2024 Olympics - Eventing

[HiJumpGrrl]

Unfortunately there is a distinction here: they chose not to re-present the horse at the jog and took a W. If they had re-presented and he had not passed, it would have been an E and 100 points.

I agree with everyone saying that any kind of substitution needs to be a higher number of penalties. Make it a weird number like 57 so we can discern where it came from. It does not seem that, if a team cannot complete the tests, they should end up with a medal. That takes nothing away from Japan. Those who rode were excellent. It simply means that if the 3 who started can’t finish, they shouldn’t medal. I agree it’s bad luck, but so, to a certain extent, are things like glance-offs, pins, and flags.

[anon40672407]

@paw

I’m also not loving the x-country course - hope it rides better than it looks. From (only) the pictures it’s lovely, but way too many ways a horse can get hung up if it doesn’t completely understand/negotiate the question. I really hope I’m wrong.

Now that it’s done, what do you think? I didn’t see very many hang ups but maybe I missed something?

The coffin complex (what did they call that) seemed pretty troubled by shifting light, and it was really amazing to me how much the course changed over the 4 hours because of the sun moving position, but the horses seemed to navigate it well enough.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Maybe a “simple” rule tweak there would be if you present at the jog at all, you can’t withdraw from the hold - you have to re-present. Because if you present at all, the rider and their team are basically saying that they think the horse is good to go.

[OverandOnward]

@HiJumpGrrl

It does not seem that, if a team cannot complete the tests, they should end up with a medal. That takes nothing away from Japan. Those who rode were excellent. It simply means that if the 3 who started can’t finish, they shouldn’t medal.

My thing is that, under the 4-member team rules, JPN still would have had a chance to win a medal. They didn’t win it because of the 3-member team rules.

As someone who respects and admires the Japanese riders for how long and how hard they have worked and dedicated themselves to this sport, I was thrilled that they medaled. That’s been coming for a long time, and they earned it, IMO.

And I’m sad that some may always question that medal because of the substitution. I don’t think they deserve it any less, they earned the medal. They rode the competition per the rules. They aren’t the only team that substituted.

Under the hypothetical alternate scenario of a 4-member team, they would have had another rider already on the team.

“It simply means that if the 3 who started can’t finish, they shouldn’t medal” is not actually a problem with a 4-member team. They would already have a ‘spare’, as it were, the 4th member, who has done dressage and XC.

And, under the 4-member rules, at the jog they may have re-presented the horse instead of WD, and it may have passed.

I don’t get the logic of 3-member teams with a 4th, a substitute, sitting on the sidelines not doing the phases. The 4-member team with a drop score made far more sense and is consistent with the 3-skill endurance concept of the sport.

[Larksmom]

I don’t know about that. Of course, I don’t have the eye that a judge would, or even the hive here. We have all discussed the jogs when visible, and a lot of people see things I do not see at all.

[Marigold]

@OverandOnward

My thing is that, under the 4-member team rules, JPN still would have had a chance to win a medal. They didn’t win it because of the 3-member team rules.

Agree. If anything, they won it despite the 3-member team rules. Their fourth rider is very strong, as well.

@OverandOnward

As someone who respects and admires the Japanese riders for how long and how hard they have worked and dedicated themselves to this sport, I was thrilled that they medaled. That’s been coming for a long time, and they earned it, IMO.

And I’m sad that some may always question that medal because of the substitution. I don’t think they deserve it any less, they earned the medal. They rode the competition per the rules. They aren’t the only team that substituted.

Under the hypothetical alternate scenario of a 4-member team, they would have had another rider already on the team.

“It simply means that if the 3 who started can’t finish, they shouldn’t medal” is not actually a problem with a 4-member team. They would already have a ‘spare’, as it were, the 4th member, who has done dressage and XC.

And, under the 4-member rules, at the jog they may have re-presented the horse instead of WD, and it may have passed.

Totally agreed.

@OverandOnward

I don’t get the logic of 3-member teams with a 4th, a substitute, sitting on the sidelines not doing the phases. The 4-member team with a drop score made far more sense and is consistent with the 3-skill endurance concept of the sport.

I get the logic (which does not mean that I agree with it). The logic is that there is only so much time in the Olympic calendar, both at the venue and on the broadcast, and so the sport is given a certain number of riders that can compete, maximum. They are also given a mandate to increase the number of flags in the competition. To increase the number of flags without increasing the number of riders, you must reduce the number of riders per flag. I don’t like it any more than I think you do, but that is why there is someone present, horse-inspected, and ready to go that is sitting there not doing anything.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I tend to think that maybe the rule makers who decided to allow substitutions for 20 penalty points (to allow more teams to finish on a number) didn’t forsee any team that had to make a substitution finishing on the podium (unless there was carnage across the board - which they sure don’t want).

