[QUOTE=Laurierace;8167729]
Win or lose he will be hard pressed to make a bigger ass out of himself than last year’s rendition on the “talk show” tour.[/QUOTE]
LOL, yup.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8167690]
I don’t entirely disagree. But it is the NY times and a LOT of people don’t dismiss it as you have. No disrespect intended.
I don’t think Drape has a “vendetta” per-say and I don’t think his “agenda” hasn’t served a purpose for the good of change. He has written about a lot of things that have been right also.
I’ve been around long time and have seen and or heard lot of things that I was not comfortable with. And that includes how “business” is conducted in Lexington.
But that’s not my point. The fact that it was written about Zayat’s BS instead of about the horse is my point.
I don’t have a problem with the guy liking to bet. What I do have a huge problem with his betting is the fact he does it with off shore betting that puts NOTHING back into the sport. You know like purses, the purses that he has enjoyed a lot of. Completely disingenuous and self serving. He’s a businessman he knows how the sport works. But he’s too greedy to pay his fair share.
Another bit out controversy it the fact that people are questioning how/why he was granted an owners license. It states very clearly on the application; have you ever been associated with illegal gambling, and or those convicted of such. Not verbatim but close enough. It also contains languish dealing with being associated with convicted felons.
I am not saying he should not have been granted a license. It’s just more dirt that may or may not overshadow the event.
It’s a darn shame that Silver Charm lost the Triple Crown by 3/4 of a length. Nothing negative could have been written about the Lewis’.
Even Drape would have written a “happy” article. And they would have been GREAT for the sport and the industry.
If Zayat does get it I doubt he will be very popular on the “talk show” tour.[/QUOTE]
Not really wanting to jump into the fray here, but to say he puts nothing back into the sport is a bit disengenuous. He probably owns over 200 horses, and with that comes a lot of board, training, vet, vanning, feed, hay and employing people to take care of those horses.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8167690]
If Zayat does get it I doubt he will be very popular on the “talk show” tour.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for bringing up the background on these owners, OP. I’m not too enamored of the whole human crew - owners, trainer, or jockey. I liked Victor ok last year, but now he really seems to have developed an ego.
It’s too bad the horse can’t be interviewed! Would much rather spend some time listening to him. 
[QUOTE=halo;8168024]
Not really wanting to jump into the fray here, but to say he puts nothing back into the sport is a bit disengenuous. He probably owns over 200 horses, and with that comes a lot of board, training, vet, vanning, feed, hay and employing people to take care of those horses.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. But that was not my point.
The ONLY reason to breed, raise and train all those horses, the only reason all those people draw a pay check off those horses is the potential money they can earn at the racetracks.
The bulk of a racetrack’s profit comes from people betting. That’s what they “sell”. If people like Zayat bet “off-shore” and or use a “bookie”. IMO it is no different than going to a restaurant bringing your own food to save on the “mark-up” and only ordering a glass of soda.
The “Handle” is THE most important number all of us in the business should be paying attention to. Auction sales averages are meaningless without racetracks. Without racetracks there would be no need for farms, farriers, shippers, feed companies, grooms, trainers, etc. that cater to the TB business.
I have no “agenda” for or against Zayat. My “agenda” is to be proud of what I do for a living. I take the time to comment so perhaps people will look at the bigger picture. And understand the ramifications of negative press.
[QUOTE=CVPeg;8168038]
Thanks for bringing up the background on these owners, OP. I’m not too enamored of the whole human crew - owners, trainer, or jockey. I liked Victor ok last year, but now he really seems to have developed an ego.
It’s too bad the horse can’t be interviewed! Would much rather spend some time listening to him. ;)[/QUOTE]
That’s one of the reasons I was really rooting for CC last year. I really liked Art Sherman and thought a TC would be well deserved by that guy. Too had it didn’t happen.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8168149]
That’s one of the reasons I was really rooting for CC last year. I really liked Art Sherman and thought a TC would be well deserved by that guy. Too had it didn’t happen.[/QUOTE]
Sherman, yes, but the DAPs? Do you truly think they are good for the sport??
[QUOTE=frehley;8168459]
Sherman, yes, but the DAPs? Do you truly think they are good for the sport??[/QUOTE]
I said SHERMAN. I didn’t mention the others. To see Sherman win a TC would far outweigh any negatives from DAP, Coburn, etc.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8164943]
I guess honor and integrity doesn’t mean much these days.[/QUOTE]
Wow, nice. I just choose not to pass judgment on people that I don’t know. There is nothing I can do about who owns what horse, and I see no point in arguing about whether or not a horse “should” win because of it’s connections. Life’s not fair. Learned that a long long time ago.
