(2021 Update in last post [#159 I think] He's at Peace now) Help needed, horse is clearly miserable and we haven't found why. (Video clips included)

[Xctrygirl]

I was on the fence about posting this but I truly am pretty tired and stressed trying to make my poor boy happier.

Backstory:

This is “Lunar” who I am referring to. He was purchased by us 4 years ago when we had had him on trial a whopping 3 days. I was about to schedule his ppe when my friend who helped us at the barn called and let me know he was hurt… badly. Long story short he punctured his right stifle joint wide open in the field by himself. So I bought him that day. We rested and doctored him for 3 months and he survived and hasn’t had any issues with that leg at all.

I did have him in work for a year and change and we actively marketed him for sale and some nice people came and rode him and he was completely ammy friendly and very patient. But right as more people wanted to come try him he got the worlds worst abscess. He was on the shelf lame for 2.5 months. Right from the beginning of September until Thanksgiving. Winter set in and we just turned him out. After that he went down the totem pole a notch. Then in the spring he got the worlds biggest splint. I mean it looked like I had super glued a golf ball to the inside of his leg. So again he went from in work mildly to out of work and then turned out. In the interim times my other horses were prospering and going very well. First Lad, then Petey and then Gin all seemed to push him back to be relegated to the back of the line.

Eventually he was just living out, which sucked because he is a fabulous mover and jumper but as I tried to bring him back into work each next time it seemed that he’d grown a bit more feral. I take full accountability for this reality but now where we are is really confusing.

In June of this year I knew I had to get him working and sold. 4 years for a resale isn’t the best plan and I really did want to try to find him his own person to have fun with. I sent him to some friends for 30 days on training board so that they could tackle the whole buck, rear, restart mode. He was great with them and was even practicing courses and changes before he came home. Then crazy heat and rain kicked in and he came off his regular work schedule. When I had tried to work him he was resistant to the point of threatening rears and bucks, freezing and generally transmitting his intense unhappiness.

In August when I was going on vaca for 8 days I sent him back to the same farm he was at in June and the report after my trip was much different. They said he was unruly and never really settled at all. Which surprised them and depressed me. That was the same reality I was facing.

I have tried since then to work him more and more often to try to get him in a regular program. I lunge him before I ride to try to get the worst of it out and have started using side reins to help give him a place to work into. On Oct 7th I made a video of what it was like to ride him after a week off ( Show had taken me away the week before)

This was me trying a hackamore noseband for the first time since he’d been amazingly quiet and good with a halter with two shanks a week before that. He’s constantly chomping on the bit when I ride, like Pac Man, so I thought I would try a change. Make sure you have the sound on so you can hear his vocalizations.

October 7, 2017

Since then I have recommitted to riding/working him MUCH more regularly. He’s improved a bit but is a different horse from the quiet boy I bought.

So Saturday I had a woman come out to look at him… price was to be ‘free’ for her (Known through a friend) with lots of paperwork that he couldn’t go to slaughter, I must be notified about any changes and the understanding that he could always come home to me. I just figure he needs some kind of a change and I am willing to do whatever he needs to help him be happy.

Videos are below. Shockingly she never rode him. LOL.

Lunar - Flat

Lunar - Flat 2

A couple things the videos don’t show well. I am holding the breastplate strap and not holding onto his mouth as he is prone to curling badly. He’s always had this issue and I have never used draw reins or the like on him. Side reins while lunging is a new thing, this is an older issue. I am not pushing him fully forward. I have on my regular rides but I was trying to quiet him down for the potential ‘adopter’ but even when I do it he kind of latches on to the forward and gets his stride too strung out and out of rhythm.

To be clear we’ve done a LOT to try to sort out his issues:

Saddle fit evaluation
Dental
Lameness eval
Time off
Bute trials
4 shoes instead of 2 or barefoot
(As mentioned above) a month in full training.

This horse is a sweetheart in the barn and was happily standing in the cross ties as kids of all ages were grooming him when at the June barn during their summer camp.

I think we’re going to check for Ulcers next but I am totally at a loss and I am unhappy that he’s so unhappy.

For reference here’s what he looked like before:

Lunar flat work 3.29.15

Lunar's Best Hunter round ever!!! (Mine too!)

Any and all other thoughts are welcome.

Em

[inca]

As an owner of a horse with stifle issues, I think it can be REALLY hard to tell when their stifle hurts enough to make them uncomfortable but not enough to make them super lame.

Lyme disease???

