Thanks @findeight. Minute marker 7:40 I think he does something around there. I remember making a mental note of that.
Em
ok… my approach… I am not a huge believer for all these expensive checks… I believe if something is getting worse with daily training, then it is necessary to be checked by a vet… if something can be influenced by daily training in a positive way, then I don’t do vet checks but continue to try to find the right way of training.
I would look into your way of lunging him… I do like sidereins, but i did not like the way you lunged him with them… Please I don’t mean it bad. I just want to help. If you lunge you want to get a result. You want to develope him. Here you just got him into a shape with the side reins, but you did not really improve him… I think he looks very resistant when you ride him. And at this point I would not be able to say if there are any health issues. I liked the saddle thing. Maybe really try to find a saddle which fits well. But other then that. try to lunge him and work him over the back. Believe me that will change him a lot… It will strengthen his back and make him more comfortable…
Your lunging looks a bit unorganized… (Again I don’t want to criticize you, I just want to help) Maybe look into some videos by I.K. Not sure if I would use cavaletti at this point though. I would start very easy with very long side reins. A lot longer then you used because that will give him a chance to balance. Then try to let him trot in a nice forward way and you need to keep him moving over his back… ignore his neck for now. He needs to be forward and very fluent. You will see it when it happens… And he will start to stretch forward and not be so fuzzy with his neck… Always do a lot of walk sequences and try to start really correct trot. It is a lot of experimenting in the beginning. You need to figure out the right speed, the right length of side reins and the right dose of aids you give him… It might take some time… Be patient and praise him. And stop him immediately when he shows unwanted behavior.
Once you have the feeling that he looks amazing on the lunge, ride him afterwards and try to ride him exactly in the way you liked on the lungs. Same tempo and try to stay on a circle in the beginning. It is probably very boring and dull for you, and don’t jump him. Just flatwork.
But hopefully you will see some improvement… If he gets worse, I guess then you have to do the medical checks. But I would be positive and really hope its a training issue…
Good luck…
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The cantering forward for 5 min or so in each direction really helps jet. He gets wound up in a ball and behind the bit if you try to start off in a trot.
First I want to say how much I admire your skills. Not only that you kept him from having a come apart you did it with tact and patience.
I wouldn’t do any jumping with him for now. He just looked so uncomfortable to me. Didnt want to bend his body.
In the last video I saw that whenever he was tracking left he kept tilting his neck and nose to the outside.
I totally get why you are reluctant to put so much into expensive testing when you didn’t pay that much for him and probably won’t get it back if you did manage to fix whatever is wrong.
it could be many things
is overly sensitive to touch everywhere? Becomes restive tries to bite or kick when you groom him? That usually is a symptom of Lyme.
Is he sensitive but just around the girth when you tack him up? Could be ulcers.
He could be reacting to an ill-fitting saddle or a saddle that is sitting too high on his shoulders.
Could be kissing spine. A lot of OTTB s have it.
Is it possible he is getting some arthritic changes around the site of the old injury?
I understand it healed up but as he has gotten older there could be changes there.
He could also simply be a cold -backed horse that needs some longer warm up time before you start working him.
Can you some experimenting when you ride?
Do some lateral work and stretches to see if you can feel at what point he becomes uncomfortable starts resisting?
I would also avoiding during small circles and tight turns. Lots of transitions within the gait and don’t ask for a lot of contact until his neck and jaw are loose.
You can change direction going on the diagonal instead of circling.
Hope this helps and I do hope you find an answer.
He didn’t strike me as a horse just being naughty to get of working.
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So my first reaction is to get someone on him and let him really move out in a field/on the trail. Having said that, I don’t think I’d be keen on doing that myself, and most likely you can’t afford to get hurt doing so either.
My second thought would be testing for Lyme or treating for ulcers (nexium or Abler). Either would be reasonably priced. I understand not wanting to pour money into this horse with stuff like bone scans and MRIs and X-rays…you could do all of those things and end up with no clear answer and be out $$$.
