(2021 Update in last post [#159 I think] He's at Peace now) Help needed, horse is clearly miserable and we haven't found why. (Video clips included)

[findeight]

Thanks for the timeline, he hasn’t really had a very long stretch when he wa completely sound.

Couple of thoughts, when looking at the abscess video of him slowly lunging, note how much farther up he tracks then now, even with the abscess.

On the failure to launch over the fence at Boyd’s…which lead is he on? The right. Which hind leg is he going to use more to power off with? That would be the left hind. And he just folds up into the fence at the same point he should be rocking back. Didn’t see any looky sucky back I don’t wanna crap here, he went right to it, just did not rock back and lift. And it was late in the course as he tired.

Earler in the course you git a little objection to collection and head shaking, on the right lead. Looks like he swapped on and off behind while on the right lead before the next fence, hard to see but he might have done it or thought about it for an instant landing on the right too. More bobbles then obvious swaps but it’s there.

No idea if that’s the cause, I can’t tell if a horse has ulcers from watching a video but wouldn’t hurt to treat, though it’s not going to get him wanting to weight that left hind even if it fixes ulcers. KS or some other spinal impingement might be possibilities but, again, can’t tell off a video. My best guess, based on observation of mystery lamness and subtle offness is he hurt himself worse then you knew when he did whatever he did punching a hole in himself and time and work have made it worse.

That crash at Boyds really makes me wonder how much he’s really hurting, you’d think it would hurt worse to go though the filler box then it would to rock back…

You know, TBs get a bad rap for being sensitive cry babies from some, I wonder if he is stoic at heart and trying to carry on…?

I wouldn’t use him right now. And do get somebody to trot him away on hard ground while you watch, really want to see if he’s level across the hips or not. Asymmetrical hip can throw all sorts of compensatory stuff out there to cloud the real cause.

[no.stirrups]

The reason he sometimes goes better after jumping is probably because there is adrenalin released, and adrenalin masks pain. I thought he looked a little funky behind when playing in pasture, but I also thought it might have been just annoyance with the hind leg straps. He looked good at liberty without the blanket, so if I were you I would be focusing on his back. Get a saddle fitter (or a different saddle fitter if you already had one) for a consultation. I still think there is a good chance that could clear him up, but it’s a relatively inexpensive thing to rule out. In general I’m with Manni01 that I wouldn’t be putting a ton into veterinary screenings at this point and that your longe technique needs work (l’m a fan of side reins, but leave them off for now).

[Xctrygirl]

Added Videos for thought:

1. We do have an in hand video from Saturday am.

https://youtu.be/1QUWJPn4GPQ

2. Back when I first met and took him on trial he was slightly off. We took him on trial so that we could get him trimmed (Owner hadn’t had him done in 14 weeks due to her farrier having torn an ACL.) and do our own evaluation with my vet. Remember that the stifle injury precluded a full ppe but we did do some flexions after he was trimmed and so while he was freshly injured I did have my vet take xrays of the two areas we’d seen mildly reactive. Nothing was found on xrays in those places.

This is one of the first videos of him: https://youtu.be/jQvECf7ajqY

[abrant]

So I’m just going to wander in from a completely different direction.

I have a 15 year old thoroughbred gelding I’ve had for 6 years and I’ve known him since he was 2. He was a stakes winning racehorse, my amateur local fun show horse, and a A circuit hunter.

At this point in his life, his body is a hot mess. He’s been pretty much retired for 4 years and after lots of $$$ and hunting his primary diagnosis is arthritic changes where the collateral ligament passes over the fetlock joint which causes gait changes which pretty much screws up his entire body and makes him sore ear to tail.

OsPhos helped and he no longer had inflammation settling in that joint… but he was so frantic about being ridden I never knew what horse I was getting on. We could do a dressage school one day with lateral work and changes and the next he could never settle and dirty drop his shoulder and buck and leave me in the dirt. I declared that he was not happy being ridden and went out and bought myself a pony.

After being one of a string of horses to get cellulitis at a boarding barn, I moved him to a self-care facility and starting this summer, he is out on 15 acres with 10 other horses for the first time in his life. He is pretty much sound with previcox.

I start hoping on him occasionally… When I ride I bring up my three, ride the pony, turn him out, ride the other TB, feed him, ride my TB, then turn out the other TB. I’m at a small private barn and the stalls face into the indoor. He’s like a packer short stirrup horse this fall, I’m literally jumping him without reins and stirrups teaching myself to keep myself together when I jump the green one.

One day I decide the other TB needs a day off, so I bring up the pony and my TB. Ride the pony and he hates to be stalled so he goes back out then I go to get on my TB. Terror. Refuse to go forward, vocalizing, balking, bucking. Every trick he knows. I finally quit for the day when he takes off bucking and almost loses me. Meh, I’m 35 I don’t need that crap.

2 days later, my barn owner rides the other TB and I ride him and we have a completely pleasant jump school without putting a foot wrong.

This horse has been kind of a pill his entire life. He’s gotten away with it more than most because he’s really personable and quite talented. However, in my position now looking back most of his problems have always been one of two things:

1. Not enough turnout.
2. Being herd sour.

Most horses are a little herd sour but get over it as their training builds confidence in themselves and you. I went through it with the other TB at the barn. First cross country school out by himself was a little rough and we haven’t looked back since. But this one, I don’t think his brain his wired that way. At his age and resume, he doesn’t owe the world a damn thing so I just shrug and figure it’s not that hard for me to have another horse in the barn or ring when I ride him.

Just throwing that out there. There are 8 million things that can go wrong with a horse but sometimes the worst thing is that they’re a horse in the first place

[ActNatural]

I thought about this during my morning meditation. Some ideas:

​​​​​​Given the very understandable reality of money issues, I’d stop riding him, turn him out 24/7 (motion is lotion), treat for ulcers, have his back/saddle checked one more time, check for kissing spine, flex tests, test for Lyme.

After a month assuming all those things are negative, I’d start him over. He’s not the horse you once had and I think you need to forget how great he once was and pretend he’s a new horse with new goals. Start over. Treat him how you would a new, green horse. Can you ground drive/long line him? Do it all over the farm. Forget jumping, forget side reins. I think he’s stressed and he’s over faced right now. I totally understand he used to do all these things but for some reason, his brain/body can’t handle it. Back up and be patient. Expect calm and relaxation at every single level before introducing anything new (ground work, long lining, lunging, mounting, walking, trotting, cantering, poles, jumps)-a very simplistic timeline of benchmarks

i think if you are still having issues after this, then it’s time to reasse. Time, money, and safety are very real concerns! Euthanasia can be a great gift to horse with pain/behavior issues.

[Xctrygirl]

@ActNatural

I thought about this during my morning meditation. Some ideas:

​​​​​​Given the very understandable reality of money issues, I’d stop riding him, turn him out 24/7 (motion is lotion), treat for ulcers, have his back/saddle checked one more time, check for kissing spine, flex tests, test for Lyme.

After a month assuming all those things are negative, I’d start him over. He’s not the horse you once had and I think you need to forget how great he once was and pretend he’s a new horse with new goals. Start over. Treat him how you would a new, green horse. Can you ground drive/long line him? Do it all over the farm. Forget jumping, forget side reins. I think he’s stressed and he’s over faced right now. I totally understand he used to do all these things but for some reason, his brain/body can’t handle it. Back up and be patient. Expect calm and relaxation at every single level before introducing anything new (ground work, long lining, lunging, mounting, walking, trotting, cantering, poles, jumps)-a very simplistic timeline of benchmarks

i think if you are still having issues after this, then it’s time to reasse. Time, money, and safety are very real concerns! Euthanasia can be a great gift to horse with pain/behavior issues.

Ok just to clarify on a couple points…

While I am trying to have him in ‘more’ work he’s still only getting worked realistically 4 days a week, if I’m lucky. And none of those 4 days are hard hard work. I push and a bit and relent a lot because I know he isn’t that fit. He’s not over worked, even for where he is fitness wise.

