Again, I will state - every horse is different. Some horses are “weird” and a normal looking saddle they will hate - they want the saddle to sit down deeper. My late mare was one of them. Give her standard wither clearance and she was madder than a hornet. She wanted the saddle to sit down further on her traps, which in turn reduced some wither clearance. That’s the way she LIKED it.
As for cantles being raised when a horse is cracking its back over a 1.5m+ fence? Well, yeah. It’s not superglued in place. Here’s Beezie Madden “caring more about her sponsorship than her horse”. Whaaaattttt?
A lot about bit severity is about a riders hands. In a person with bad hands, any bit is severe.
I had a conservation out fox hunting recently. A person commented that my horse must pull terribly since I was riding him in a pelham with two reins. I told her not really but sometimes when excited he would a bit and tug down. I told her 90% of the time the curb rein was slack. The leverage was only there when I needed it and it was for training. Once he stopped the occasional pull/dive he would be out of the pelham.
I pointed out to her that the kimberwick she was riding in was more severe or the common practice of a bit converter on a pelham was more severe because leverage was engaged every time she picked up the reins. I’m training mine out of the pelham while she was putting her horse down the path of more and more leverage. IMHO.
Not addressed at you specifically, but just replying on this topic – I haven’t seen anyone comment that the show jump bit set up that is under critique is NOT what she was using on cross country. Her XC pictures have him in a drop noseband, so there’s no way it was the same set up for XC.
I was curious about Lucinda Green’s recommendation for that specific bitting setup, Googled, and all I could find was this video where around 52:30 she starts talking about Elisa’s bitting choices with another horse. But I guess the two of them have an ongoing relationship. (Video is very long, but Google took me to the end mark.)
Sounds like…not the most opportune venue to try out a new bitting setup, and I suppose it’s back to the drawing board. I suppose after retiring on-course due to rideability issues at one 5* abroad, he didn’t want to do the same at Maryland.
FWIW, I remember Dom Schramm having some rideability issues with Boly B, and they eventually worked through those issues. Although Boly was tense in the dressage, and it’s interesting Woods’ horse is quite good in that first “test” of rideability, but not so much cross-country. So much for dressage being a predictor of an obedient horse!
There is also a responsibility to ride the horse properly cross country. Flat stick doesn’t cut it !
“for him to reach down and stretch and keep his balance is really hard” Cross country is all about balance.
She is referencing her own daughter, Lissa— not Elisa. But yes, Elisa and her dad Rick have a long-standing relationship with Lucinda.
As mentioned above, maybe someone (y’all draw straws or something) should just bypass the assumptions and satisfy all these curiosities by reaching out to Elisa directly, even by PM. She is incredibly accessible.
Also as mentioned above, the configuration used in SJ is clearly not the same one she has on him for XC.
The discussion about Caz’s bit set up was in the comments section on one of her earlier social media posts. I tried to find it for you, but I think it was a while back. It was either Facebook or YouTube. I’ll keep poking around and see if I can find it. But it wasn’t recent, so I may not be able to.
Like @kt said, for those genuinely interested, you could probably just ask her. She’s incredibly gracious and open in responding.
I just don’t agree that riding at 5* makes you the be all end of all horse knowledge and care.
There are a lot of instances in my mind where some top riders actually surprise me with their lack of knowledge or horsemanship in these things. So asking her is going to give her reasoning, but that doesn’t always matter imo. They can reason away anything they like when they want to (this is just general commentary not directed at anyone in particular).
Using reasoning like “he’s just a really strong big horse so we need this” doesn’t satisfy the discussion imo, which is the reasoning she has given before to people when asked on social media.
I think it’s fair. There was a time when her horses were being pushed above their level, repeatedly. Videos are all online to see.
That’s why I prefer to follow and support riders for their horsemanship and involvement with the sport, over whether they are internet famous.
I also don’t really see the commentary as hate as all, it’s just a discussion as it should be as we all need to keep reminding ourselves that Rider Responsibility should be number 1.
Riders who thrust themselves into the public eye should expect to be watched and scrutinized, I don’t think a single person here has been nasty or mean at all.
When I was saddle shopping for a “dressagey” all-purpose saddle, my mare went best, and I was most comfortable, in a borrowed Thorowgood Cob A/P, but we had to set the width so wide that the pommel was sitting on her withers. I passed on it, because I was pretty sure that eventually the pommel on her withers was going to create problems.
Today I learned that we own the same mare! Everyone but the saddle fitter and the horse thinks it sits too low. Finally I argued with the fitter until it sat “normally”. Mare threw a fit. Changed it back. Jumped beautifully. She’ll tell me if she has a problem, and she’ll thank me to shut up and stay out of it unless she does.
Indeed!
Was it a serious error in judgement? Absolutely. Should she have pulled up (or been pulled up)? Of course. However, it’s important to remember at that point the horse had jumped around two Kentuckys and Burghley without issue. Tests after Badminton revealed the horse had developed a deficiency of some kind (magnesium? I don’t remember) and that caused the issue on the day. While she unequivocally made the wrong call, I can see how she’d have some faith in the fitness program that had got them around all those big tracks, and thought she could nurse him home. It was awful to watch, but by all measurable evidence she took the lesson to heart and she’s never done it again. I’m not sure how much more we can ask from human beings than that.
I’m not a bitting expert as I’ve been fortunate to have horses that didn’t require anything special in that area, but I did notice Woods had bit converters and a single rein on his setup. I’ve never ridden in that bit, with or without converters, so admit I only have theoretical knowledge about the action that creates, but it did cross my mind.
You said there were photos of no wither clearance. VERY unlikely at this level. What I said is that some horses don’t want it fit so you can stuff your fist, or a Mac truck, or whatever into the channel. My mare was one of them. She WANTED her saddle to fit low, because that meant that the panels were contacting her traps in a different location.
I swear some people just look for nit picky things. Right right, here’s a 5* horse with a saddle directly on its withers because the rider is too scared to tell the sponsor they need something different. I want some of what you’re having! lordy.