[QUOTE=Flash44;8168729]
Wow, nice. I just choose not to pass judgment on people that I don’t know. There is nothing I can do about who owns what horse, and I see no point in arguing about whether or not a horse “should” win because of it’s connections. Life’s not fair. Learned that a long long time ago.[/QUOTE]
Very well said, Flash44.
Do you know for sure whatever betting he was doing offshore was on the ponies? Because most of the folks I know who bet off shore bet on other sports, like football.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8168051]
Fair enough. But that was not my point.
The ONLY reason to breed, raise and train all those horses, the only reason all those people draw a pay check off those horses is the potential money they can earn at the racetracks.
The bulk of a racetrack’s profit comes from people betting. That’s what they “sell”. If people like Zayat bet “off-shore” and or use a “bookie”. IMO it is no different than going to a restaurant bringing your own food to save on the “mark-up” and only ordering a glass of soda.
The “Handle” is THE most important number all of us in the business should be paying attention to. Auction sales averages are meaningless without racetracks. Without racetracks there would be no need for farms, farriers, shippers, feed companies, grooms, trainers, etc. that cater to the TB business.
I have no “agenda” for or against Zayat. My “agenda” is to be proud of what I do for a living. I take the time to comment so perhaps people will look at the bigger picture. And understand the ramifications of negative press.[/QUOTE]
And btw, for all those who revere Calumet Farm, if you take a look at the tactics used by Warren Wright to pulverize the baking powder competition, you might realize CF doesn’t belong on a pedestal anymore than any other owner. There were a LOT of dirty tricks. My own opinion is that most people have some sort of dirty laundry and that’s not what I watch horse racing to hear about. I’m into the horses. If the owners could be fun, too, that would be nice. But the horses are primary.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8168051]
Fair enough. But that was not my point.
The ONLY reason to breed, raise and train all those horses, the only reason all those people draw a pay check off those horses is the potential money they can earn at the racetracks.
The bulk of a racetrack’s profit comes from people betting. That’s what they “sell”. If people like Zayat bet “off-shore” and or use a “bookie”. IMO it is no different than going to a restaurant bringing your own food to save on the “mark-up” and only ordering a glass of soda.
The “Handle” is THE most important number all of us in the business should be paying attention to. Auction sales averages are meaningless without racetracks. Without racetracks there would be no need for farms, farriers, shippers, feed companies, grooms, trainers, etc. that cater to the TB business.
I have no “agenda” for or against Zayat. My “agenda” is to be proud of what I do for a living. I take the time to comment so perhaps people will look at the bigger picture. And understand the ramifications of negative press.[/QUOTE]
You do understand that these charges of offshore gambling are from bets apparently placed over 10 years ago. I am fairly confident that he has run plenty of money thru legal channels since then.
[QUOTE=SportArab;8168974]
And btw, for all those who revere Calumet Farm, if you take a look at the tactics used by Warren Wright to pulverize the baking powder competition, you might realize CF doesn’t belong on a pedestal anymore than any other owner. There were a LOT of dirty tricks. My own opinion is that most people have some sort of dirty laundry and that’s not what I watch horse racing to hear about. I’m into the horses. If the owners could be fun, too, that would be nice. But the horses are primary.[/QUOTE]
Not only that, but I have wondered for years and years and years about the fact that an ordinary race horse like Bull Lea could produce a juggernaut of champions for Calumet, and each of those colts ended up being miserable stallions. Not just ordinary, but miserable. Which makes me laugh when people talk about how horses used to run on hay, oats, and water. I guarantee that horses running back then were running absolutely loaded. I do wonder what Calumet’s magical potion was. But thats a discussion for another thread.
Interestingly, Warren Wright had his horses on every potion and supplement he could lazy his hands on–and they were losing. When Ben Jones took over as trainer he chucked all that stuff out and went back to basics–and they started winning.
Old Money (def) Family money so old that no one can remember who first stole it.
Money takes on a patina with age. In its youth it is garish, ill gotten and often illicit.
When I was young, the “old Guard” included names like Widener who descended from a man who made his fortune selling rotten meat to both the Union and the Confederates. The revered Vanderbilt clan, scion of which, Alfred as an elder statesman of racing, was founded by Cornelius “The Commodore” who was known as much for his ruthlessness as his crude demeanor.
The Gilded Age and early 20th century yielded may fortunes, often based on stock manipulation, bribery of officials and other deceits. Over 100 years later, with the name on libraries and colleges and hospitals, with families associated with an old and gracious lifestyle, we don’t consider the source. Who knows, maybe 75 years from now racing fans will be hoping that Zayat’s great grandchildren will continue the great family association with racing?
Yup. Americans for reasons which I have never grasped seem to love old money. When Affirmed was in the midst of his bid for the TC, there were plenty of news stories dredging up Louis Wolfson’s conviction (on, in my opinion, a trumped up bunch of charges). Lou Wolfson was very new money and he was competing against the venerable Calumet, whose ill gotten dollars had lost enough of their crispness for them to seem old.
[QUOTE=frehley;8168459]
Sherman, yes, but the DAPs? Do you truly think they are good for the sport??[/QUOTE]
Actually, I do. To the best of my knowledge neither of the DAP guys has ever been accused of criminal, abusive or unethical behavior. No allegations of horse abuse have ever surfaced. These are two small time owners who hit it big–isn’t that everyone’s dream?
They’ve kept their very popular horse running when they could have cashed in(admittedly for much less money than they wanted)at the end of his three year old career. They’ve been willing to roll the dice, racing Chrome on turf and overseas sans drugs when they could have done the boring conventional thing and targeted the big bucks dirt races in the U.S. carefully dodging any real competition. Now of course I understand perfectly well that they’re doing this to prop up their unfashionably bred colt’s stud deal but can’t you say the same about any other owners of any intact champion Thoroughbred?
Yes, one of the partners once made a stupid, unsportsmanlike, alcohol fueled, classless remark about the connections of Tonalist and other contenders in the Belmont Stakes who did not run the Triple Crown gauntlet and for some people that is unforgivable. Yes they had their moment of public conflict when Martin decided to send Chrome to England after the DWC but looking at pictures of the horse training this could turn out very well for them–it sure as hell hasn’t hurt the horse.
For me what would be great for racing would be for California Chrome to surprise the critics at Ascot and come back to the U.S. tanned, rested and ready for a successful summer campaign and a fall showdown with (hopefully) Triple Crown Winner American Pharoah in the Breeder’s Cup.
Now that would be great for the sport!
Probably won’t happen that way but it would be awesome!
I think you touched on the reason it is pretty muted this year. Zayat and Baffert just don’t make for this kind of story. I respect the horse and I hope he does it but Chrome was such a moonshot that it captivated the imagination of a lot of people. Little things are all around the current runner. Why was AP listed as a sale instead of an RNA? Well that doesn’t really help the stallion and Zayat owns most of the stallion.
Then there is the PETA thing with Zayat and the bankruptcy and Baffert’s spate of [equine] heart attacks a few years back.
I don’t see anyone trashing the horse per se for all of this but its not as easy a ride on this bandwagon. It reminds me a little of I’ll Have Another in that respect.
[QUOTE=Brooklyncowgirl;8170949]
Actually, I do. To the best of my knowledge neither of the DAP guys has ever been accused of criminal, abusive or unethical behavior. No allegations of horse abuse have ever surfaced. These are two small time owners who hit it big–isn’t that everyone’s dream?
They’ve kept their very popular horse running when they could have cashed in(admittedly for much less money than they wanted)at the end of his three year old career. They’ve been willing to roll the dice, racing Chrome on turf and overseas sans drugs when they could have done the boring conventional thing and targeted the big bucks dirt races in the U.S. carefully dodging any real competition. Now of course I understand perfectly well that they’re doing this to prop up their unfashionably bred colt’s stud deal but can’t you say the same about any other owners of any intact champion Thoroughbred?
Yes, one of the partners once made a stupid, unsportsmanlike, alcohol fueled, classless remark about the connections of Tonalist and other contenders in the Belmont Stakes who did not run the Triple Crown gauntlet and for some people that is unforgivable. Yes they had their moment of public conflict when Martin decided to send Chrome to England after the DWC but looking at pictures of the horse training this could turn out very well for them–it sure as hell hasn’t hurt the horse.
For me what would be great for racing would be for California Chrome to surprise the critics at Ascot and come back to the U.S. tanned, rested and ready for a successful summer campaign and a fall showdown with (hopefully) Triple Crown Winner American Pharoah in the Breeder’s Cup.
Now that would be great for the sport!
