(2021 Update in last post [#159 I think] He's at Peace now) Help needed, horse is clearly miserable and we haven't found why. (Video clips included)

[inca]

I know a lot of people will scoff at this, but what about starting over from scratch. Ground work with a rope halter. Yielding to “pressure”, paying attention to handler, doing short trot circles on the end of the 30’ line, etc. Just lots of work that isn’t physically demanding but he has to pay attention. Then gradually increase the amount of time that is more like longeing. Start all of this WITHOUT the saddle and then add the saddle if he starts being more relaxed. He is just SO tense that I don’t think more longeing with side reins and riding is going to help the situation.

This in addition to testing for lyme disease and/or scoping or treating for ulcers. I would also give the magnesium a try to see if you can get any kind of muscle relaxation.

Also, FWIW, stifle issues often show up more at the canter than at the trot.

[cayuse]

Is there any correlation between his head shaking moments and being in the bright sun? I keep watching the videos and notice some snorting before the head shaking as if he is irritated. I had a mare who was diagnosed with photic head shaking syndrome and what she did was very similar to this (snorting then shaking, tossing etc). Also, he looked happier in the lunging video which looked like it was taken at dusk.
Hope you find an answer, he is a handsome guy.

[Xctrygirl]

@CanteringCarrot

I also would not be putting jumps in front of this horse, but I can understand where you were coming from on that one due to your explanation.

He’s for sure not jumping much at all. But in a way I think that adds to the crap soup. He actually relaxes jumping, never rushes, never bails and has been known to walk flat footed after even a couple small jumps.

Believe me when I say that I have been trying everything. Including just lunging with a halter. Some improvement but not a ton. I really do think it could be 10 things at once. I’m talking to my vet friends at work and he will likely come here at some point maybe. Sadly he’s my one uninsured horse so unlike all the others his full visit price will be coming out of the bank. And for that reason we’re trying to make a solid plan. We may take advantage of our Lyme Package as it really does have a lot for the price.

Em

[Jo]

I’m in no way an expert, but have you tried taking all the tack off and lunging him over a fence without a breastplate and martingale and asking him to GO FORWARD? I wouldn’t have the nerve to do it from the saddle myself… but I’d certainly want to give it a try. I’m talking really forward - active canter at the very least after the fence.

[halt]

@inca

I know a lot of people will scoff at this, but what about starting over from scratch. Ground work with a rope halter. Yielding to “pressure”, paying attention to handler, doing short trot circles on the end of the 30’ line, etc. Just lots of work that isn’t physically demanding but he has to pay attention. Then gradually increase the amount of time that is more like longeing. Start all of this WITHOUT the saddle and then add the saddle if he starts being more relaxed. He is just SO tense that I don’t think more longeing with side reins and riding is going to help the situation.

This in addition to testing for lyme disease and/or scoping or treating for ulcers. I would also give the magnesium a try to see if you can get any kind of muscle relaxation.

Also, FWIW, stifle issues often show up more at the canter than at the trot.

i don’t scoff at this at all. i wonder if the horse could benefit from a very slow return to work. he looks mentally fried, i had one come back on lease like this as well and he needed time to sort it out. not saying OP or anyone rushed him but he may do better with a very careful and slow conditioning schedule. i’m talking riding 4-6x a week, walking on hacks only, for a few weeks, followed by a very slow trot conditioning schedule.

[Lord_Helpus]

In all your list of things tried, I do not see a body work person (chiropractor and/or deep tissue massage). Considering that he looks much more like a normal horse when not carrying a rider, and if I only had one guess, I would say “spine”. Perhaps kissing spine or ‘referred pain’ branching out from the spinal cord and radiating downward.

