Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Your best tactics for a horse that breaks away on the lunge

Eventing
#21

This lunge cavesson has a bicycle chain in nose band. It’s wonderful for a strong horse. It’s expensive but worth it. I have a 16.3H hanoverian mare that learned she could just turn away and run and I could not stop her. Put this on her and she hit the end ONCE and NEVER tried to pull away again.
Mary Flood also lunges all her horses in a lunge cavesson with a chain in it.
The crown piece and “throat latch” are so-so but the noseband itself is made beautifully.

http://www.oglesaddlery.com/Ogle_Saddlery/Training_Equipment.html

#22

This sounds like a serious injury waiting to happen. If you cannot control the horse with a chain over the nose at end of the line, IMO there is no point in working this horse on the lunge until you have a more suitable setting such as a round pen, or until he is farther along in his training. I would not personally continue to force this issue with the idea that I Must Prevail - each time he beats you the problem enlarges. I would personally just side-step it as unwinnable in the current setting and carry on with his training by other means. The issue will very likely vanish when he is farther along. If you feel that work on the lunge line is the only path forward in his training right now, I would recommend that you find a round pen in which to do it. Or continue to box him in with jumps and such if that approach has been successful for you.

#23

Best tactic? Don’t lunge him.

I have yet to see a class at a show that judges horses on lunging. Lunging is a schooling tool and one that appearently doesn’t work for this horse. While there are lots of good reasons to lunge, pleanty of horses learn what they need to learn without it.

Use the technique to train the horse. When the technique creates it own set of problems use a different technique.

#24

[QUOTE=visorvet;7654057]
This sounds like a serious injury waiting to happen. If you cannot control the horse with a chain over the nose at end of the line, IMO there is no point in working this horse on the lunge until you have a more suitable setting such as a round pen, or until he is farther along in his training. I would not personally continue to force this issue with the idea that I Must Prevail - each time he beats you the problem enlarges. I would personally just side-step it as unwinnable in the current setting and carry on with his training by other means. The issue will very likely vanish when he is farther along. If you feel that work on the lunge line is the only path forward in his training right now, I would recommend that you find a round pen in which to do it. Or continue to box him in with jumps and such if that approach has been successful for you.[/QUOTE]

The “just stop” approach is also a very valid one to consider.

Five year olds can be such jerks anyway…this one sounds like a particular ass.

Perhaps this is an issue best left alone until seven or eight. When hopefully he has grown up a bit and gotten his ass kicked a bit under saddle, and has stopped kicking out at people.

#25

I know that plenty of people disagree but I think that issues that go unaddressed on the ground will manifest under saddle. He doesn’t respect you and has gotten away with ripping the line out of your hand a number of times. Ultimately I think that comes down to not respecting your forward aid and it will reappear in a nastier form down the road. I hope not but personally I would want to fix the attitude problem now and not later.

I really agree with the person who said that it comes down to the angle of lunging.

The only way a horse can get away is by turning the shoulder away from you and running. The horse can either immediately do that, back and then spin, or yield out and spin, but ultimately the shoulder and head turn away from you and then it is all over

If you control his shoulder you control his body. A horse can rapidly yield sideways but there is no way that he can yield his whole body sideways fast enough and long enough to get away or back away fast enough. He may be able to do both quickly and for an extended period of time but if you just keep trotting after him he isn’t going to back himself for a mile.

I was taught to lunge with the whip behind the girth but for most people the whip inevitably is pointed more at the hip than an inch behind the girth. I understand that this works really well for people but if a horse decides to swing his butt out, the whip pointed at the hip then becomes an aid that drives his hind end away from you and you lose your angle of control.

Random youtube clip I pulled but is this what you are experiencing?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaVrRjjzbXc

You can see how the horse thankfully didn’t want to truly leave town because she had no leverage trying to pull a horse forward who was rapidly backing up. If she had instead hoofed it and gotten to a point where she was perpendicular to the shoulder she could keep pushing him out until she had yielding him to the point where she was back in control.

I am certainly not sitting here pretending that if I took over the lunge line I could presto magic fix your problem. However, I do think that controlling the shoulder is one of the most viable ways to address the issue. Increasing the leverage on his face is liable to make him fly backwards and then spin off or fly sideways and then spin off.