I would definitely check for ulcers. Could try treating for a week with ranitidine and see if it helps.

Could try Quiessence and see if the magnesium helps.

I have a horse that is at my trainer’s place because he is TOTALLY different there than he is at my house. Can not figure out what makes him so difficult at my house and so easy at her place. But, since your guy was bad back at the place he had done well at, perhaps that rules out some weird routine/environment issue that he does not like.

[halt]

he is super cute. i think you can cross of hackamore, he doesn’t seem to like it much… mine also fussed with the bit and had an identical reaction with the hackamore.

i don’t think he is moving the same in the new videos as he did before. he takes a few steps where his stifles look really sore. i think you’re on the right path to investigate, something somewhere looks hot. is he shod up front?

in this video, at 0:53 it’s easiest to see, i think he looks very uncomfortable on that right stifle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBLV…ature=youtu.be

i think they can lose a lot of condition and feel weak when they are brought back into work, so sometimes it’s tough to see what is weak vs what is lame…

is he this “bad” hacking out? can you do a month of no ring work with just trail riding? no asking to be in a frame or not the bit?

maybe he feels his timeline has been rushed? 30 days after 3-4ish yrs off is not the most generous schedule to be doing courses/changes, perhaps he was ok with it until the work got hard and hes protecting himself or sore somewhere.

something to think about: my gelding fussed so much with the bit and had some funny behaviors undersaddle where he was just so tense, similar to your guy but without any athletic antics… it was his back - specifically, kissing spine. it’s certainly something to consider when you have a horse that is sweet on the ground and ok on the lunge but then very tense and reactive undersaddle.

[Xctrygirl]

@halt

maybe he feels his timeline has been rushed? 30 days after 3-4ish yrs off is not the most generous schedule to be doing courses/changes, perhaps he was ok with it until the work got hard and hes protecting himself or sore somewhere.

I should explain… hasn’t been off 3-4 years. Has only been off before June about 1 year and the ‘courses’ were very small and only about 5 fences long. The way I saw it being schooled was just to get back in the swing of jumping more than a single line. Changes was just something they worked on. I hadn’t asked for it specifically but they knew I wanted to list him for sale. I haven’t asked him for lead change work since so not exactly getting pummeled on it.

I work at New Bolton so once he comes in for scoping we can have whoever else needed look at him also.

Em

[dynamite0319]

The first thing I thought before I read through the whole post was ulcers. I would test for that immediately. The other question I would ask is if you have done other stuff with him? Has he gone on trail rides? I find with a healthy horse that is irritated in the arena it can be hugely beneficial to get them out of their routine. If that were my horse and he had a mostly clear bill of health I would take him to a large property, preferably to move cattle to get his mind off himself, but to at least just go forward. To me this horse looks like he has a tremendous amount of anxiety and that could be caused by pain (ulcers) or himself.

[Xysbossmare]

So I would say you have more than one thing going on here. You are correct that checking for ulcers is definitely the next step. In the mean time I would look into MagRestore, not to ‘calm’ him down, but because magnesium deficiency can cause all of these issues and the kicker is that the green grass he was turned out on can cause it. So now he is stressed out and the stress reduces levels of magnesium. Turnout is necessary for a stressed horse, more green grass depletes it some more…etc…etc… You can have a blood test done to confirm that it is low, or you can just buy a bag and try it. The third thing is the training. Firstly, you have to take your guilt out of the equation. Feeling bad for not giving him the attention he needs is not helping him. He needs a leader. You don’t need to connect with him emotionally, first he needs to be respectful of what you are asking him, and then he can connect with you emotionally. My rule with any horse is, you get ONE. One buck, one squeal, one head shake etc, and then you are done and it gets corrected patiently and fairly, but still corrected. Go back to the basics of groundwork if you need to, but you must earn his respect. I allow my horses to tell me once that they ‘don’t want to’ or disapprove of whatever I am asking, but it must be respectful. No more excuses for rude, unruly, unsafe behavior, no excuses is your motto. Don’t worry about the over bending for now, you don’t say what breed he is so I am assuming OTTB and the over bending is common. You know that that will solve itself once he is relaxing, taking your lead and moving forwards from behind again. Like I said take your emotions out of the equation, be patient and fair but firm and a leader, and don’t be embarrassed to ask a knowledgeable person for help. And don’t worry, you haven’t ruined him, he will be just fine, just remind him of how to be the good boy he used to be

[Xctrygirl]

He goes on hacks. Some days he’s great. Other days he’s dangerous. As I ride alone 95% of the time I have to be careful.