Dr Chris Newton (R&R) comes here every 6 weeks for horses with the latter kind of problem. He injects a long acting tranq every 4 - 6" down either side of the spine, with directions to use a Pessoa or Neckstretcher, or side reins, to encourage each horse to carry himself with a raised back (since it no longer hurts him to work in that frame.) . [NB: that did not work for my horse so we are now focusing on his hind end. No results yet, but hope springs eternal…]

[CanteringCarrot]

@Xctrygirl

He’s for sure not jumping much at all. But in a way I think that adds to the crap soup. He actually relaxes jumping, never rushes, never bails and has been known to walk flat footed after even a couple small jumps.

Believe me when I say that I have been trying everything. Including just lunging with a halter. Some improvement but not a ton. I really do think it could be 10 things at once. I’m talking to my vet friends at work and he will likely come here at some point maybe. Sadly he’s my one uninsured horse so unlike all the others his full visit price will be coming out of the bank. And for that reason we’re trying to make a solid plan. We may take advantage of our Lyme Package as it really does have a lot for the price.

Em

Of course it has to be the uninsured horse! This IS horses after all!

The Lyme package (sounds interesting) would be a good place to start. If I think it could be a myriad of things and one doesn’t seem more likely than the other, then I start at the least expensive and work up from there.

I can believe what you are saying about the jumping because you know the horse and I’m just looking at a computer and/or smartphone screen. I did have a TB myself that would go better after a few jumps. If he was having a crap flatwork day, I’d add a few jumps and it would help. He didn’t protest as dramatically as your guy, but similar concept.

[Xctrygirl]

Has had chiro sessions and more recently a PEMF session as well. I would say it helped but are we ever truly objective for things that we pay money for???

I’ll see if I can ride him forward tonight. I have done it before I am not afraid of forward or speed.

Also worth noting as I realize I forgot, this morning (Saturday) was a true 25 degree temp drop from the day before.

Em

[IPEsq]

Just saw the longe video. I don’t think he looks particularly relaxed there either in his back or pelvis. And I do agree with no side reins right now.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I tried watching the videos and just forming impressions - kind of watching with a soft eye as Sally Swift might say.

It looks to me like he is guarding something in his head/neck/shoulder/back. Even in the liberty video, it looks to me like he is “holding” rather than using his neck.

But it’s all connected. Sincere good wishes in getting it figured out.

[joiedevie99]

This is a tricky one and I sympathize. IMHO, he looks much better without a rider, but not sound. On the longe, it really seems like stifles. In the field, my eye is drawn to the SI/Hip/Pelvis much more - in particular because of the tendency to not separate the hind legs in the canter.

If this were my horse, I’d probably start him on Gastroguard today under the assumption that he is in pain and probably has ulcers now even if he didn’t before.

I’d longe him only for 2 weeks - 6 days/week. If he looks great, get on and ride him forward. If he doesn’t, or you do and the ride doesn’t go great - time for a lameness exam with a quality vet.

I’d start by pulling blood for Lyme and EPM, then I’d flex the hind end, and do some basic neuro tests. If you find an obvious issue, go after it with x-rays, ultrasounds, injections, etc. If you don’t, I’d probably wait for the blood to come back then send him in for a bone scan rather than playing guessing games and doing diagnostics on lots of joints (some of which are hard to visualize with ordinary equipment). I’d be tempted to x-ray the neck and back to look for KS, fractured withers, or impingement/arthritis in the neck - but I might do the bone scan first if I didn’t have a pretty clear suspicion that was it.

[StormyDay]

I would check for Lyme, ulcers, and his back. I doubt it’s his stifles because he clearly wants to go faster at the walk which I usually don’t see with bad stifles, and IMO if you look at any horse over the age of 8 for long enough your going to find problems in the stifles. It’s just how it is.

If none of those check out, I would get a different saddle. So many fitters hear OTTB and immediately think they are a narrow when in fact they aren’t.

lastly, if even that doesn’t do it, I know of some people who have to think a bit outside the box with their OTTBs. They lunge and let all the bucks out and then get on and pretty much immediately pick up the canter. Canter the horse around for ten min and then start the actual work. Sometimes these horses just need to go forward and get their crazy out before they can focus.