#26

re: foot rope

[QUOTE=Polydor;7653838]
Somewhat interested in this and I think I know where you are going with it. But few more details please.

And totally agree with what EVenterAJ suggests.

P.[/QUOTE]

I was just thinking that he needed to be brought back to some basics and she needs to control his feet and get him to respect that she can control his feet.

I tried to find a link to the scene in disk 1 of the 7 Clinics series where Brannaman talks about how some people use harsher and harsher devices attempting to effect a change in the horse. Couldn’t find it, so this link about groundwork philosophy will have to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksHSksrz9X4

I have always liked Buck’s attitude with things, and it seems that when something is going wrong, harsher gear isn’t always the answer. Sometimes you just go back to basics and make sure those are installed well.

eta: Found this later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp4aae5oonM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6J70lijTAk

Is that what you were thinking? :slight_smile:

#27

Yes that is a good example of what NOT to do. That horse was actually being pretty good. I would have been running toward his hip not standing there letting him go backwards. Same as when they turn their head to the outside and BOLT. You have to be angled right to pull their nose around and keep them coming forward. With horses like this…there is NO standing still. You have to be moving all the time to keep the angles so you are most effective…and you have to out think them. They will almost Always bolt or make their move in the same place…so you have to act before they do, doing a sharper half halt there and bringing their nose and shoulder around. In almosts all difficult to lunge horses…it is the handler not reacting fast enough or reading the situation IME. Yes, I will use a chain or a rope halter…but I’ve never needed more than that. And I’ve had a few who would do the kick and bolt move and a few do the running backwards and spin move.

#28

Agreed.

#29

I don’t disagree at all.

However, every single time she lets this horse go, it ingrains the habit deeper and deeper. The extensive list of things she has tried already suggests that this horse has gotten away quite a bit, and that future attempts are likely not going to be much more successful.

He has, in short, got her number on this issue.

So while yes, I 100% absolutely agree that this is going to start to surface under saddle…

…it may be easier for the OP to have a good set of spurs and a nice jumping bat and teach him forward under saddle, vs continuing to struggle with him getting away (with him WINNING) on the lunge line.

Sometimes you have to choose when and where to fight your battles. “Forward” can be taught in ways besides lunging, if lunging is only going to continue to reward this horse for bad behavior.

#30

I agree 100%. It’s not popular but I agree with the chain through the mouth. When it comes down to this big of a safety issue then sometimes desperate measures must be taken. This should ONLY be done in an arena (since OP has said numerous times she doesn’t have access to a round pen). Pretty sure if his hind legs came at me on a smaller circle I’d stop the lunging and have a serious CTJ experience with him. That is completely unacceptable. He has no respect for you on the lunge, even if his ground manners are “impeccable”. IMO a horse that does this on the lunge does not have great ground manners.

It sounds like you’re going to get a good workout one way or the other. Have running shoes on, you’ll need them. He starts pulling his BS you HAVE to get yourself in a better position and maintain the leverage over him.

#31

[QUOTE=subk;7654068]
Best tactic? Don’t lunge him.

I have yet to see a class at a show that judges horses on lunging. Lunging is a schooling tool and one that appearently doesn’t work for this horse. While there are lots of good reasons to lunge, pleanty of horses learn what they need to learn without it.

Use the technique to train the horse. When the technique creates it own set of problems use a different technique.[/QUOTE]

I concur with subk and ACMEventing on this one…

#32

I do have to say that while I suspect this horse is fixable with the right person…OP…it is not going to be easy and since he has your number, I agree that it is better to not lunge him. I’m not the worlds best at lunging…but I’m pretty good. I’ve had more than one horse who was a nightmare for their owner and fine for me. I’d help, show them what to do and the timing…but in the end, their horse knew the difference. Same for me, I’ve got a friend who is FAR FAR better than me…and when I’ve had trouble with a young horse…I quickly handed the horse over to them before I let the problem become ingrained or a bigger problem.