The three Japanese riders who started the games had two sub 30 dressage scores and two double clear cross country rounds between them. They took a 20 point penalty for substituting in their reserve rider after one of the starters was withdrawn at the second horse inspection. The two remaining starters and the sub were all clear in the sj with 2 time penalty points between the three of them. They finished with a rail and some time in hand over the next nearest team.

Belgium was the next nearest team in 4th place. They finished with the same three pairs they started with. They had one 40+ dressage score. They had no xc jump penalties, but they all had time. Each of their riders had a rail in SJ.

Which is the better eventing team as a whole? Score says Japan.

Which team’s performance is closer to the traditional ideals of the eventing discipline? Think I’d have to say Belgium who finished with the same three pairs they started with. Does the IOC care about the traditional ideals of the discipline? Nah, don’t think so.

When you look at all the equestrian disciplines in the games, really none of them are “team” sports, and the same is true of other high profile sports - looking at you gymnastics! Other than having a small element of strategy (who is the anchor, who is the pathfinder, adjusting a xc plan based on how the course is riding), the team medals are really not so much about athletic achievement as a team as they are about a national federation’s ability to fund and organize (as well as a healthy dose of good eventing “luck”). I think the eventing team medals definitely reflect the relative health of eventing in the countries that they represent, but again, Japan is something of anomaly. As it currently stands, the Olympic level Japanese riders have to base in England (or another strong eventing country) to get to the upper levels. Will this medal really do much to make eventing a bigger thing in Japan? Dunno. Maybe time will tell.

[axl]

Oh heck, I never thought to turn on the CC! Will definitely do that as I watch replays!

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Looking at the team results a different way, the US was the top team finisher among the teams who had an R on a cross country fence. Of the teams in front of us, the only “letter” penalties were the missed flags for GB and Sweden. Only one team below the US in the standings, Ireland, didn’t have any XC letter penalties.

Just another way at looking at the importance of those clear xc rounds. While I agree on the one hand that the US performance overall was better than the results indicate, on the other hand I can’t help but subtract that 20 from the US results and think “what if”. I am sure I am not the only one, but… that’s eventing.

[Equibrit]

Video of the missed flag incident in the comments of the linked thread;

British Eventing Official

[Carried_Away]

Not to mention that the rider’s team includes a team vet who should be able to help make the call.

[BAC]

@Charlieandme

Random question but do reserve riders who don’t get called up like Yasmin Ingham or the French reserve rider get medals?

I was wondering about that also. I think they should, a similar case just came up in women’s gymnastics. The entire team received gold medals even though one young woman didn’t perform today. But she did perform in the qualifying rounds and was available today in case of injury so she received a gold medal too.

[FitToBeTied]

Maybe I’ve missed it but are there any video’s of Caroline’s penalty around yet?

[FitzE]

@OverandOnward

The announcer crowing that “now they are Olympians!” – I know he had no choice about saying that – but in no way at all have those riders earned the title “Olympians”!

Who are you talking about here, the Japanese team? Regardless of which athletes you’re targeting, what an ignorant and mean-spirited thing to say.

Incredibly harsh - ‘in no way at all are they Olympians’ - said from your couch, of course. If they are there on the team, they are Olympians. I’ll never understand people who claim alternates are not allowed to call themselves Olympians. Or anyone who comes to the games and does not get to compete. The US Women’s Gymnastic Team included their youngest member, Hezly Rivera. Even though they’d made the decision not to have her perform tonight, she was on the podium with her team getting her gold medal - AS SHE SHOULD.

Being an Olympian is making it on your team and then doing exactly what is decided is right for the team on the day and staying positive, supportive, and engaged throughout.

You have no right to disparage anyone who made it to Paris like that. What an ugly, ugly thing to say.

[OverandOnward]

@FitzE

Who are you talking about here, the Japanese team? Regardless of which athletes you’re targeting, what an ignorant and mean-spirited thing to say.

Read what I wrote! Read the post!

There is really no excuse for your response, when simply reading the post would answer your question and nullify your accusation.

[FitzE]

@OverandOnward

I have a real problem with the travesty of individuals riding the SJ who have not ridden either dressage or cross-country.

While alternates / substitutes that would have been the 4th team member do not ride.

What is this, a pony club playground?

Not to mention that it only served to lengthen the time to do all show jumping, which was already interminable under Olympic rules.

The announcer crowing that “now they are Olympians!” – I know he had no choice about saying that – but in no way at all have those riders earned the title “Olympians”!

And especially in eventing , one of the most demanding of all sports! And all they did was jump around a not-too-demanding stadium course? Cheap, cheap, cheap!

The Olympics is selling out. The old values are rapidly diminishing. Not just eventing, but heavily in eventing.

Here’s your whole awful post. I read every mean and petty word of it.

Answer the simple question: what riders did the announcer ‘crow’ about now being Olympians? What riders on which nation’s eventing team do you in your infinite wisdom pronounce

@OverandOnward

in no way at all have those riders earned the title “Olympians”!

What riders who have worked for years if not decades, made all the sacrifices they’ve made, were named to their nation’s team, came prepared and fulfilled all their duties as a team member, and did what was necessary for the team under the rules do you now pronounce

@OverandOnward

Cheap, cheap, cheap!

What an unkind, uninformed, and rather unhinged rant about athletes who, by virtue of being chosen for their team and doing what they were called upon to do when called upon to do it within the current rules and format of the contest are absolutely Olympians.

Damn, that’s some mean-spirited . No wonder so many athletes are having mental health challenges the way armchair nobodies pontificate about who is and is not an Olympian.

Love of dog, this is some nasty nonsense right here.

[OverandOnward]

You do realize that there were riders in show jumping who did not ride any test but show jumping? Did not ride dressage? Did not ride xc?

If you understand that those are the only riders I’m referring to, and if their participation is ok with you, you are welcome to your opinion that it’s ok.

Your initial post – that had far more nastiness in it than mine did – referred to JPN, that I did not refer to and in fact I had posted my admiration of the Japanese riders up-thread. Your initial response didn’t parse what I posted.

I don’t care at all about your nastiness toward me, which is far nastier than anything I posted. You can keep posting it if you like, it isn’t making any impact on me, even with repetition. It’s just reflecting on you.

Your first response that very much misunderstood what I had posted … quoting in case it would be edited later …

@FitzE

Who are you talking about here, the Japanese team? Regardless of which athletes you’re targeting, what an ignorant and mean-spirited thing to say.

Incredibly harsh - ‘in no way at all are they Olympians’ - said from your couch, of course. If they are there on the team, they are Olympians. I’ll never understand people who claim alternates are not allowed to call themselves Olympians. Or anyone who comes to the games and does not get to compete. The US Women’s Gymnastic Team included their youngest member, Hezly Rivera. Even though they’d made the decision not to have her perform tonight, she was on the podium with her team getting her gold medal - AS SHE SHOULD.

Being an Olympian is making it on your team and then doing exactly what is decided is right for the team on the day and staying positive, supportive, and engaged throughout.

You have no right to disparage anyone who made it to Paris like that. What an ugly, ugly thing to say.

I have every right to post any opinion I like. As do you.

[FitzE]

@OverandOnward

Your initial post – that had far more nastiness in it than mine did – referred to JPN,

I specifically asked if you were referring to Japan. You didn’t answer.

@OverandOnward

Your first response that very much misunderstood what I had posted

I didn’t misunderstand your post at all. You have declared some riders ‘in no way earned the title Olympians’.

That’s mean. That’s nasty. That’s ignorant.

They worked, sacrificed, made their team, and participated fully. The were Olympians the minute they arrived in Paris, passed any tests they needed to pass, and participated in their sport. Period.

For you to say any of those people are not Olympians is small and mean. It just is.

Do you not consider Hezly Rivera an Olympian?

You do have a right to your opinion. And I’m telling you it’s an unkind and uninformed opinion.

Just because you have a right to do something (be ignorant and unkind about some athletes) doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

Those people earned their spots on their teams and did what they were asked to do and represented their nations well all within the format and rules of their particular event.

They are Olympians. That’s not my opinion - it’s a fact.

[sami-joe]

Still catching up, not reading this thread so as to avoid spoiler.

Yes, I’m at least a day behind.

Is anyone else stopped dead at the male commentator’s, I know I should know his name, use of the word “debutante”?

[alyssaequestrian]

Too many posts to reply to, but I would agree 20 penalties seems inappropriate for subbing in a horse when one is not able to show jump the following day. Heck even 50 seems more appropriate, but considering when a horse was eliminated from dressage, they were given 100 penalties.

Also agree that it was a bit questionable they let a rider who fell show jump. Even though the horse was fine.

But in team USA news, I also think this was the strongest team we have sent. Disappointing score for the test Caroline gave and the 20 she got, bummer Boyd missed his changes, but really 3 CLASS horses in all 3 phases. Agree Liz solidified her place on the future teams, but excited to see what comes for Diablo as well!