He’s never been that great. I love him as a horse of mine but he’s never really been that good at anything. Between the listed soundness disruptions and the mental disintegration…he’s just not a Lad, Gin or any of the others.

Starting over a coming 10 year old who may or may not every really get anywhere is a situation I am not loving the concept of.

Even if I sink the money into diagnosing the problems (Assuming it’s more than just 1 thing) I don’t know how committed I am to being the one to continue to carry him on my bill so to speak.

I’d prefer to find him a better situation, and yes I fully admit to being terrified to put him down. I have a lot of issues (in my own head) with death and such.

Em

[findeight]

I’ll look at these later on. Maybe see something different that might help.

[beau159]

I guess I have a different opinion. You’ve clearly taken very good care of this horse – I don’t think he is lame. I say this in the nicest way possible but I think it is your riding.

Just for simplicity, I’m going to focus on the very first video you posted. Right off the bat, he’s shaking/tossing his head … and you don’t do anything about it. Yes, I agree that there are certain bits that horses simply do not like BUT I still expect a horse to carry said bit because I asked them to. I do think it’s important to find a bit that they like and prefer but I am still going to correct them if they don’t act correctly.

You mentioned in the thread that you’ve gotten into “fights” with the horse in the past. I’m not suggesting to start a fight with the horse, but you also cannot allow him to walk all over you and be a jerk. Of course, you aren’t going to correct a sensitive/defensive horse the same that you would a more mellow one, but they still need to be corrected.

For most of the video, you are also asking him to ride around behind the vertical. I understand that you probably did want to keep him on a tighter rein for your own safety and control, but it’s pissing him off. At 15 seconds into the video, you give him a little correction with your left hand and he THROWS his head into the air. (big over reaction) But then you release him after he shakes his head. Point here is that you are training him to do these things because you released at the wrong time.

He starts a little crowhop at 45 seconds and again you don’t do anything about it and actually let him go back down to a trot (less work). While yes you do need to “ride through” these episodes, his actions can’t go without consequence. No, you don’t need to cowboy him, but you should make him do some sort of work and redirect his attention to you, instead of goofing off.

Before the 1 minute mark, his head looks the happiest it’s been so far in the video when you are giving him a little more slack in the reins. Then after the jump, you try to pull his nose behind the vertical again and he has another crowhopping fit, which results in a tug of war and him “winning” by going back down to a trot and not having any ramifications for his actions.

And I’ll stop critiquing there but quite honestly, I think your issues with this horse are just plain and simple training.

I agree that he should be softer to your hands and give his nose to you when you ask, but I don’t see any consistency with pressure-release from you during that particular video that it makes perfect sense on why he fights you. I think he’s spoiled and he’s learned a lot of bad habits. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him. (Looks beautiful and relaxed and happy when moving at liberty.)

So there’s my two cents. From one outside person watching one video of you riding this horse. Of course, take it with a grain of salt but something to consider anyway.

[Xctrygirl]

@beau159

I guess I have a different opinion. You’ve clearly taken very good care of this horse – I don’t think he is lame. I say this in the nicest way possible but I think it is your riding.

Just for simplicity, I’m going to focus on the very first video you posted. Right off the bat, he’s shaking/tossing his head … and you don’t do anything about it. Yes, I agree that there are certain bits that horses simply do not like BUT I still expect a horse to carry said bit because I asked them to. I do think it’s important to find a bit that they like and prefer but I am still going to correct them if they don’t act correctly.

You mentioned in the thread that you’ve gotten into “fights” with the horse in the past. I’m not suggesting to start a fight with the horse, but you also cannot allow him to walk all over you and be a jerk. Of course, you aren’t going to correct a sensitive/defensive horse the same that you would a more mellow one, but they still need to be corrected.

For most of the video, you are also asking him to ride around behind the vertical. I understand that you probably did want to keep him on a tighter rein for your own safety and control, but it’s pissing him off. At 15 seconds into the video, you give him a little correction with your left hand and he THROWS his head into the air. (big over reaction) But then you release him after he shakes his head. Point here is that you are training him to do these things because you released at the wrong time.