#33

I have not closely read every response, but for leverage I second the use of stout longing cavesson. The one linked too is very nice, but I personally prefer a second strap that goes under the chin, so three straps on the bottom of the face in total. Its too easy to twist with just two. When using the cavesson, clip your line to the center ring on the bridge of the nose. If you give a hard yank on that ring on a moving horse you can literally sit them down on their asses, the leverage is incredible. Be careful.

I watched a horse starting video recently where they were starting young stallions brought in from the field. For longing, they positioned the circle so there would be two walls for support, and on the other two exposed sections of the circle, they had helpers standing with long whips. If the horse decided to act up, the helpers sent the horse forward and kept him from escaping.

My own horse was a challenge to longe at one point and always tried repeatedly to escape. Like yours he was smart enough to behave in close, behave in a round pen, behave 99% of the time, but once I let him out to a larger circle it was “game on”. I solved his desire to want to take off to the next county using the center ring on a longe cavesson, but then he soon replaced the escape attempt with a Bronco Billy routine - only when just far enough away from me that he knew I couldn’t reach him with the whip to really send him forward, in close he was an angel. So I fixed that with introducing trot poles, and giving him a food reward for exercises well done. When he had that down I introduced small jumps on the longe, then more complex ones, like GM’s death spiral, etc. He became very interested in longing and looks forward to it now.

#34

Thanks everyone for the great thoughts and suggestions!! I’ll give you a bit of an update on where things got to today and then also the background on why it’s important that this horse be lunged. Sorry it’s a bit long!

Firstly, I would just say that this horse has had extensive groundwork done and he is great at it. I know that might seem hard to reconcile considering this lunging issue, but he is a very different horse to your average one and is extremely good at compartmentalizing each exercise and not letting the respect in the groundwork follow through to the lunging. :frowning: I have not lost him trying each and every method, it’s just that it’s clear that those methods haven’t solved the issue. Riding tricky horses is nothing new for me, but his horse is just different he turns all of the “traditional” stuff on it’s head. The behavioral trainer that I’ve worked with has an exceptionally good system that does produce follow through results for most other horses (it isn’t Brannaman but it is that sort of philosophy).

Anyway onto today’s experiment. So first I made him a nice pen in the arena and then took him out with a gag bit and a piece of rope connecting the two cheek pieces. I then attached my line to the connecting rope. I also put on his rope pressure halter and had another line on that. I didn’t go for a chain because I wanted something that would release the instant I took the pressure off of him. This makes a really clear distinction that good behavior is happy and bad behavior is uncomfortable. I had the rope halter on too because I wanted something I could keep hold of if he reacted badly to the gag and I had to take all pressure off of it. Inevitability he tried his pull away and discovered it was actually really uncomfortable. He tried it on a number of times with several pretty serious explosions and each time he found the pressure an the gag was not worth fighting against. I kept going until it was clear he was thinking of trying a “pull away” and had decided against it. The gag is definitely the way to go. I’m sure he will try it again but this is the most effective tool yet. I could leave him alone when he was being good while at the same time providing enough discomfort when he was being stupid.

This horse needs to be lunged because this behavior does follow though under saddle in the form of napping and the lunging exercises in the obedience program I use do keep him from behaving badly undersaddle. There is a follow through from the lunging to the ridden work because trying to break away on the lunge is almost the same behavior as the napping he does. Last fall it became clear that this horse needed a different approach to the “traditional” style and that’s when I enlisted this trainer to help me. His first session with my horse in December was fascinating - it was like watching an exorcism. So during the early part of the New Year I primarily worked on his ground work and lunging. It wasn’t easy but we was coming along really well. I didn’t have problems with him breaking away because I had access to a round pen and with a long enough lunge line there just wasn’t anywhere for him to go, so he’d try to pull away and even if he could change direction, I still had him so I could turn him back round and keep him going. He stopped trying it very quickly because he wasn’t successful. And once I started doing more ridden work there was no napping at all. The problem has come back because I had to move barns (the old one put up the prices by a whopping 40%!!). I no longer have access to a round pen and the move made him go straight back to ground zero and brought out the napping undersaddle too. So I got the trainer back out again and he did some new exercises that got rid of the really bad behavior but it hadn’t banished it all. But I’m pretty confident that the lunging and long lining exercises will help get rid of the last remaining uncooperative crap.