Maybe talk to your husband and possibly someone at work about how much you’re willing to spend or how long you’re willing to have him feeling crummy. Is he happy being a pasture pet or no to that as well?
A bottle of 14 generic Nexium costs $10 at CVS. You can start him on 3/day tomorrow and find out if there’s some sort of ulcer activity immediately. There is zero excuse for not trying that out.
As for everything else… this is a complicated horse and you have given him your all. May you have peace in any decision you make.
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I completely understand this type of personality and now that you have explained that I completely agree with you! When I first watched your videos of lunging and playing in field I was going to agree with the others that said he seems like there is some pain somewhere. However I then watched your video of him in the arena. There is clearly no pain/lameness on that horse. When he is not anxious he moves very well at all gaits. Plus as you have stated in your original post and others, you have done lameness evals, and chiro and so on and so on. I think putting him on a supplement for ulcers is probably the most cost effective way to go forwards if you are not wanting to spend too much more on him. Others have given options on that. I personally have used a few of them and found GastroMend by SynNutra to work extremely well and is quite a bit cheaper than the others. I don’t have any personal experience with Lyme disease in horses so can’t offer any advice there, but seems that many others suggested it so maybe something to look into. I would still consider trying MagRestore, just to help him cope with the stress right now, again would be a cost effective way to help him right now.
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I woyld consider a gastroscope. My horse never showed obvious signs of ulcers. He aosi has a huge splint on a leg he’s never taken a lame step on.
His splint actually has gone back down to normal. Like you literally cannot even feel it anymore, let alone see it.
We’re probably going to scope (gastroscopy) first. I don’t like medicating without a known reason especially with ulcers.
Em
If you got on him and only walked around the ring, what would he do? Boring as hell I know but just walking, no trotting and no cantering/jumping. Does he eventually settle? I know it goes against the grain which is to go go go for a horse with a ton of energy but maybe the opposite approach might help?
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An acid reducer is not a drastic medication and can give this horse instant relief if ulcers are the cause of his extreme behavior. If it doesn’t make any difference in 3 days, discontinue it. There are no side effects, no downside, and the possibility of a considerable upside. Many, if not most vets, would agree that a short trial is in the best interest of the horse, especially if your plan is to scope at some point in the near future. It is not fair to the animal to put this off.
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I have a horse with a left home stifle issue, sonof course that’s what I’m seeing. But when your guy is playing in the pasture, and esp. when his hind end slips, he does seem to snatch it up when I’d expect him to load it. Mine looked sound at liberty too, apart from swapping leads behind at the canter to corner. I can pm you a video of that if you want to see it.
The left hind looks off under saddle to me too, but there could be something else causing the behavioral issues. Looks like pain regardless, not just high spirits.
OK, spent morning coffee time watching this, twice. Tried to just watch without thinking about where you thought there might be something, which was easy since when I enlarge for viewing the counter vanishes. It’s tough because it’s subtle, there’s no bad step or anything and he wants to stand square when he stops. I looked back at a couple of the other vids too. But I think I see something to help you narrow things down. No lame step or anything…that would be too easy…
This horse tries to avoid using his left hind. Most obvious at the canter on the right lead. When you ride him, he almost gets stuck tracking right, just doesn’t come forward. At liberty he usually picks left lead, if he starts right he doesn’t go very far before stopping or switching. The left hind hits the ground alone and powers the horse on the right lead, shares the job with the right front when on the left lead. So that observation is worth noting.
Interesting that you noted something at 7:40, around there, as he starts to tire, he stops off the right lead in the corner and he cocks a hind foot up for a bit longer then normal, and it’s the left. And right before he picks up a right lead on the short side of the arena but swaps behind to cross canter a sharp right turn on the right lead in front and left lead behind so the left hind doesn’t have to bear the weight alone, awkward as that is on a sharp corner. That’s unusual.