I did take him off site a couple weeks ago to a local farm hosting a h/j show. We only went to walk around and play in the outdoor ring. Not to show or be in the indoor where the show was being held. He was pretty bad from the get go and I was only asking him to walk under saddle around the farm after first walking him in hand around the farm. In the outdoor it only worsened. To the point that he repeatedly froze and I tried to work through it and succeeded some times but some times I had to dismount and take him to the mounting block and get on again. Eventually he let me walk him out of the outdoor under saddle but would only walk part way around the parking area before freezing in place for good.

That was my low point. I am not having fun. I don’t want to get hurt and I am miserable that I haven’t been able to find the thing that brings him back to joyful. I don’t care if he doesn’t want to do any disciplines I do, I just don’t want him this upset to the point of being headed towards dangerous.

Right now he’s a fabulous companion horse. But that’s just not enough. This is the first time in my entire horse life that I have ever considered putting an animal down. But every time the thought passes through my mind it makes me want to not give up on him and try harder to find a way to find his joy. And honestly I am just not sure if it’s possible. But I don’t want to quit yet. He deserves me trying some more.

Em

[Xctrygirl]

@Xysbossmare

In theory I agree with you about being a leader. I have been a leader with this horse for 4 years. I am very experienced with OTTB’s and I do know my stuff. This horse, in this moment, will throw down and fight. He came from an abusive situation and I know full well that with him there is a very fine line about how much I can dictate to him “YOU WILL BEHAVE.” I am not going to take our relationship there again. I did once years ago and it was the worst month of our time together. Not as bad as now, but pretty close. I earned this horse’s trust and I do completely tell him no, in the way I know I can. But if you get on him with a cowboy attitude to make him yield… it will leave one or both of you broken. That’s not the way forward. in my opinion, on any horse.

I am not as emotional on his back as my words may lend you to believe. I am sad, but on him I am careful and still asking him to do as I ask.

Emily

[findeight]

Just first impressions,…he’s moving a foot, at least, shorter compared to the earlier videos. He looks dead fresh and wound up but that does not explain that much of a shorter step. And pretty sure he wasn’t dead fresh, right out of the field to show to the potential “buyer” here. I wouldn’t have gotten on him either.

I dunno what to tell you but he’s not even half tracking up and under here. I would suspect something behind but not automatically assume it’s stifle. Mine would curl up and move short when hocks bothered it to try to keep the weight off behind, seen rear suspensories act lije that too. Not that Im saying it’s hocks or suspensories here, just something behind. Maybe some blocks bottom up? Might want to think about SI or back here too…something isn’t right.

It might be a really good idea to pull a blood panel on him to rule out anything systemic. Lyme gets some of them nuts as can EPM. Least you can consider those to rule in or out. Not $$$.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

What a tough position to be in OP! I am no trainer or veterinarian, but here are my observations.

He is so far on the forehand that he is stumbling, a lot in your October 7th video. In your previous videos, I do not see this manner of going at all and am wondering what changed. Then after nearly every jump in the same video, he massively sucks back and falls on the forehand and/or bucks for quite a bit. He looks happy going into the fence, then his demeanor changes as soon as he lands making me think something hurts. I have no idea what that could be… stifles, ulcers, hind gut displacement, bone spurs, discomfort due to physical weakness, I have no idea!

In the most recent videos, your reins are decently shorter than previous videos. I am guessing this is for your own safety as you are a very nice rider, but I think this contributes to what looks to be a very anxious horse. You are the one there so would know him best, but I never see a “Screw you!!!” look on his face, not even during his antics. He is better in this video, but like @findeight mentioned, he is not tracking up still

I hope you can figure out what is bothering him so he can find his perfect home. Good luck OP!

[awaywego]

Broken record here - I would suggest testing for Lyme as well. In my personal experience, it can change their personality - maybe (probably?) due to physical changes that we can’t easily see. It’s something I would try to rule out before going to more expensive diagnostics.

I have a horse with a similarly spotted off/on history and I feel like each time he’s come back a little worse than before, and I’m similarly really sad about it. I ride by myself 95% of the time as well and it’s hard to keep trying to “ride out of it” day in and day out. No fun at all :no:

[no.stirrups]

I know you said you checked saddle fit, but that saddle is absolutely shocking. I couldn’t watch beyond 30 seconds into the first video it is so bad. I tried a quick peak at the others. If I were there in person as a fitter I would have had you get off. Please get something else! Whether or not that is the whole problem, it is certainly a contributing factor. It is on his shoulder, way too far forward, badly restricting his movement, it is no wonder he is stumbling and can’t go over a jump! Clearly you are a conscientious horse owner and you aren’t intentionally hurting him but you are hurting him. Fix that, and then let’s see what we’ve got.

[theinstigator]

What is he like on the lunge line or at will in turnout?

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah, something definitely hurts! A Lyme test is easy enough and so are x-rays, IMO. I would definitely x-ray the back and neck. For whatever reason, Americans seem to rarely ever radiograph the back and neck. PPE and diagnostics are all about legs and hooves. That’s my somewhat limited experience from when I was involved with the US market, but I’ve heard others say the same.

I’d definitely follow your plan to scope, but he could have ulcers and something else. That something else could have caused the stress that created the ulcers, it’s a worm hole sometimes.

I’d scope, blood test (especially Lyme), get some radiographs, and go from there. On another note bringing back a stifle injury is a slow, delicate, and careful process that needs consistency if that is still bothering him. If he’s dumping on the front end, it is likely that something in the back end is bothering him.

It could be so many things, and I don’t envy you. It’s so difficult, but it is good to see that you are really trying to do it right for the horse.

Also, are you sure about the saddle? Positively sure? Because that was my first instinct…was to say the saddle was a factor. If only it could be so easy…

How is he at liberty, lunging, long lining etc?

[jetsmom]

To me, he looks high as a kite. a compressed ball of energy, behind the bit, ready to explode. The squeals fit that also. Have you tried turning out in a large area like a big arena so be can run and buck. And then longe him in side reins)really making him work (lots of transitions,)? Then groom and tack up to allow adrenalin to settle. Then when you get on to warm up, canter a large fwd circle on a soft rein until he is relaxed. Reverse and do tbe same thing. Then walk for about 5 min, then work/ride normally. My tb, Jet looks like he does when he is fresh.

[Xctrygirl]

On a lunge (Day after hackamore video) admittedly with side reins…

https://youtu.be/WREUkY1TRmE

At will in field on a night that I put them all out together.

https://youtu.be/PMre3Bzdh-U

[Xctrygirl]

@jetsmom He feels high as a kite. And the squealing does mesh with that.

Don’t have a great wide open place to run that doesn’t have some lurking danger to my health if he decides not to be obedient.

Older videos are in different saddle. Could try that one again, but it was determined by my saddle fitter to be crooked in the panels. Hence why no longer in use.

I can try another saddle I just got in but I don’t know that it would be better. But it would fit on the different side of things.

Em

[IPEsq]

Oh boy, I recognize that head shaking, tail swishing, going sideways thing. Mine are now turning into full on tantrum mode, and I can’t figure out what’s wrong either. Definitely check for ulcers. I can’t really tell how his hind end looks because he’s so guarded in his body and won’t move relaxed, but it could be stifles or higher in the pelvis. Or Lyme or a million things. I really feel for you.

[CanteringCarrot]

Ditch the side reins. That horse seems pissed off that he cannot go forward and stretch. A bit in the under saddle video and lunging now that I re-watch. The side reins, IMO, are too constricting and he does not/cannot get a true stretch and forward out of it.

Instead of side reins, I’d consider another “set up” if you must lunge with any kind of devices. Possibly vienna reins or draw rein style lunge reins (not riding draw reins). I’ve seen those two produce more forward and stretchy work that allows a horse to loosen in similar situations. So, something to consider.

I still stand by my other post, but from a training perspective I’d consider the things that I mentioned.

Does it really “go down” if you do not touch his mouth at all, add leg, reward forward and just GO. Could be all over the place, no agenda other than GO. I also would not be putting jumps in front of this horse, but I can understand where you were coming from on that one due to your explanation.

[halt]

@Xctrygirl

On a lunge (Day after hackamore video) admittedly with side reins…

https://youtu.be/WREUkY1TRmE

At will in field on a night that I put them all out together.

https://youtu.be/PMre3Bzdh-U

hmm. i think there’s definitely something going on in his back or behind then. he looks much sounder on the lunge than he does undersaddle but he still looks very tight and locked up high. in the field he looks better until he starts cantering and you can definitely see at the canter he is very short-strided.

loved the video of them frolicking in the field. that grey looks very athletic with his sproinking around :lol: