Also people are colored by their own experiences with horses. I was definitely drawn to see the possibility of kissing spines because your recent videos look so much like the horse’s behavior I had with it. If my own horse’s problems had been, say, ulcers, or SI or hocks or whatever, I’m sure I would have tossed those out there first.
I didn’t know where you worked when I posted my suggestion FWIW.
How anyone could NOT pan Applebee’s under ANY set of circumstances is beyond me. It’s all made in the microwave, blah!
I obviously know who you are but I intentionally did not read the other posts about the horse before I looked at the videos. I didn’t remember you even HAD this horse and I certainly didn’t remember his past vet history.
I think it’s pretty obvious in all the more recent ones that he’s not happy/moving short/not moving even/not quite sound. But you’re probably not wrong that we all unconsciously used other details we know to influence our interpretation.
More than knowing about YOU… I think we tend to influence what we see with our OWN experience. I had a horse with back issues and stifle issues. So when I watched the videos that’s where my focus was. Other people also seemed to lean towards their own experience. It’s hard NOT to bring your own past history to the videos, if you had a horse who was short and it was X it’s hard NOT to look harder at X than at A, B, C.
That being said, I think it sounds like you have a reasonable plan so let’s see how it goes. One step at a time, right?
As far as whether the horse is happy moving or not, I think the videos speak for themselves. Especially since you have videos from such a long period of time. We can see things that have changed and worsened and things that were always kind of there.
I have not read the entire thread so please forgive me if I repeat anything.
I have had two different experiences with NQR…
First was an OTTB that must have fallen in the field as one day this lameness showed up. We could never figure it out. Did bone scans and everything sent him to Cornell and they could not figure it out. Long story short since you have all this video contact Hillary Clayton at Univ of Minnesota. She does gait analysis… maybe she could help you…
Next question, Has he been flexed?
I just took my present horse to a clinic for evaluation for pro stride has previously been injected in front left pastern and coffin joint. Well, he had my horse trot away and had me watch his hips. uneven on the left… flexed left hind and sure enough head bobbing lame. After he was blocked 90% better. The front was mild so we were looking at the wrong limb just because of past history.
The sad part is this horse is not a horse you want to money into but you are desperate for answers…I understand.
You could also start all over again. Turn him out for 6 months and do lots of natural horsemanship. Mother nature sometimes can heal what western medicine cannot…
Good luck…
I agree with what others have suggested, to the extent you feel safe…
Other thoughts… Whatever else he is he is way behind the leg, and the reins are holding him round. For whatever reason he really seems to resent the bit. If you feel safe…
2. Lunge without rein attachments and make him go FORWARD, fast trot, and evaluate his soundness. Lunge over cavaletti. Lots of transitions, while FORWARD. What do you see? Video.
Ride in another saddle, big loop in the rein, and kick him forward, fast! Forget jumping, make him MOVE, get the head UP not down. Have someone take video.
Work him HARD as you can for a week or so. It sounds awful but this could accentuate subclinical problems so that you can diagnose.
I appreciate your contribution and ideas but even if you read page 6 and 7 you’d see we are a ways away from your suggestions. Additionally we have done some of the things you’ve suggested but I know 7 pages is hard to read.
If you’d like to read the whole thread and watch all the videos and then comment I’d love to hear any additional thoughts.
Emily
Hi, I did read the whole thread – are you referring to the few lines on post 130 out of 8 pp? I don’t think LH lameness is a great explanation for what is on the video. You do seem very frustrated and a little short with some of the suggestions. Not to worry – no more suggestions from me!
Ok I am frustrated by many things. I never want anyone to censor themselves or feel like I am asking them to be quiet. On the contrary if I couldn’t take it I wouldn’t have posted it to begin with.
So in reply to your comments:
2)Not going to be worked for a few weeks. And that point he’ll get a lameness workup and as others have said circling with these kinds of issues is knot a good idea.
He’s been ridden in many saddles and driven forward. Sadly I don’t always have someone who can video me. If we get back to riding a sound horse then I’m happy to try this. But I think it’s a big if.
We’re not going to be able to try that for a while.
I am not feeling short in my replies but sometimes I am busy and just trying to post something that I want to add to the conversation in the spare mins I have to do so. I apologize if I offended or came across in a different tone.