Couple of other times he’ll pick up right, acts like he wants to go but drop it as soon as he takes a couple of strides with that left hind carrying the weight alone. And when he drops out, he stops, he doesn’t go to the fresh horse bouncy trot like he does off the left lead. And he rears off the right lead after taking a canter stride or two. I distinctly remember in the pasture video, he was rearing off a right lead right but don’t remember if that was exclusively off the right or he did it off both.
Ill leave it to you to look back at your vids and see if that’s new as well as track what he does on which lead and which lead he is more to stall on, likely to swap off of or cross canter. Yeah, most low mileage types are stronger to the right and they get stupid running around in the field but…this seems consistent and part of a pattern based on what I have seen of him.
I’d love to see him trot away on a straight line, that can tell you if it’s higher up. I suspect it might be unless it’s an old hind suspensory, knew somebody who spent a year and several thousand in diagnostics on a horse that would dramatically misbehave and stall. Finally put together it was always off the same lead, it would not take that lead often or for long at liberty and it was finally found in that outside hind on the opposite canter lead. Probably the third time they US it, with a digital consult from a leading specialist. Been there a long time, regular work over time aggravated it enough it started showing up and it got worse as time went on.
Not saying that’s what’s going on, all I’m saying is he’s not wanting to use that left hind.
Good luck trying to figure that one out. Kind of a nice guy, nice type.
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OP I have a question for you…which foot had the abscess from hell and what leg was the splint on?
Wondering if he did more then get a puncture wound in the right stifle area when he tried to self destruct without wintnesses, maybe wrenched SI, hip, maybe even cracked pelvis on his left side or something falling down or struggling to free his leg from whatever he tripped over or got himself hung up in/on. You might have some resulting compensatory stuff going on and, I know you are a sharp observer and caught a condition drop many would miss, maybe that condition drop is due to chronic discomfort. Bute test wouldn’t necessarily crack that code over such a large area as opposed to a single leg lower down.
And that would get better with rest but bother him again as the work level picks up accounting for crapping out every time you increase the workload in preparation for something as well as a marked difference in ability to track up between earlier videos and the current ones as he has gotten more work put into him.
Its a theory.
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I didn’t read all the suggestions but I had one like that once, down to the better when I got him then devolving over the years. Mine would also randomly EXPLODE. He also did the curl/jig/half canter during the trot. Mine looked sound most of the time, though it was hard to tell sometimes he was so irregular. My saddle fit great and his back palpated great, but it was kissing spines in the end.
Yours looks slightly off in various places all around but kissing spines lameness can seem to travel, I think, as they try to find a comfortable way to go.
I retired mine. Honestly, it was so frustrating that he put me off riding a bit as every ride was a borderline scary experience. This is a horse that had previously been lovely up to 3’6 and 2nd level dressage, a year or two off the track. five years later it was like that he had no training at all.
I am having a lot more fun at the barn without the guilt of feeling like I ought to ride that horse but didn’t want to.
Best of luck. FWIW, I think you can sink a LOT of money into a horse with these kinds of issues and still have a mess on your hands. I know I did. I wouldn’t think badly of you for putting him down. I sunk a decade and God knows how much money into mine. I kind of regret losing those years now. Every now and then I’d have a good ride so I kept stringing it along thinking it would improve with work and more vet intervention. It didn’t.
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Definitely ulcers, and likely EPM (they go together). Kissing spine also accounts for random hind end issues. A punctured joint is not likely to heal 100% and will probably require routine injections. My only other thought is to x-ray the front feet. He shuffles a lot at the walk (which could be EPM) which could indicate a coffin bone issue which equals the head tossing and resistance to forward movement as well as bucking. It can be a vicious cycle. The front feet hurt which causes ulcers which allows the EPM bug past the blood brain barrier which leads to neuro symptoms like lead swapping, shortness of stride, head tossing and not knowing where the feet are going which leads to stress which leads to ulcers and the cycle continues. Just my two cents from someone who has had the ulcer EPM fiasco.
