I’m not sure what you mean by this (sorry, I know you’re out and I’m not trying to be combative or rude, just curious). Lunging is still subjecting the horse to a human telling them to work - regardless of what hurts. And lunging can still be dangerous for both horse and human.
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oh man. I feel for you. I have one that is trying me in a similar way. My approach with her is different so with your guy:
- Get the results back for ulcers
- If yes, treat, rest and start him back like he’s never been sat on, from the ground.
- If no- I’d seriously consider back xrays.
- SI is can be difficult to diagnose and treat so depending on Xray and possible lameness exam I’d start him back from the ground up. Ground driving or building fitness, lunging. I have one that has what the vet diagnosed tentatively as SI. We just back up and started from the ground, building her muscles back up evenly etc.
In your position, I’d do what I can without spending a fortune on tons of drugs and treatments (but I like the Previcox or robaxin approach vet approving) if everything comes back negative and do good old fashioned ground up. If you get a hit on the tests then you have a more definitive path on which to start.
All I can really say is I am so sorry you are going through this. One I mentioned above I actually considered and spoke to the vet about putting down due to severe behavior issues and it was a painful discussion. I was so terrified of where she’d end up if I tried to rehome or and didn’t want her to hurt someone. I ended up going a different path training wise with her but if it doesn’t work out (don’t flame me) euthanasia is not ruled out. This is your story so I won’t hijack.
But I feel for you.
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Update:
Pinpoint ulcers (not many) found. Would be considered very mild and we are going to give him GastroGard 1 full tube a day for two weeks and 1/2 tube for another 2 weeks after. The opinions are split whether it would be causing anything outwardly apparent. Now we agree that it’s in the realm of possibilities that it could be, hence the GG.
He’s here all day anyway so we may pull him out later after the sedation wears off and look at his movement for a baseline.
Em
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Think watching him move later today as a baseline would be a great idea. He’s there and so are the vets and techs so why not? They might even be able to pinpoint an area of origin besides just back left hip if they’ve seen something similar.
Have to address something here, a few have mentioned ground driving? Not unless he starts going forward and stops stalling out, wanting to rear and kicking out. If you don’t have a gas pedal, you can’t ground drive, might get run over if they go into reverse, you got no control. Not to mention getting in the way of one of those kick outs.
Lunging or any kind of circles are never good for NQR horses with gait irregularities. Those who have rehabbed suspensories will know about working strait sides only at a trot and walking all corners and counting laps so they don’t do too many corners even walking…for weeks. That seem like years if you are the rehab rider.
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When we rehabbed from the stifle this was what we did to avoid circles and tight shifts of direction.
(Vet ok’ed the neck stretcher at this point to help)
He did ground drive back then a bit but it was not a natural thing for him so we swapped to this way until he was cleared to be sat on.
Em
Not really related to the topic, but I love how many videos the OP has taken over the years. I am constantly reminding myself to take video, but could do it more often. As this thread shows, it is hugely beneficial to have comparison videos from various points in time.
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+10000 and OP, I really appreciate your willingness to share about your horses (not just this one - your others as well, in other threads). I know I’ve learned a lot from your posts and other’s responses to them.
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Agree with Robaxin in addition to the NSAID post-ulcer treatment
Yes, but when you need to work out a diagnosis, sometimes it falls into a “needs must” situation. Usually when I look at a situation like this I find you need to tease out the physical from the mental. Yes, this horse looks ouchy at worst and Not Forward at best so I would assume physical is strongly in play. But like it or not, not all horses (or people) are born with the best work ethic, and bad work ethics meets pain can end up in a badly abused horse… or rider… or both… and you do have to figure out how much of each you are dealing with in order to have a fair shot at treating it.
My youngster who just took the early retirement plan didn’t look exactly like this, he did present a troubling array of symptoms that gradually got worse from age 6 up. They were primarily behavioral in nature so it made it a challenge to clearly define it as… pain? Behavioral? Behavioral as a consequence of pain that I already resolved?
So my sleuth approach was as follows:
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Environmental? He lived in a 100x50 drylot+stall+fan+hay+buddy during day, access to good pasture at night. Horse Nirvana. Probably not a root cause of anything other than good health.
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Ulcers? Scoped him, cleanest stomach ever. A shining testament to the benefits of #1 (I am not in a lyme area, so skipped that test)
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At liberty? Appeared amazingly sound
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Lunge with no tack/equipment - equally sound as at liberty
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Lunge with surcingle - SIGNIFICANT difference, short strided, bronc action, warms out of it but Unhappy Horse (here’s your clue it ain’t the saddle)
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Lunge with pessoa rig - same as above
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lunge with tack (english or western) - same as above, slightly less dramatic reaction. Point of note is that if warmed up and cantering with head at normal position, if raised abruptly, would immediately go full on bronc. Presumably this would happen under tack as well.
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Rode with tack - same as 9, only notable addition is if he warmed up out of symptoms, and stopped working, they could come back (but not always)
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All working tests yielded minimal to no improvement on bute, robaxin or bute+robaxin.
