3-way rigging vs. rear cinch?

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7430631]
Sorry to pull up an old thread, but I am wanting to try this with my saddle and am unsure how long of a latigo I should look for?

I ordered the DVD from aboutthehorse.com about saddle fitting and I’m about halfway through at this point (just haven’t had time to sit and watch it) and he said that doing the rigging like what Pocket Pony is describing is as effective as using a rear cinch?[/QUOTE]

If you buy the longest one you can find, you can always trim them. If you want to get really fancy, a $5 edger from Tandy leather will make it look nice again. After edging, dampen the edge with water and rub it with a canvas cloth. Last, rub a cake of beeswax (Tandy also) over it and rub it down again.
Or live with the cut edge lol

[Pocket_Pony]

I think I moved up to a 34" cinch with this rigging, and I got a lovely alpaca cinch that Mac seems to like. Aktill brings up a good point for you to watch out for. The cinch isn’t going to be in the normal girth groove with this kind of rigging. It will be back a little bit, so it is at the mid-point between the two latigo rings.

You can see in this picture of Mac how the rigging is placed. http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s654/PrincessFishCheeks/20140119_113828_zpswl1qlt0w.jpg

Actually, you can’t see the cinch because the fender covers it, but you can see where a normal rigging would put the cinch, which is more forward toward the elbow.

One thing to note - the saddle I have is built for this type of rigging. You can see the rear ring that is angled forward a bit. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be possible with another type of saddle, but just something to consider if you’re shopping for a new saddle.

[froglander]

Not shopping for a new saddle as of yet (and hoping I can make my saddle work), just wanted to give this a try.

Just for the heck of it, saddle and horse in question (pic is from August 2013)

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/attachments/tack-and-equipment/204305d1392397650-how-long-is-a-long-latigo-code_western.jpg

[aktill]

The goal of the v-style rig is to balance the pull on the front and back of the saddle equally (roughly). It’s designed to take a saddle that’s rigged double and minimic the old centerfire position for pull.

A plate rig works a little differently. A plate rig applies support force at the spot where the middle of the “triangle” touches the saddle.

Here’s an example picture: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurBlanket.jpg

I’m building a single-rigged saddle with a plate rig, and you can see both the rough outline of how the plate will go on and the point where the middle touches under the saddle center (thereabouts).

So, if you use a v setup on a saddle like the one above you may end up placing the support force TOO far back. Combine that with the shape of the underline of your horse Froglander, and I’d be nervous to do that without using a breastplate to prevent the cinch scooting too far back.

I don’t honestly think you’ll see too much benefit to doing this on that saddle. If you were rigged double D, it would be different. Might be worth trying, but please do so with a breastplate attached to the cinch.

[katarine]

I am not sure about using a regular rear D for a three way rigging-that D is probably not reinforced behind the cantle for ‘forward’ torque or pull, only downward pull.

Regarding the girth’s length:
If you run the latigo from the rear D to the girth, then up to the front D, then back down to the girth…and the girth is too long…you won’t be able to get it good and snug. I would suggest that there better be at least 7-8-9" from the front D ring to the girth ring, or thereabouts. If it’s only 4" or so…well I hope you’re wearing a helmet. Pocket Pony’s pic is perfect: The whole thing forms a real Y shape…that looks safe and secure. If that left branch of the Y is too stubby and the right branch is then fairly laid over/flattened…that sucker is going to roll. YMMV.

Just saw Aktill’s post: Completely agree.

[aktill]

Here’s a markup of the original photo. The green is using just the plate, and you’ll not that unsurprisingly the latigo lines up with the middle of where the plate probably attaches (I’m estimating).

The blue lines are a guess as to where you’ll end up rigged double. The cinch position is a bit of an estimate.

The dots are where the center of support ends up.

http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/Internet%20Discussions/ChronicleForums/code_western.jpg

Marked up the photo again to show how you’re heading south of centerfire rigging position

As an FYI, centerfire saddles of the past were generally used with very wide cinches: http://www.artcords.com/public/110823Cinch_Fit.pdf

With mine, I’m weaving/stringing up some 30 strand cinches that are coming out 8.5" wide. Using those saddles with narrower modern cinches can cause them to “walk”, even if the center is in the right place. As an FYI too, mine are 38" long as well.

[froglander]

Hmm, you raise some interesting points. I am going to have read through your post and look at the pictures better when I get home.

My saddle has a tendency to bounce a bit in the back if I send him out on a few circles, and it also tends to creep forward. I was going to try the V-rigging idea to see if maybe it’d help as I find using a back cinch awkward when I try and put my leg back.

Hoping my saddle isn’t hopeless

[katarine]

It doesn’t LOOK hopeless, but just maybe a titch too wide in the front?

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7431251]
Hmm, you raise some interesting points. I am going to have read through your post and look at the pictures better when I get home.

My saddle has a tendency to bounce a bit in the back if I send him out on a few circles, and it also tends to creep forward. I was going to try the V-rigging idea to see if maybe it’d help as I find using a back cinch awkward when I try and put my leg back.

Hoping my saddle isn’t hopeless :([/QUOTE]

You may want to try a K-girth (not a pack cinch, mind you), like in the linked PDF. Then you can do up the straps to the front as normal, but add extra support to the rear. https://store.artcords.com/k-cinch-design/

Based of where the support is moving, I can see why the saddle is tending to shimmy in the rear. The first time my wife saw her mare moving in my double rigged western saddle as opposed to her dressage saddle (which is rigged/moves like yours), she was amazed at how much more “horse movement” she could see underneath the fog of saddle movement.

[aktill]

BTW, the saddle is likely trying to “get underneath the latigo”. It may fit okay, but because you’ve got a horse with a flat underline, the saddle moves from where the latigo is at an angle closer to where the latigo is vertical. If you moved the saddle forward from where it is in the photo, the cinch would be slack after all. If it’s a little wide like Katherine says, then it has the room to scoot forward like I’m describing.

Compare the underline of your horse to mine: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurSnaffle.jpg

My latigo can stay at an angle like that because his underline is curved naturally. The latigo is actually perpendicular to the curve of his belly, and the flare at the front of the saddle isn’t excessive (which would otherwise let it move forward).

I’ve never noticed anyone talk about this, but I’ve sure noticed it.

[aktill]

This is a pack cinch BTW: http://www.easphotography.com/Horses/General/RiggingEnduranceSaddle.jpg

[froglander]

This is how I’d thought to do the latigo, would this not be advised?

These are some pics I took tonight. If it’s inappropriate to add this to this thread, please let me know and I will delete my post

https://picasaweb.google.com/111009817625947235626/CodySaddleFit2014?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNXviPKqoa2pDw&feat=directlink

[katarine]

I don’t think you want to do it that way.

Do it the same way on both sides.
Tie it off to the rear dee.
run it out through the girth
up to the front dee
down through the front dee
out through the girth again and buckle

It’s going to pull things wonky and I don’t think you’ll be happy with the results…but don’t leave that latigo tied off to the front dee. Move it to the rear.

[froglander]

I was just taking my existing strap as an example to take a picture of the angles.

So would it just be better to get used to a back cinch? Or save up for a Y(or K?)-cinch?

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=katarine;7432244]
I don’t think you want to do it that way.

Do it the same way on both sides.
Tie it off to the rear dee.
run it out through the girth
up to the front dee
down through the front dee
out through the girth again and buckle

It’s going to pull things wonky and I don’t think you’ll be happy with the results…but don’t leave that latigo tied off to the front dee. Move it to the rear.[/QUOTE]

I want to make sure I understand correctly. Are you saying that you should have the latigo attached to the rear D and work backward, running it through the cinch, then up to the front D? I’ve not heard this before and it seems like it would put more pressure on the cantle area of the saddle.

Here’s how I do it and how the CR saddle people recommended it to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HwP0v5KqN0

You can see from my picture, though, that I make mine more of a Y and have the cinch back more so that the straps are more even and not one like this | and the other like this / (if that makes sense).

[aktill]

This works very well: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/IMG_2925.JPG

Latigo is attached to the front D.

[froglander]

Where do you find such a nice, wide cinch?

Also, the way you have the latigo going, it seems more straight down than angled in the front?

[aktill]

That one I strung up myself: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/CenterfireCinchNoShu.JPG

38" long, 8.5" wide.

They’re a very old style of cinch, and not common. Beaver Valley Fibre Arts on Facebook makes amazing ones, or you can order here (these folks make the buckles): http://borkandsons.com/buckaroo.html

I can set where I want the cinch to hang by setting the forward loop on the pin and varying the tension to the rear dee. Don’t want it much further back than this because you don’t really want to have the cinch off the horse’s sternum. At 14hh Tin isn’t a big horse.

[froglander]

Ugh, tried with the back cinch when I rode today. It did help the saddle bounce and wiggle less (once he got used to it…, haven’t put one on in a long time) but when I tried riding with it it just felt like it was in the way of my leg Toik it off and had a good ride though

For my horse, the bay gelding I’d posted some pics of, using the v-shaped rigging just would not be a good idea then?

[Pocket_Pony]

Jeepers, aktill, is there anything you don’t do!?:winkgrin: Lovely cinch!

froglander, I love your horse, he’s very cute!

I’ve watched others ride where it looks like their spur would get caught up in the rear cinch and that is something I would worry about (because I like to worry, and what’s one more thing to add to my list?), but for everyone I’ve asked, they say it isn’t a problem.

I couldn’t see the last picture you posted - I get a Google error.

Why not just give it a try? You’ll probably need two new latigos, as you don’t want to do an offside billet on one side and the 3-way on the other side, but it is worth a shot if you’ve got the d-rings on your saddle (not just the leather slot).

Aktill, I liked that article you posted about cinch width. I might have missed it, but is there a reason that more saddles aren’t center-fire these days? Does it not provide enough security/stability for roping?