If this was my horse, I’d be most concerned about his back. The difference in being under tack (even on the lunge without a rider) and at liberty is huge. Maybe it’s an easier fix like a different saddle, some body work, some time to relax. Maybe it is in fact kissing spines or something else physically wrong with his back. X-rays aren’t terribly expensive (at least compared to a bone scan). The fact that he gets upset on landing from jumps, right after he extends his hind end and compresses the spinous processes in his back, is what most makes me wonder about KS.
Do I think he could have ulcers? Sure. Most horses do. Do I think he’s NQR behind? Sure. He’s weak, he’s not using himself well (protecting his back), he was out of work for a while. Maybe it’s leftover from his prior stifle injury, maybe his stifles are weak and sore or maybe his SI needs some help. But all of those things are secondary issues at this point. Yes I would probably scope him at the same time as you check out his back, because he should get treated for ulcers if he has them, regardless of what else is going on. But his back would be my priority.
You said you’ve done lameness exams, but did you do any diagnostics? Any x-rays, ultrasounds, or blocks that might at least rule out anything?
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Timeline to help clarify:
2013 April 15 Stifle puncture Right hind. Pics here: (not that gross) http://s103.photobucket.com/user/Xctrygirl/library/Yardsale%20on%20Wheels?sort=2&page=1
2013 July 7 turned out again. Slow work for a few months
2013 November first show back
2014 7/30 Abscess.That one was right front. Vet came and we did xrays.
Video here: https://youtu.be/C-GF21hkHzI This one only lasted 2 weeks.
2014 9/4 - Had a vet call for swelling over his proximal medial radius but is jogging sound. I don’t recall what that was.
2014 9/15 He got a wicked splinter in his leg from hitting a filler box at Boyd’s. It took us a couple days to find it and then it resolved quickly. Video here: https://youtu.be/D_ECFsxWIME
2014 10/14 Abscess started in RF. Vet came
2014 10/29 Re-exam
2014 12/2 - Re-exam… finally sound.
2015 7/15 RF Abscess again. Took xrays. Abscess seen on xray.
2015 9/18 Pasture injury. Xrays taken of left front medial radius
2015 12/29 Pasture injury left hind. Blocked to toe.
I can’t find the splint in his vet history. But I think it was in fall 2015. And that was Left front. I remember it being around the same time as Gin doing the makeover.
It’s really fun to see all the times he and my vet have bonded. I am not brave enough to add up all the charge lines. We really do think of him as the accident prone horse.
Em
To me, the horse looks like he is uncomfortable and is desperately trying to tell that to everyone. It is just a matter of figuring out what that “uncomfortable” is - ill-fitting saddle, soreness, ulcers, etc. I know, easier said than done! 
In my opinion, this horse moves very differently now than he did in the original videos from 4 years ago. Another sign he is uncomfortable.
The first thing I would do is STOP jumping him. If you are already having that much trouble with him on the flat, jumping is not going to help. i.e. if you are dealing with an undiagnosed soreness issue or an ill-fitting saddle, jumping is not going to help things get better. I understand about throwing something else in the mix to try and entertain him and help him through his issues, but how is it currently working for you? He’s still acting out so I would cancel any further over fence or pole work. I would also ditch the side reins until you know for sure you are not dealing with a saddle fit issue or soreness. I am also in agreement about checking for ulcers.
As far as saddle fitting, what has been done? Just one person coming out and checking saddle fit? If it were me, I would try and find a second opinion for saddle fit…and use someone that is highly reputable and been doing saddle fit for a long time. Just like with any profession, there will be poor quality saddle fitters and good quality saddle fitters.
I do not think this is a “time off” issue. The horse is trying to tell you something and it is clear that he is frustrated.
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Em, I don’t think he is sound. I would assume ulcers are secondary to whatever is going on behind. I agree w/ Scruffy, try the Nexium. It’s cheap and effective. I don’t like how he doesn’t want to separate his hinds at the canter, even at liberty. I can’t make up my mind which hind leg it is but it looks up high to me. Both stifles look sore if you ask me but he takes lots of funny steps with the lefy. Good luck and keep us updated, I can see why you want to try for him, he looks really nice.
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