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Chiro work initially yielded impressive results then quickly devolved to no change
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Neuro test? No significant findings, slightly less strong to right tail pull, but all other results negative
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Lameness exam - passed all flexions, no “leg” findings, but distinctly sore to palpation in his mid thoracic region
At one point we then hit him with all the options over 10 days: osphos, C4/5 articular injections, back injections and mesotherapy, followed by rest and slow return to work. Pretty much overnight all symptoms displayed in 4-8 dramatically disappeared, he was back to being trustworthy under tack and while he appeared sound at liberty it was pretty obvious that a lot of his natural suspension had gone away from his gait as well, because, baby, HE WAS BACK.
So you know, it was 100% written in stone at that point that it was all pain, all the time. I was mostly sure, but you get so deep in this shit sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees. That’s where a disciplined approach and journaling your findings goes a long way
Unfortunately all the above treatments had a very short shelf life and symptoms returned with a vengeance. Given the results of that and given all the work narrowing down root cause pain, it is fairly likely that he has some c-7 issues and the mid thoracic pain was a side effect of that issue and there isn’t a lot you can do for that, so like I said, he’s on the early retirement program, living the Thug Life.
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I had a horse who was very tense under saddle. Really struggled with accepting the bit and could be so so good and then we would have days where even walking in a straight line was a fight. I treated him for ulcers. I tried magnesium. I treated him for Lyme. I’m a pretty experienced rider and for over a year I would tell trainer/vets/whoever that I was 1000% sure the problem was in the neck and I could point to where I thought it was.
We did robaxin. We did the SI. We injected hocks. We injected necks. We did everything. Except neck x rays.
When we finally did them, he had an odd deformity on c6 and c7. Exactly where I said whatever it was, would be. Vets at Cornell and Tufts had never seen it before in a horse.
I elected to sell him to a pleasure home where he hacks out with the new owners kid and has never put a foot wrong - because nobody is asking him to do something that hurts his neck. There weren’t treatment options besides injections since nobody had seen it before.
It’s too bad because he had to be one of the most attractive horses I’ve ever seen. Beautifully built, flashy color, and the biggest personality.
Second update.
While not a full lamenss workup he was taken outside and jogged on grass and concrete. On concrete he appeared foot sore up front and left hind lameness (10 points to @findeight !!!) On grass foot soreness up front resolved and left hind stayed prominent.
Docs saying to get gastro gard on board and come back in a while. (Weeks)
Em
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Hey, come on, I saw the left hind too 
I would honestly do the full month of full dose Gastrogard. Even though the ulcers are very mild. My guy (who exhibits some of the same behaviors) is a stuck, rearing lunatic with grade 1 “hmm…maybe I see something over there…” kind of ulcers. Some are just super sensitive I suppose. And for these, it is extremely difficult to do physical therapy exercise with them because it is so hard to communicate to them that if they try this thing that probably hurts now it probably won’t hurt anymore later. Horses in general aren’t really keen on pushing through when being told to do something. They are prey animals after all. But some have more try despite discomfort and others are more reluctant/anxious/afraid/sensitive.
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Well thanks…but I’m not smart, just old and my memory is still good. And once you see that that irregularity you previously did not , you can go back and see it in all the videos to some degree or other, wonder how you missed it. Part of the journey with horses.
Actually this is good, you have a target on where to start now. Not that that’s where you’ll necessarily find the problem but at least it’s a place to start. And lets you avoid putting him in any situation where he’d weight the left hind.
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Honestly for all my experience if it’s not a head bobbing lameness I am pretty unreliable at seeing it. I mean I am getting better but I still stare and wonder and stare a lot. This is why I have so many videos. I record what I can see so I can ask others who have better eyes for it than I do.
I can care for anything and love (to an extent) the normal rehab and care involved with a nqr horse. I am in my realm there. I can feel the tiniest bit of heat coming up in a leg, and I can wrap really well. But seeing a slight lameness is really hard for me. However my horses (and 1 of my dogs) are giving me more practical examples to learn from in 16-17. So yay…more experience.
ETA: Doggie lameness video: https://youtu.be/rPTa_mbBus8
He was fine. He has a rod in one leg and just overdid it.
Em
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Kudos to findeight. Please never leave this board. Your posts are always interesting and clearly expert.
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Thank you for sharing this story. It has been educational to follow. I am not great at seeing little things and had my old country vet out to look at a NQR colt. I worked the horse, he smoked a cigarette and took a phone call. Then he hung up and said ‘you can’t feel THAT?!’ with a chuckle. Right stifle injected, boom, done.
This horse is very lucky to have a really loving and caring owner. Can he wear booties until he gets shoes on front? And how about nsaids for lameness…unless that bothers the ulcers (doesn’t Equioxx get around that?)
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He’s got 4 shoes on. Not sure whats causing the foot soreness. My luck it’ll be the L word
Em
I dunno what’s worse, the L word or the N word (or the dreaded DDFT) or my poor retired guy who has all of that?! UGH
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From my job… L word. By far. The behind the scenes hope and then eventual downhill progression is awful.
Em