[findeight]

OK, watched the lunging video several times. Again, just an impression, but…I see something very slightly uneven in front going to the left in the steps he takes going over the pole, about the second step on the landing side, the left shoulder drops lower for just that half step when it’s bearing the weight. Not a lame step but not a square one either. Could be a bit of uneven footing, could be compensatory…see some very slight unevenness in the right hind step tracking left…again might be nothing. Tracking right he doesn’t want to step out enough to see anything. Might be just one sided, might be uncomfortable…hard to know.

If you have somebody walk and trot him away from you in a straight line on a hard surface then back towards you, watch his hips and shoulders for symmetry. That’s often more revealing then looking at legs further down. And it’s dam hard to do when you are by yourself all the time.

The liberty video doesn’t hint to me about anything but some horses in winter blankets acting silly on sloping, grassy ground that looks wet.

And, you know, I keep seeing references to the OTTB in a lot of these mystery ailment threads, Was in barns that handled quite a few WBs right off the plane that vetted sound but, 3-6 months later, had the same kind of vague irregularities that defied diagnosis. Probably true of many younger horses that have been in work. Possibly with the exception of some QHs that just are easier on themselves the more ambitious types, they have problems too but they tend to be more obvious. Least IME.

[buck22]

I don’t post in this section often, but I’ve been through the ringer with one tough customer who was VERY much like this. Your first riding video gave me chills, it was so similar. Now am facing round two with a new guy who’s throwing a lot of the same at me. Apparently, my taste in horses is almost as bad as my taste in men.

I could write a novel on both boys, but I’ll cut to the chase. Both are athletic as heck, but have soreness issues. Both are smart, sensitive and untrusting. Both had bad starts and rough pasts. Both suffered from ulcers.

Both horses were totally shut off to wanting to participate or cooperate. Both wanted to quit the rider and were damn dirty about it. The key to breaking down the resistance in both horses was totally giving up on trying to make any measurable progress and instead just seeking a happy place.

For both of them, I found it in in-hand work. Teaching softening, suppling, moving “through” and learning laterals. Both horses benefited from quick easy lessons on the ground. Lots of atta-boys, lots of scriches and loving, no admonishment for making mistakes - but being firm and not allowing bullying. Being incredibly patient and calm while they acted out their tantrums.

Suppling their bodies on the ground took away the angst of a rider up. Working in hand rather than on the longe made work more interesting and fun, not tedious circles. No side reins, no demands in the beginning. Short lessons, ending abruptly and calling it a day at a happy point, kept them interested and eager for the next lesson.

Both horses were so used to their jobs being miserable, painful, confusing, scary that they had just shut down wanting to learn at all. Once fun and happiness was restored, putting them back to real work was easy and progress happened quickly. They were supple in their bodies and mind, listening and soft.

Interestingly, both horses responded most to learning lateral work in hand, and for both its our go-to happy place if they get upset.

Horse #1 turned out to have broken withers and now is happily driving. Horse #2 I suspect a stifle issue, though he’s been cleared by a vet. In hand work is making him softer in the mind, more willing and is translating very well to ridden work. After a few months of strengthening and suppling I’ll see if I feel his stifle is still an issue and reassess then.

I wish you luck!

[AKB]

I don’t think he is sound. I would get a thorough exam including neuro/EPM testing, Lyme, ?nerve blocks to see if he has navicular bilaterally. I would also ask the vet about kissing spines.

[IPEsq]

@buck22

I don’t post in this section often, but I’ve been through the ringer with one tough customer who was VERY much like this. Your first riding video gave me chills, it was so similar. Now am facing round two with a new guy who’s throwing a lot of the same at me. Apparently, my taste in horses is almost as bad as my taste in men.

I could write a novel on both boys, but I’ll cut to the chase. Both are athletic as heck, but have soreness issues. Both are smart, sensitive and untrusting. Both had bad starts and rough pasts. Both suffered from ulcers.

Both horses were totally shut off to wanting to participate or cooperate. Both wanted to quit the rider and were damn dirty about it. The key to breaking down the resistance in both horses was totally giving up on trying to make any measurable progress and instead just seeking a happy place.

For both of them, I found it in in-hand work. Teaching softening, suppling, moving “through” and learning laterals. Both horses benefited from quick easy lessons on the ground. Lots of atta-boys, lots of scriches and loving, no admonishment for making mistakes - but being firm and not allowing bullying. Being incredibly patient and calm while they acted out their tantrums.

Suppling their bodies on the ground took away the angst of a rider up. Working in hand rather than on the longe made work more interesting and fun, not tedious circles. No side reins, no demands in the beginning. Short lessons, ending abruptly and calling it a day at a happy point, kept them interested and eager for the next lesson.

Both horses were so used to their jobs being miserable, painful, confusing, scary that they had just shut down wanting to learn at all. Once fun and happiness was restored, putting them back to real work was easy and progress happened quickly. They were supple in their bodies and mind, listening and soft.

Interestingly, both horses responded most to learning lateral work in hand, and for both its our go-to happy place if they get upset.

Horse #1 turned out to have broken withers and now is happily driving. Horse #2 I suspect a stifle issue, though he’s been cleared by a vet. In hand work is making him softer in the mind, more willing and is translating very well to ridden work. After a few months of strengthening and suppling I’ll see if I feel his stifle is still an issue and reassess then.

I wish you luck!

This is very reassuring to me. I’m upping the lateral work in hand now (after spending a lot of months on the very basics in hand) with a horse who was sore and shut down then just decided he didn’t want to play anymore. I’m hoping he can find a job at the end of the day. Glad to see it’s not just me!

[phantomhorse]

Another vote here for Lyme and EPM testing and ulcer treatment. I am not too far from you and we have had 2 cases of Lyme and 2 of EPM this year in our 3 competition horses (how lucky can you get?!). I hope you can get to the bottom of his issues.

[Risuena]

Just want to chime in and say that the video reminds me a lot of my horse when we had saddle fit issues. Might be worth another look at that.

[Xctrygirl]

OK so apologies for it taking a while for me to get back online tonight.

Instead of riding I just let him go in the ring and move at his own discretion. I would have lunged but the ring was more squishy than I liked. So I just let him do his own thing. Now you’re gonna have to be dedicated… this video is 10 minutes long. But you can see him moving and how he acts. You’ll note that he’s not fully wound to the point of running or moving constantly. Admittedly it was feed time so I wasn’t surprised that he kept returning to the gates closest to the barn.

https://youtu.be/v7wgkzmzhWA

Now there’s another part of the situation that is wearing on my mind… costs invested versus costs unlikely to recoup.

I bought him for $750 4 years ago. It took $3-4k to get over the stifle puncture. He’s probably had another $1k since then in abscesses, splint, a mean splinter and other just horse owner crap.

As he is not insured all these ideas:

Epm Testing
Lyme testing
Rads
Bone Scan
Gastroscopy
Gastro Gard treatment
New Saddle

All cost significant funds, even with my discount at work. This is a horse I am trying to sell/giveaway. I am not trying to sound harsh or uncaring but I am fighting with finding a way to find as many answers as we can but without going whole hog on a walking black hole of a horse. Who may only want to stand in a field eating grass.

I love this horse. I promise… but this is all very difficult.

I think we will start with a gastroscopy before throwing tons of money at treatments with no idea if he has ulcers or not.

We do have some ideas on how to proceed at work. But I still want to watch how much money goes out the door.

Thanks for all the great advice. I am listening and I am reading intently.

Emily

[findeight]

I will watch the loooong video…some time tomorrow. And I fully understand where you are coming from.