He starts a little crowhop at 45 seconds and again you don’t do anything about it and actually let him go back down to a trot (less work). While yes you do need to “ride through” these episodes, his actions can’t go without consequence. No, you don’t need to cowboy him, but you should make him do some sort of work and redirect his attention to you, instead of goofing off.

Before the 1 minute mark, his head looks the happiest it’s been so far in the video when you are giving him a little more slack in the reins. Then after the jump, you try to pull his nose behind the vertical again and he has another crowhopping fit, which results in a tug of war and him “winning” by going back down to a trot and not having any ramifications for his actions.

And I’ll stop critiquing there but quite honestly, I think your issues with this horse are just plain and simple training.

I agree that he should be softer to your hands and give his nose to you when you ask, but I don’t see any consistency with pressure-release from you during that particular video that it makes perfect sense on why he fights you. I think he’s spoiled and he’s learned a lot of bad habits. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him. (Looks beautiful and relaxed and happy when moving at liberty.)

So there’s my two cents. From one outside person watching one video of you riding this horse. Of course, take it with a grain of salt but something to consider anyway.

This may come off as defensive which I don’t intend to be but my primary goals for Lunar are as follows:

1. Make sure he’s not miserable and do what I can to make him comfortable

2. Find him a new home.

Why? Because I know enough to know that he needs a shot with someone else who might have a blank slate and ride him just enough differently from me that he might be happier.

I am riding the horse underneath me to the best of my abilities. Not saying this rudely but please be my guest if you want to come sit on him. I’m not even saying no one else can ride him. I bet others can and would improve him. That’s why I’m trying so hard to make it so others will come try him. One person has come so far and wouldn’t ride him. No harm no foul but he’s not that easy.

Emily

[beau159]

@Xctrygirl

This may come off as defensive which I don’t intend to be but my primary goals for Lunar are as follows:

1. Make sure he’s not miserable and do what I can to make him comfortable

2. Find him a new home.

Why? Because I know enough to know that he needs a shot with someone else who might have a blank slate and ride him just enough differently from me that he might be happier.

I am riding the horse underneath me to the best of my abilities. Not saying this rudely but please be my guest if you want to come sit on him. I’m not even saying no one else can ride him. I bet others can and would improve him. That’s why I’m trying so hard to make it so others will come try him. One person has come so far and wouldn’t ride him. No harm no foul but he’s not that easy.

Emily

No problem. No defense inferred and none meant to be given. And certainly did not mean to imply he’s easy to fix or ride.

So I suppose the quick answer to your (1) question is that I don’t think there is anything wrong with him. He’s just green and needs some re-training.

Have you tried marketing him as a green horse that needs work? I know it can be harder to sell a horse that way as you need to find the right person looking for a project.

Any option of sending him to a trainer who can also help market/sell him for you, while working on his re-training?

[Saskatoonian]

Came to see how he was doing - this is so frustrating, and I do think something’s up with him. I was leaning toward ulcers too but also think that he’s not really moving his back in the jog video and even the liberty one. As for your riding, I had a horse like that, and a friend with opinions like Beau’s watching us one day. She gave me the stock - and normally spot on, like Beau’s - advice (more leg! just go forward!) and let me tell you, when I did (hey, I’ll give it a shot), the resulting explosion dispelled any doubts she had. She didn’t get on him either. Thought you gave him quite a tactful ride.

[Synthesis]

Emily,
I watched those videos, and looks like I’m riding one that’s similar right now. I get the challenge because my draft cross used to be much like this and I’m riding an OTTB with similar tendencies.

For what its worth? I think you were doing a tactful job and I would have gotten on him that day. I saw high, tight, and opinionated but not dangerous. I would not play the hardass card either with a horse that brings its ‘A’ game to a fight. I don’t fight fire with fire, I become water on a stone and literally bore them into behaving. I suspect you were trying to do that with an audience, which is super tough because now you have a timeline.