He is ridden strongly forward. I ride with 2 dressage whips and draw reins attached to the side (not through the legs). The draw reins are not to create flexion but to make it uncomfortable to him to throw his head up which is a favorite evasion for making him go forward.

I’ve probably made him sound like a terrible horrible horse :slight_smile: and he actually isn’t, he is very sweet and will be a real workman in the future. He just has to be shown escaping work in whatever form is not going to happen! :slight_smile:

#35

[QUOTE=EWim15;7655192]

Inevitability he tried his pull away and discovered it was actually really uncomfortable. He tried it on a number of times with several pretty serious explosions and each time he found the pressure an the gag was not worth fighting against. I kept going until it was clear he was thinking of trying a “pull away” and had decided against it. The gag is definitely the way to go. I’m sure he will try it again but this is the most effective tool yet. I could leave him alone when he was being good while at the same time providing enough discomfort when he was being stupid.

(snip)

I’ve probably made him sound like a terrible horrible horse :slight_smile: and he actually isn’t, he is very sweet and will be a real workman in the future. He just has to be shown escaping work in whatever form is not going to happen! :)[/QUOTE]

Ah, good. I’m glad that something has worked. :slight_smile:

The young smart ones can truly be such a PITA. :lol: Particularly the second they figure out just how big they are. But if raised properly, you’re right, they do end up being great partners.

#36

Now he knows how, he will keep trying it… they don’t forget.

Free lungeing in a round pen is a good idea.

Try a Chiffney bit (stallion ring) to lunge him in.

All horses have to lunge somewhat, what if he does the breakaway thing while loading and ends up on a road?

Or he will start charging off to get to some grass, etc.

Do not get left behind him in a straight line, always run to the side as he takes off. Try and get the rope behind your hips to lean on him, but even that is not enough for some.

Do you have a huge strong man around? and wear gloves.

#37

I’m glad you’ve found something that works. My advice was to get a Spanish or Portuguese cavesson. Relatively gentle while they are behaving but a force to be reckoned with when they start with their antics. You might have to shop around a bit (sometime ebay or consignment shops) but itsva fantastic tool to have in the kit.

#38

Sorry, but I’ve got to say, if you have to use a super strong pressure halter, your horse’s ground manners are not impeccable and you are seeing that in the longeing. YOU are the one compartmentalizing. He doesn’t respect you on the ground and it’s coming out elsewhere.

I like to say this to people who say their issues can’t be solved with groundwork because their horse’s are already good on the ground: “If Buck Brannaman had your horse, would he think the horse had impeccable ground manners? Would he be able to fix the problem?”

Now, most of us don’t even come close to approximating what Buck can do with a horse, but step one is looking at what you are doing (escalating to harsher and harsher tatics) and stop making excuses that the horse “compartmentalizes,” etc. Then start working the problem to the best of your ability. Most likely this horse has your number and knows it. He has no respect for you, only for your harsh gadgets. You need to get him working for you on the ground FROM A SOFT FEEL, not from super strong halters, etc and then move on.

FWIW: Buck hates longeing, calls the longe line the most dangerous piece of equipment and says it just teaches them to pull on the line…which is what you are experiencing.

#39

I will tell you what worked with my SUPER STRONG Fjord, who could easily be pulling tree trunks out of the ground by the roots had he been born in a different time and place.

Put a surcingle on him. Run the reins from the halter (or cavesson), through the surcingle, and back to your hands. When he bolts, LET GO of the outside rein entirely, and use the torque of the surcingle to pull him into a one-rein halt. He’ll end up facing you.

Now, my guy is not explosive. He’s strong, but not explosive. So your mileage may vary.

Here’s a video of him attempting a break out. He hasn’t tried it since this failed attempt (about a month).

#40

I have one of these…

He has gotten away from everyone over the years. Several different trainers thought they could fix it.

We don’t ever lunge him, unless we can free lunge him.

The one time, I HAD to lunge him. I took 4 people with me, to hold the end of the rope, like anchors.

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse