(2021 Update in last post [#159 I think] He's at Peace now) Help needed, horse is clearly miserable and we haven't found why. (Video clips included)

Good luck at the clinic. For the record I do not think it is your riding at all. In fact you look so skilled and experienced my only worry watching the videos was that this horse could hurt or discourage you from the many other horses in the future who would benefit from your talents. The OTTBs of the world need you!

I’d put a limit - time and financial - on throwing everything you can to possible help at him. Evaluate when time and budget are up, make a decision and don’t look back. Which is basically what it sounds like you intend to do, just wanted to pipe in with a bit of support FWIW. Best of luck.

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FWIT, My boy with the L hind problem had full egg bar shoes put on yesterday and he is moving better than he has in months. He finally has the stability his suspensory needs. ---- I have been asking my farrier to try egg bar or shoes with trailers for months, but I got poo-poohed. Now that he can stant with a feeling of security, he is a much happier camper.

I don’t think it was meant in a bad way. You played the choices for him pretty open. No real expensive treatments because he is a rather cheap sales horse and even considering the possibility of putting him down. I am sure you would hate that and I think it is amazing how much thought you put into him and I also think that you take great care of him. He looks so much better now then before.

But I still think this specific horse needs a different approach. When you lead him he walks very nice. When you ride him he jumps around… Somehow the communication between both of you is broken… Whatever it was it needs to be fixed… Thats why I recommended my way of lunging…
And by the way I recommended it for a reason… It worked for me in the past, so I know it works…

Oh and by the way on the recent video he looks a bit off but on the old video as well… Maybe his way of moving…

But to me you don’t really have that many choices… Check him for ulcers, check the saddle, change the way you train him, but thats about it… Everything else looks about perfect. And riding 4 times a week should really be enough. And you need to change the way you train him because otherwise nobody will take him…It sounds harsh but its reality…

And I am sorry to write this, but I am not a fan of all these treatments. As long as the horse is not visibly lame after you work him it is probably something else… Thats my honest opinion. And you cannot really give him away in this condition. Where will he end up??? Then it might really be nicer to put him down. So IMO you don’t have that many choices. You are a good rider, but for some horses its a tiny little detail done in a wrong way which causes problems… I have been sitting on huge horses who threatened to rear if I moved any part of my body… I hate that but there is nobody who rides the horses for me and I don’t believe in medication… So far I solved really all the problems through a training approach… One of my worst problems was solved by a nice dutch rider who was visiting and who gave me just a little tip for that situation… And I have used it ever since. Works beautifully…
And you will see, once you get through to your horse and tell him that everything is ok but he has to do what you want, everything will look easy… He is a nice horse!!

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OK, I watched the newly posted in hand and under saddle some time back before the stifle injury videos.

To my aging eyes, his left hip is slightly lower then his right when he weights it in tne earlier under saddle video before the stifle injury, it is more pronounced in the later, in hand video.

To me,that says he came to you with it and it’s likely in tne SI ot pelvic region. He’s very slightly dropping from the left hip as he pushes off, he’s gotten a bit more pronounced since you got him.

But I’m nowhere as good with digital images as some who can pronounce it training and advise they could ride it better then OP or simply treating for ulcers will fix it. Getting too old, I guess. All I can see is that very slightly lower left hip that’s gotten lower since OP got him, although still subtle, it’s still there there and matches the right lead issues from not wanting to load the left hind.

And I just see a coiled up, uncomfortable horse I don’t want to be the short fuse that sets it off riding it, another example of too old to play that game if wanting to hop on and show OP she can fix it, just by changing her riding. I guess.

Hes not sound, hasn’t been sound since OP got him. Not in an easily accessed area for diagnostics either. Wonder if some realize what those cost in an uninsured horse, talking a grand or more, easy to say get them when you aren’t signing the check.

Sorry Em, hope you get some answers even if you don’t get a solution.

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I agree very much with you. But I am not sure whether the dropping of the hips is the cause for these problems right now… Because I also think they were there from the beginning. And I guess it is about his only chance that changing the training will solve these problems…

Hi again!

I’m in the camp that I’m not convinced he’s lame.

Also, you’re a lovely rider. I highly doubt it’s your riding. Could you be the wrong rider for this horse? Maybe? But that’s a huge maybe.

How is he in the crossties tacking up? Standing with his lip hanging or jigging nervously? How is he to lead to the ring? How is he hand walking in the ring? How is he for mounting? If you only got on and walked, would he settle and relax?

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More questions:

Does he ground drive? What’s his behavior doing that? What about setting up a free jump shoot and see what he looks like jumping without a rider?

What’s his turnout situation?

Do you know anything about his past prior to you getting him?

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No opinion regarding what you are going through, but I remember when you got this horse and I fell in love with him because of his name. Sorry about all of the problems you are having, and I really hope that you can get some answers and find out what’s going on. I was actually thinking about him the other day and wondering what had happened to him, and I’m so sorry that you are having so much trouble with him. I hope that it works out that you can find a special person for him. Keep us notified.

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Ok he’s at New Bolton for the night.

To explain my thinking, I’m starting with the ulcer investigation because I am aware of horses that had ulcers that affected their movement with the pain of ulcers. Thus a lameness exam at this moment could be not ideal.

If he is found to have them he will likely have 30 days of gastro gard and rest. If he doesn’t have them we’ll move onto lameness exams. Probably not tomorrow but when we can schedule it.

@betonbill He really is a good boy and I so appreciated all the folks who became fans of his during his injury and rehab. I hope we can make him better.

Emily

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:frowning:

I don’t think he looks sound. I don’t think he looks 100% in any of the videos but to me the worst ones are when someone came to try him (of course). He never.goes.forward. Never, never, not ever. There are moments that are less backward but none that are ever forward. And that to me, along with how short strided he seems now, says that the problem is at least in part physical. Because a capable, sound bad attitude horse that wants you off will at some point try forward in some manner as an evasion.

So in light of knowing what we know about the situation, here’s my free advice worth what you paid if I was in your shoes… and by the way the “you” in the below advices doesn’t have to be you personally. If you can safely rehome him, someone else could do it…

He’s there at NB for the scope, so scope and treat as necessary.

If he has ulcers, restart him like it was FROM SCRATCH (I mean like he’s not even saddle broke) after that.

If he doesn’t have ulcers, take him home. Start him on previcox. Don’t do a thing until he’s been on it a solid week.

In the meantime have the saddle checked (I don’t think that has to be necessarily a massive outlay of money i.e. a new french saddle. I will let you try all of my “extras” and you can borrow them if one fits. Or the saddle fitter might be able to find something inexpensive for you to use instead. I mean a real saddle fitter not a brand rep, but you know that.

After a week on the previcox, have someone jog him and video it. And lunge him and video it. Let’s see if he’s more even behind and at all more forward. That would be the signal that there is something physical and pain related.

And then from there it could go 2 ways depending on what you feel up to doing-- more diagnostics or else continue with the previcox and try restarting him from scratch hoping that whatever it is, between the saddle fit and the NSAID it’ll be comfortable enough for him.

I don’t think it’s your riding. I don’t think it’s entirely just resistance. That horse doesn’t look sound to me.

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I have nothing constructive to add but I just want to express appreciation for the level of expertise (not to mention willingness to help) of posters on this board. It is truly impressive and very educational for those of us who are reading. Xcountrygirl, I wish you luck with your horse. At least you have a lot of support and kindness from folks on this board. Please update us when you have further information.

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Just my two little pennies: ulcers (check), Lyme titer, x-ray back.

Lyme does weird things to horses. It’s inexpensive enough to rule out.

X-ray the back before mucking around with different saddles. Some horse tolerate KS to a degree, others just don’t. A friend had a wonderful OTTB, ammy friendly, carried the same pace jumping in the ring and XC, lovely to be around. One summer he got progressively more sour-tempered, angry, off, and stopped jumping. Turned out he had severe kissing spines. The best fitting saddle and most tactful riding in the world was not going to make him comfortable, sadly.

I think I would consider comparing the cost of a full lameness work-up to a bone scan. How would blocking and x-raying multiple potential hot spots stack up to the scan? I haven’t had to pursue either route personally, I just know both run from a lot to A LOT of money. I hate having to put a price limit on a horse’s wellbeing, but it is reality. Good luck!

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Ehh, yes and no. I do not agree with you that it is usually training because in my experience it CAN be a health problem and is more likely to be that. There are tons of threads on here as examples. People have been able to change how their horse goes by diagnosing ulcers, thin soles, kissing spine, SI problems, arthritis, neuro issues, etc.

If you “train” a horse through it, you risk losing communication with the horse because you can instill that, “you do this, there are no options, and pain doesn’t matter” you get a submissive and stoic horse that could break down on you later due to not addressing the initial underlying health problems.

Somewhat of a tangent: I don’t know what part of Germany you are from, but I’ve done some horse keeping there. It did seem that Germans are less into joint injections, ulcer treatments, metabolic issues and other ailments and more into natural remedies and training. Which, I’ve seen fail more than once, but could have been pure circumstances. Granted, I was in a rural area, but I felt like that area was behind the curve. On the other hand, maybe us British folk and Americans are more “alarmist” and sensitive to things. Could be cultural. I’ve only experienced boarding in the UK, Germany, Spain, Holland, and NE USA, but I’ve noted differences. Maybe another topic for another day. Maybe totally unrelated to your nationality, but I could see some parallels, maybe coincidence.

Back to the OP, the other thing to consider is that stifle injuries and weakness take a long, slow, and diligent rehab. So maybe it never got the strength back correctly and now the body compensated elsewhere and the soreness spreads. Just another theory to add to the never ending list! Best of luck with scoping and I’m curious to hear about the results.

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Maybe it is a cultural thing. And Yes I do agree with you in a way as well… BUT there are some more things to that philosophy… First of all I look at myself… Believe me I have had some injuries and my personal experience is if I work hard every day I am able to ignore them. I feel less pain if I am in good shape because of all my muscles my body can compensate. If I just stay immobile, i feel misarable… Yes i know there might be the day when its over, but I guess everybody has that problem… And I think its the same with horses… They want to be fit and lead an active life and they know exactly that if its not the case it will be over. And these dreaded injections. They are just a great money source for vets I am sorry… They will destroy the joint eventually… I do not believe in them…

And with this horse… I don’t know it and I don’t know whether my approach is the right one. I offered my advice because I really hope this horse will get another chance. And I don’t believe its the fault of the OP. She really did everything for the horse!!! It is a possible approach and really you cannot really loose much at that point and not sure if there are a lot of other options…

And by the way I don’t agree with your statement, If you train your horse that way you risk losing communication. Would I recommend to do international eventing with this horse?? Of course not!!! But if you are able to train it through these issues, maybe it will have some good years with easy work everyday and it will be a happy horse which is appreciated and has a job. It will built muscles around his issues and compensate them better. Isn’t that what we do when we do physical therapy???

This would be my protocol as well. Any change in attitude/rideability and I would check for ulcers and pull lyme titer first. I had a lovely TB gelding that was ridden by my teen (he was boarded and she lessoned with a trainer). One fall he became increasingly more difficult under saddle and OF. We tried different things including saddle fit, dental, trainer riding him etc but the situation didn’t improve. Another pro trainer was at the barn and felt he had EPM so we had him tested for that and lyme. EPM was negative but his lyme titer was off the charts. 60 days treatment with docy/minocycline and I had my old horse back.

One thing that stood out to me in the videos was his stumbling/tripping. This was one of the things that my gelding did.

You always do what’s best for your animals and I know the frustration you’re feeling in this situation. Good luck.

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you really can’t train a horse that is hurting. I think OP’s horse is hurting. don’t think it’s because of her riding - actually, really doubt it - don’t think it’s cause of her management or her training… this horse is saying “ouch” every stride. some breeds are different but TBs in general are not inherently lazy, and don’t put up a fight for no reason.

the thing about pushing a horse through a possible physical issue is that the horse becomes defensive to human contact, resistant to new training, and sullen in his work. why wouldn’t he? depending on the personality type you can get “difficult/reluctant” undersaddle to downright “violent”. then that horse is passed from home to home and hand to hand, misunderstood, labeled dangerous, and usually does not end in a good situation for the horse.

the better thing to do is never teach the horse that working with humans are unpleasant.

i really hope that people don’t look at a horse like this and think it’s training. he’s clearly unsound, and he’s clearly unhappy. if people can’t tell he isn’t sound, they need to ask a vet or a friend with a good eye to help them train their eye so they can do right by future horses that may or may not be in this horse’s position.

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Well I gave my opinion and I will stay out from now on. And I don’t believe in pushing a horse through something. I believe in consistent Training to help the horse to built up strength. And I also don’t think the Op is a bad rider. And obviously this horse had this whatever it is for years and was able to deal with it. That it is worse now might be caused by several reasons and nobody can tell for sure what the cause is…

Because you are a human, who can adjust your exercises to specific aches and pains you are feeling in the moment, and who has a rational, human thought process and knowledge that the pain is hopefully temporary and in service of a larger goal (fitness, physical therapy, whatever). YOU are in charge of your fitness regimen - not totally submitting to someone else like a horse is. You know specific areas where you need to build strength and you know when pushing through the pain will do more harm than good. It is completely unfair to the animal to apply this same philosophy to them. Horses are at our whims in their fitness routines and unfortunately unable to verbally tell us, “Hey, this very specific part of my body hurts every time I do this one thing.” They don’t understand, like we do, that “physical therapy” or “building up strength” can be painful - and so, as several people pointed out, working while in pain can lead to a dangerous, unpleasant situation for horse and rider. That’s why the diagnostics and treatments suggested are important.

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I do like the suggestion of a Previcox test after he comes home. Might suggest to start every other day, some of them get really excited if a chronic pain disappears and unlocks all the muscles around. Leave him on it a couple of weeks so it builds up and you can tell if it works or not. Can’t hurt, might help, not expensive, most suffer no side effects…other then feeling too good and overdoing it. Compared to Bute with less effectiveness and more known side effect after prolonged use, it’s a better option for long term use.

Some horses seem to be able to work through some issues, like age related arthritic changes, navicular, old injuries in the lower legs, even non displaced fractures. But, IME, the vague problems originating higher within the body of the horse create more difficulty for the horse to avoid doing what hurts or work around it. And the imaging work required on the body requires a clinic visit and at least standing sedation. Insurance may or may not pay for those diagnostics without a specific, identifiable target, they no longer sign off on a lot of that stuff. Even with some covered, co pays and uncovered additional charges can go over 1k. While it’s possible to negotiate a price or just go to CC, I fear trying to pin a thing like this down would run into a couple grand pretty easy.

And even if identified? Then what?

And that’s exactly why I recommended lunging but I am out