Ask, ask, ask, ask without escalating until you get the correct response and throw a party. Not many have the combination of the patience, skill set and time anymore for this approach. It works but its hard not to get suckered into the fight and the adrenaline game.

[fordtraktor]

Em, I don’t think it is your riding. You are being tactful there. Sitting on a powder keg like that is a delicate balance. You push them too hard, or really get after them for relatively minor cavorts, and they can blow up and be legitimately dangerous. Mine would completely meltdown if anyone got after him like beau describes. Plus, he’s obviously off somewhere, it isn’t fair to be hard on them when they are in pain IMO.

I rode mine like Synthesis describes always, and we made a lot of progress for a few years, until it all unraveled. My riding didn’t change, the horse’s pain level did. It was so subtle it took a LONG time and $$$ to figure out, though.

[Backstage]

@Xctrygirl

Starting over a coming 10 year old who may or may not every really get anywhere is a situation I am not loving the concept of.

Even if I sink the money into diagnosing the problems (Assuming it’s more than just 1 thing) I don’t know how committed I am to being the one to continue to carry him on my bill so to speak.

I’d prefer to find him a better situation, and yes I fully admit to being terrified to put him down. I have a lot of issues (in my own head) with death and such.

Em

I get that. I really do. But I do agree with that poster’s POV - he needs the potential lameness issues investigated/treated and then he needs a bit of a restart. At this point, he likely has a lot of baggage under saddle for a variety of reasons - inconsistent work, physical issues, potential saddle fit issues, etc. Once the physically issues are investigated/resolved, a re-start at his own pace (which may ultimately be quite quick) is the right solution in my book.

That doesn’t, however, mean that you need to be the person who does all that work from start to finish. Personally, I would spend the money investigating the physical issues as I would feel responsible for trying to set him up for success, and then find him a new home. May need to put 30 days training on him to get him re-started so potential buyers can sit on him. Set him up for success as much as possible, and then let him go. Even if you could find him a home as-is right now, you would not be setting him up for success - the physical issues are likely to go without investigation unless you know the buyer well and they state otherwise.

If the physical issues are significant, you can then consider whether euthanasia is an option once you have more information. If resolving the physical issues + some groundwork/re-start still seems to mean having a horse that doesn’t handle the stress of work, then you can consider whether euthanasia is an option.

[Darkwave]

I have nothing constructive to add here, but…

OP, you are a good egg for working so hard to fix this issue, and for always acting in the best interests of this horse. He got lucky when you picked him up.

[bdj]

Em, my opinion is worth pretty much nothing in this discussion, but in the liberty video, I totally agree with findeight - he looks like he doesn’t want to load that left hind - starting right around the 8:10 mark (as he’s trotting out of the corner, down the short side) was where I particularly noticed it.

I know you’ll do what’s best for him, and I wish you all the luck in sorting that out, whatever it ends up being.

[StormyDay]

I’ve already added my 2c here, but at this point if you can afford to do it, after you see if you can find a pain issue, you might want to just send him away to get sold. Once a horse behaves like that the trust gets broken and it’s not fun at all anymore. I’ve been in a similar situation OP.

[Xctrygirl]

UPdate… Lunar is coming to work (NBC) tonight for his gastroscopy tomorrow.

I figured the weather sucked and one less stall to muck for the overnight is never a bad idea. LOL.

Em

[IPEsq]

Just watched the new jog video. While the video angle isn’t the best, I agree left hind is not sound. It looks like you got him going pretty well when you had that wreck at the culvert wall. He was tracking his feet better in canter and using his back much better. I don’t know the cause of why he’s not doing that now, but he is not comfortable with or without a rider. And yeah, I am going through some of the same stuff and my horse is a powder keg too who will bring guns to a knife fight, so I do not blame you for sitting still and trying to wait him out. I don’t really think you should ride anymore, though, until you figure out the lameness (and possibly ulcer angle).

[vineyridge]

How is he in ground driving? You can even jump them ground driving with and without saddle and see if that makes any difference.