t a few bites and a nip, it was a mauling. I don’t think I can put into words how intensely the GSD was trying to kill my dog. I guess it’s true I’m lucky the GSD did not turn on me, but it doesn’t change what the outcome would have been for my dog if I didn’t stop it. So the hypothesized scenario you describe is kind of moot.

I guess I get tired of the breed labels and stereotypes: All Ay-rabs are Krazy, all JRTs are hellions, all GSDs are neurotic, all PBs are savage maulers, all TBs are thin-boned… that type of assumption that a specific trait-set predisposes all individuals to specific characteristics is not that far removed from racism. Every animal is an individual, period.

Except that hypothetical scenario isn’t hypothetical in real life. It happens all the time. Pit, pit crosses, pit/mastiff types maul and kill all the time. It’s a repeated, real life scenario that the young woman in the OP found out the hard way. The GSD didn’t kill your dog, it walked away. That’s not terribly unusual. I don’t know what your single, personal experience is supposed to prove to us. On one hand you say every dog is an individual, on the other you want your pit to be some sort of ambassador of the breed. Which is it?

[LauraKY]

@Sswor

Except that hypothetical scenario isn’t hypothetical in real life. It happens all the time. Pit, pit crosses, pit/mastiff types maul and kill all the time. It’s a repeated, real life scenario that the young woman in the OP found out the hard way. The GSD didn’t kill your dog, it walked away. That’s not terribly unusual. I don’t know what your single, personal experience is supposed to prove to us. On one hand you say every dog is an individual, on the other you want your pit to be some sort of ambassador of the breed. Which is it?

Many of them are misidentified as pits though…probably because of all the fear mongering. Why can’t we focus on dangerous/aggressive dogs, regardless of perceived breed?

Yes, certain breeds have certain characteristics, that’s why I prefer collies, cockers and corgis to most other breeds. But the fear mongering is really over the top. I can’t understand why either.

[Sswor]

Because pits keep killing, Laura. The dogs in the OP are very clearly pit bulls. Repeat repeat repeat.

[halt]

@Sswor

Except that hypothetical scenario isn’t hypothetical in real life. It happens all the time. Pit, pit crosses, pit/mastiff types maul and kill all the time. It’s a repeated, real life scenario that the young woman in the OP found out the hard way. The GSD didn’t kill your dog, it walked away. That’s not terribly unusual. I don’t know what your single, personal experience is supposed to prove to us. On one hand you say every dog is an individual, on the other you want your pit to be some sort of ambassador of the breed. Which is it?

I’m pointing out that it’s possible that dogs be individuals. Not hard to decipher and I shouldn’t have to spell that out to you… but I don’t think you want a rational conversation, I think you want to propagate a conversation that promotes your own personal agenda, which is obviously “Bully breeds are savage/bad/malevolent”.

People are mauled to death by just about every breed. GSD, Dane, Dalmation, Terrier… Focus on the individual dogs that are bad, the human individuals that are perpetrating these dogs, and you’ll see a solution. PTS the aggressive dogs, GSD or PB or Dane or whatever, educate people on what defines and constitutes as aggression, and you’ll see a decrease in fatal dog encounters.

Continue to ostracize and label all individuals of a specific breed, and you’ll continue to see progress frustrated because most people recognize it is more than the breed that defines the character of the dog… are all jewish people cheap and big nosed?

I am 100% a proponent of destroying dangerous dogs. Regardless of the breed. There are dangerous dogs of every breed out there that need to see the needle.

This unhappy situation had one good outcome: the dogs involved were destroyed. However, it speaks to a deeper problem, evidently these dogs were dangerous before their owner acquired them, and were adopted out with some sort of history. They also were kept in unfair conditions, which shows a basic lack of understanding WRT quality care and enrichment, especially for dogs with a more “troubled” past.

The other thing is the language used is honestly making me roll my eyes. I keep seeing people say things like “vicious” “savage” “brutal” “killing machines” - these are sensational phrases meant to elicit specific response in the audience. It is anthropomorphic and insinuates the dog had an agenda, a malign one. Dogs are not “savage”. To a dog, it is not “savage” or “violent” to kill something: it is natural. Dogs understand that their food comes from other animals. In order to eat, they need to kill. To protect themselves, they need to eliminate threats. No amount of domestication will ever erase this implicit part of a dog from it. So when someone uses “savage” “cruel” “vicious” to describe a dog attack, it shows a basic lack of understanding of canine (and predator) nature.

[khall]

Breed characteristics are generalities but not absolutes. As for the bullies bred for aggression, they are NOT bred for human aggression, some are bred to fight other dogs yet that still requires training and preparation not just breeding. Many many bullies are used for bait because of their temperament i.e. they won’t fight, like halt said they are pansies. Many more bullies are in this category than those that show out right dog aggression. Even fewer show human aggression and if they do (like the ones in this discussion) they should be euthanized. Breeds that are involved in DBRF change over time. GSD and Rottie and Great Dane have all been the “bad” breed at one time. It is about numbers and statistics, yet if you look at the numbers of DBRF the percentages show that “pit bulls” are not the most likely to cause fatalities, it is the Rottie. Example of an adult man killed by Rottweiler http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/tenn-man-mauled-death-dog-adopted-day-article-1.2438493 Halt I agree 100% with what you wrote, save your typing though the bully haters are incapable of seeing any reason when it comes to a dog with a block head. Because Laura of course they can look at the dog and tell 100% that they are “pit bulls” regardless of what the research shows.