Probably won’t happen that way but it would be awesome![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pronzini;8171038]
I think you touched on the reason it is pretty muted this year. Zayat and Baffert just don’t make for this kind of story. I respect the horse and I hope he does it but Chrome was such a moonshot that it captivated the imagination of a lot of people. Little things are all around the current runner. Why was AP listed as a sale instead of an RNA? Well that doesn’t really help the stallion and Zayat owns most of the stallion.
Then there is the PETA thing with Zayat and the bankruptcy and Baffert’s spate of [equine] heart attacks a few years back.
I don’t see anyone trashing the horse per se for all of this but its not as easy a ride on this bandwagon. It reminds me a little of I’ll Have Another in that respect.[/QUOTE]
Well said. Nice to see someone else got “my point”. I started this thread as a spinoff of the thread “Why isn’t Pharoah being hyped as much?” I was going to titled it that way but thought it would be more interesting to see how people “ran” with it.
I have nothing against the horse nor the owner by and large. I like the horse just don’t like the owner’s “politics”, way of doing business. Just because others in the past have done the same or worse doesn’t make it “right” in my book.
My sense of “fairness, right and wrong” has cost me a lot of money in the horse business. I was told by a VERY well-known and respected “name” in the business when living in Lexington, “you won’t go very far in this business because you are too honest”. So be it, I sleep well at night and honor the good name my father gave me.
“Why was AP listed as a sale instead of an RNA?”
Because it was a “shame, set up” sale from the get go. The horse had the “physical” to make the “cut” on that part of the “selection” process but did not have the pedigree. The dam’s pedigree is VERY weak. I much prefer CCs bottom line. IMO and experience the horse was taken based solely on the “politics” of the business.
They “set up” the sale to boost the sire’s yearling average being from his first crop. I would bet there was little to no “live” money above $100-150,000. They had a high profile agent sign the ticket. Moot now but if the horse had turned out to be just “another” horse the mare’s sales produce record would “read” better than having an “RNA” next to the yearlings sales price. So her next yearling would be more attractive to buyers who don’t know what they are doing and or don’t know how to extrapolate, read between the lines of sales records.
I have been a “professional under bidder” many times over the years to “run up” the price for sellers and or have signed tickets as buyer when it really was an RNA.
My father was COO and executive VP of Fasig Tipton for many years. The Saratoga sale was his “baby” he did not put up with that kind of BS. He would have read Taylor Made and Zayat the “riot act” when it came to light. RNA or nothing in his book of “credibility”.
IMO your “analogy” with I’ll Have Another is spot on. A very good friend of mine and fellow bloodstock agent is the racing manager for Reddam. He spent the afternoon at my farm the day before the Preakness to catch up and spend some “down time”. I told him I hope you win the Preakness but not the Triple Crown. He laughed and understood where I was coming from. Enough said, we dropped the subject and spent rest of the afternoon drinking and talking about other things. I did give up very good seats with him would have been hypocritical. I can tell you this Reddam has been VERY good to him. My “beef” was not with the owner.
[QUOTE=Brooklyncowgirl;8170949]
Actually, I do. To the best of my knowledge neither of the DAP guys has ever been accused of criminal, abusive or unethical behavior. No allegations of horse abuse have ever surfaced. These are two small time owners who hit it big–isn’t that everyone’s dream?
They’ve kept their very popular horse running when they could have cashed in(admittedly for much less money than they wanted)at the end of his three year old career. They’ve been willing to roll the dice, racing Chrome on turf and overseas sans drugs when they could have done the boring conventional thing and targeted the big bucks dirt races in the U.S. carefully dodging any real competition. Now of course I understand perfectly well that they’re doing this to prop up their unfashionably bred colt’s stud deal but can’t you say the same about any other owners of any intact champion Thoroughbred?
Yes, one of the partners once made a stupid, unsportsmanlike, alcohol fueled, classless remark about the connections of Tonalist and other contenders in the Belmont Stakes who did not run the Triple Crown gauntlet and for some people that is unforgivable. Yes they had their moment of public conflict when Martin decided to send Chrome to England after the DWC but looking at pictures of the horse training this could turn out very well for them–it sure as hell hasn’t hurt the horse.
For me what would be great for racing would be for California Chrome to surprise the critics at Ascot and come back to the U.S. tanned, rested and ready for a successful summer campaign and a fall showdown with (hopefully) Triple Crown Winner American Pharoah in the Breeder’s Cup.
Now that would be great for the sport!
Probably won’t happen that way but it would be awesome![/QUOTE]
I think it is great that they are racing the horse over there. Plus the “locals” will get a kick out of those “silly Americans”.