Emily
Having just spent a year going through something similar and come out the other side. What worked for me was treating for ulcers and changing his feed. He was eating the Purina Ultium and literally lost his mind. I️ don’t know in the end if it was the treating of the ulcers, the change in feed or the combination of the two, but whatever it was, I finally have my horse back.
If the ulcer treatment didn’t work, my next checklist item to explore was EPM.
Best of luck.
Ok I only read the OP’s posts and watched the videos as I didn’t want to be influenced by anyone else’s opinions. I’ll start with I’m so sorry as this is definitely a drastically different horse than the one in the videos from 2015. He is a very unhappy camper under saddle and expressing it in everyway he can. But you know that OP. Will you do an ultrasound of the LH or blocks to determine where the lameness is in the LH after you are satisfied the ulcers are treated? Did the vet think it was coming from the SI joint at all? IMO the overall demeanor of the horse under saddle is not coming from a LH lameness unless that lameness is really from the back somewhere. Without expensive diagnostics I’d be turning him out again and starting him back in the heat of next summer. He seems happy enough outside of work. Is that true? I know this is not what you want to hear but you could run down many rat holes trying to diagnose something that will just require significant time off anyway or retirement. If you have the space and he isn’t costing you an arm and a leg just to keep why not give him yet another chance?
Get a chiropractor to look at his sacrum.
I read the entire thread and watched all the videos.
IMO…
My first impression was a pain issue… something seemed NQR in the way the horse uses his hind end.
The at liberty video caused me to consider a behavioral issue.
Oldest video of horse shows the horse was leaner and had less muscle at that time. Certain sellers have been known to turn out “hot” “difficult” horses 24/7 and lower their feed while keeping them in work. It can have the effect of lowering the horses energy levels, and can result in a horse that appears to have a much mellower temperament. Buyer gets horse home, puts the weight back on the horse, and then they have a firecracker on their hands. It can happen.
OP, I hope you see results from the ulcer treatment.
I’m very reminded of a number of TB’s I’ve worked with over the years who were just “hot and difficult horses”. Some horses that are unknowingly worked with pain issues, may essentially develop a form of “stress disorder” (think Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Horses). The horse learns to associate work with pain. If the pain issue is later resolved, the stress disorder can remain. Some circles may refer to this as a soured horse. Retraining a horse with such a stress disorder, first requires resolution of the stress disorder. If the stress disorder has become deeply imprinted, the horse may never fully recover behaviorally.
The recent vet diagnosis of lameness in the left hind may or may not be the overall cause for this horses behavior.
I hope this horse’s issues are resolved and he may lead a happy life.
But in my career there have been certain horses who never became trustworthy mounts for anyone. The horse I’m thinking of had a reputation of injuring riders, professional riders. In the end a decision was made to put the horse down. The decision was based on preventing anyone in the future from ever becoming injured or worse. If a “dangerous horse” is retired as a pasture pet, and out of the hands of professionals. There will always be an element of uncertainty that years later someone may try to ride the horse again and get hurt. In the end, I personally will always put the welfare of people above that of the horse.
Hope you never have to make that decision OP. Let “your vets” guide you if it comes to it. You are lucky to work with professionals who may provide guidance for you.
My horse went through what alterhorse is referring to. She did have PTSD if there is such a thing for horses. Hoof pain, back pain, and ulcers for over four months and none of us knew until it was too late. After she came back from time off into work she still reacted as if she was in pain and resumed the bad behaviors. It took us a long time to break her of the cycle, but eventually we did manage to convince her it was all over. Once everything is 100% that does not mean things will go back to normal. The horse must be convinced it is safe and no longer hurts, and then things will get better.
I skimmed all the posts and watched videos. Only thing I noticed on video was a tight back and left hind issues. Looked like he was avoiding using his back and not trying to reach under at all, to push off, and carry himself.
If he were mine I would do a few minutes of belly lifts and back massages. Keep it nice and warm and let the muscles loosen up. I would also check for any poll pain and do some poll releases. Especially if he curls.
Left hind is already being addressed, so I wish you luck.
I know you said no work but with his tendency to go feral, I would hand walk him, just asking for walk/halt transitions and just using his brain again. Yield his hind end, walk over a pole or two. Lots of positive interactions to get his mind in the game again.Good grooming paying attention to what he tells you and likes. I used to video tape grooming sessions with horses that were hard to deal with so I could watch their facial expressions and body language and figure out the puzzle of what they liked and didn’t like. Some are very subtle.
Maybe try clicker training.
There is no shame in putting down an unhappy horse that is in constant pain. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Reading this, I second the suggestion of Magrestore. I’ve used it off and on for my mare who frankly he reminds me of in the recent under saddle videos. She is more mature now and has grown out of a lot of that but I absolutely am convinced that she is prone to being low in magnesium although I’ve never had her tested. It’s usually not a complete reversal in bad behavior but when she’s consistently having what I used to term “anxiety attacks” the mag takes the edge off and gives me something to work with. It makes her more comfortable in her own skin.
The other thing I would suggest is making every ride as simple and stress free as possible to the point of absurdity. As in, to start: get on, walk 3 or 4 times around the arena (or until you get a dozen quiet steps if he’s in meltdown mode) and get off. Lots of pats and treats. Next day: repeat, try for more quiet walking. It helped my mare to have things brought back to absolute zero in terms of my expectations for her, because she seemed to be anticipating stress or fear or pain every ride. We never found any obvious pain issues but for whatever reason, she seemed to slowly work/grow out of it to the point that I don’t feel like it’s a factor any more.
Bottom line, unless you find a soundness issue that precludes it. as long as you have him ride very regularly but only for short, easy rides that he can feel good about.
Yeah, just now read the whole thread & watched the videos. That’s great (in a not great way, you know what I mean) that you found lameness since if it’s treatable that might be your whole problem solved or 90% solved.
I still say, particularly after watching the at liberty video, that independent of his pain issues magnesium might help settle his brain and muscles. He looks in all the videos like he works up instead of down, which is certainly understandable when the work is causing pain but at liberty it just seemed like while he was free to move as he wished he “chose” to wind himself up. From what I understand this is typical of a horse deficient in magnesium because their muscles hold so much tension and can’t relax and release the tension easily. As I said before he reminds me very much of my mare who had the same tendency and mag really helped her.
If he were my horse I would add magrestore after the ulcer treatment and any other meds he may end up on are finished to see if it helps him to relax as he learns to not anticipate pain. In the meantime as soon as the vets think it’s ok to have him under saddle at all I would tack up and walk aimlessly in the arena for 5-10 minutes a day, In my experience getting on regularly and doing just a few minutes of absolutely-not-work, but letting him do something good to praise him for is so important with an unhappy horse. (FWIW I think you’re riding him very tactfully and I absolutely know that feeling of explosion imminent if you push the wrong button when you’re trying to smooth his ruffled feathers and not allow him to be a bully).
Carrots and scritches and being told he’s a Very Good Boy for doing any little thing quietly and happily under saddle might help his self confidence a whole lot, and make it easier when he’s physically more ready to do a little actual work.
Just throwing this out there (I haven’t read all the posts). When my horse went lame I threw all the diagnostics at him (he was insured). We blocked the stifle multiple times, at New Bolton as well as with my own UEA vet using the “lameness locator”. Nothing. Bone scan showed nothing. I had Patrick McGraw working on him (he is a well-known bodywork guy specializing in MFR that the OP will know). He always thought it was the stifle. He was present with my vet when we did the lameness locator, which does gait analysis by computer before and after a block. The computer showed nothing, but Patrick thought he saw a lessening of the lameness after the block. Anyway, it did turn out to be the stifle. So you could think about giving Patrick a call? (Of course he isn’t cheap!)
I know it’s a cardinal sin to revive a dead thread, but in this case I thought it was worth chiming in for the epilogue.
“Lunar” was laid to rest today. As he was a part of the UPenn research horses herd, he had a necropsy and will have his remains used in a couple of ongoing studies. My hope is that he will help find answers against horrible diseases that affect all horses.
If there’s anything found in his necropsy I will share it here.
Thank you all for your support and compassion when I was pulling my hair out 3 years ago. Know that he’s at peace now.
Em
Thanks for posting again. I missed this in 2017 and found it very educational to read through now.
If you want, you could edit the title of your thread to call attention to “2020 update in post no. xxx” if you want to head off folks posting before reading to the end.
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