[GoodTimes]

@halt

This unhappy situation had one good outcome: the dogs involved were destroyed. However, it speaks to a deeper problem, evidently these dogs were dangerous before their owner acquired them, and were adopted out with some sort of history. They also were kept in unfair conditions, which shows a basic lack of understanding WRT quality care and enrichment, especially for dogs with a more “troubled” past.

.

The police have reiterated that these dogs were not rescues. They had been owned by the girl since they were puppies.
I agree they were kept in unfair conditions. However, there are lots of dogs out there who live in kennels, only come out a couple times a week to hunt, etc. and they don’t savagely attack their owner. I’m going to use the word savage in this instance because that’s exactly what it was.

I’m an advocate that any dangerous dog be put down. We had a Chesapeake years ago who snapped at my sister when she tripped in her vicinity and drew blood, she had also begun to show some food aggression. She was immediately euthanized.
It’s a never ending circle though with the bully breeds. People advocate for them so hard that when their precious puppy shows issues they deny it. They make excuses for it. Then they breed the damn dog and pass on the trait. And yes I realize there are bad owners with every breed, aggressive dogs in every breed, but come on, you can’t deny that there are a disproportionate number of unqualified owners + bullies with issues = bites/maulings/fatalities.

For what it’s worth I would never own a bully breed, any sort of husky breed, and several other breeds (large and small) due to known unpredictable temperaments. Any dog I do get will be from a breeder who I trust and respect, with known lines.

[red_mares]

@halt

People are mauled to death by just about every breed. GSD, Dane, Dalmation, Terrier…

That’s not the case. People are NOT being mauled to death by just about every breed. People are bitten by just about every breed, but that is not the same as being mauled to death.

I challenge you to show me when the last time a Cocker Spaniel, a Pekinese, a Miniture Schnauzer, a poodle (any size), have mauled someone to death. That is only a fraction of breeds. I would love to see evidence that ‘just about every breed’ does what you say they do. I’ve spent a lot of time looking on Google, and I’ve never seen anything to that effect.

[Sunsets]

@halt

I tried everything- I tried picking up my dog, I tried whacking the GSD with her leash (I felt bad for hitting a dog but what could you do?). In the heat of the moment I did something very stupid, and grabbed the GSD’s mouth and literally pried her teeth out from inside my dog and wrestled her off of me. I know it was stupid, and I’m lucky the GSD didn’t turn on me, but in the heat of the moment is very different than witnessing this situation from the outside…

Ironically, I was in a similar situation. Except in my case it was an (assumed) pittie cross latched onto the neck of my screaming and, eventually gasping, GSD. And I did almost the same thing - I grabbed her by the scruff of her neck as she was readjusting her bite and pulled her back. Thankfully, my yelling in a Bad Dog voice and posturing at her got her to back down. That could have ended very badly, I am grateful it didn’t.

Oh, and while this was all going on there was also a 100 lb English Mastiff gnawing on my dog’s butt. She, at least, was only in it because her friend was, and she also backed away after the pittie backed off. It’s been 5 years, but my poor GSD still cowers behind me when we walk past that house.

[Casey09]

I try to avoid these discussions, and here I am wasting my own time and failing.
What is the solution here? Yank any dog that looks like a pit bull out of homes across the country and put them all down? What about dogs who look like pit bulls and are not? I think it can be hard to tell. DNA testing has a lot of accuracy issues. I think it would cause mass chaos to even contemplate something like that.
After that, where does it end? Should we ban all breeds if there has been a fatality caused by that breed? Take for example, Belgian Malinois, German Shepherds, and other working dogs. They can be reactive. They’ve caused fatalities. Should we euthanize all of them? Head to the breed specialty and pull up to the obedience ring and put them down?
Dogs absolutely have temperaments. We have bred dogs to be a certain way for many generations. Within breeds and even within litters, dogs can have vastly different temperaments. It is not all socialization and training, but that is a component too. I don’t know many working breeds that you can’t find a disclaimer somewhere that says that if kept in a kennel all of the time without human interactions, they could t become very aggressive.
We need to remember that #1 given the number of dogs in this country, these incidents are rare and hopefully we can prevent even more of them. If we are going to prevent these problems, we need to move away from threatening to take dogs who have never even been a problem and putting them down and move towards becoming a more educated society about dogs in general. Scaring people into thinking that we are coming for their dogs is unlikely to be an effective strategy. JMHO.

[Casey09]

@red mares

That’s not the case. People are NOT being mauled to death by just about every breed. People are bitten by just about every breed, but that is not the same as being mauled to death.

I challenge you to show me when the last time a Cocker Spaniel, a Pekinese, a Miniture Schnauzer, a poodle (any size), have mauled someone to death. That is only a fraction of breeds. I would love to see evidence that ‘just about every breed’ does what you say they do. I’ve spent a lot of time looking on Google, and I’ve never seen anything to that effect.

What about working breeds? German Shepherds, Malinois, even Rotties are traditionally a working breed. Pekingese are adorable, but a toy dog. Poodles are really lovely, but a hunting breed and very different from a terrier, a herding dog, or a serious working breed.
Of course these breeds are often owned by those participating in dog sports, etc. Would it be different if they were commonly tied outside in low income areas? I don’t know but I think it’s possible. In fact, I think it’s possible with many large, strong dogs.
ETA: I do know someone with a very reactive poodle.