2WBs…AK’s attitude toward the OP was the issue, coupled with the lack of knowledge, not the lack of knowledge alone. Losing a pregnancy after 35 days results in a mare not returning to estrus for the rest of the season, so there is no possibility of rebreeding that year, anyway. Once confirmed in foal at 30 to 45 days, many people just stop checking to keep costs under control. There are many differences in equine repro and human repro. The hand in the rectum is one of them.
One of the best sites for learning about equine reproduction is here:
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;6255467]
You are all up in arms about suing the stallion owner, what about the vet who said he heard a heartbeat? why is the stallion owner to blame? Why didn’t the vet to an ultrasound? Did you tell him not to? Why? No money? Why didn’t the vet palpate? This is not new science, there are ways to ensure you still have a foal all during the pregnancy, I don’t understand why the mare’s vet checks weren’t performed?
I have to say, I am not a breeder, and I look at that mare’s belly and it is not a pregnant mare. She’s obese and not carrying for a foal, why would you think she was pregnant?[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure. I will ask her on monday, she was certain there was a foal in there then… guess even vets are only human.
StG[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;6255467]You are all up in arms about suing the stallion owner, I am not up in arms about suing anyone. Far from it.what about the vet who said he heard a heartbeat? why is the stallion owner to blame? The SO is not to blameWhy didn’t the vet to an ultrasound? Did.Did you tell him not to? No. Why? No money? Why didn’t the vet palpate? Did 2 u/sThis is not new science, there are ways to ensure you still have a foal all during the pregnancy, I don’t understand why the mare’s vet checks weren’t performed? The mare’s vet checks were performed, the vet did not deem it necessary to palpate. I do not know why. I am a first time breeder here and I was going off what my vet was telling me.
I have to say, I am not a breeder, and I look at that mare’s belly and it is not a pregnant mare. She’s obese and not carrying for a foal, why would you think she was pregnant? Um, because I was told she was, saw u/s images, and had no reason until recently to suspect she was not. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=2WBs1TB;6255607]I didn’t get the feeling that AKate was trolling. She asked some of the same questions as I was asking myself. Why wasn’t the mare palpated after 60 days to make sure she hadn’t resorbed the foetus -because my vet said it was not necessary, that I could do it to find out the sex around 70 days, but I did not feel it was something I needed to do just to find out sex. There was no mention of any possible problem, and I was not in the position to argue with her. I trusted and still do trust her opinion.and why wasn’t she ultrasounded at some point to make sure there were no anomalies, like twins? She was, at 14 and 30 days Had this been done, she would have known 300 days ago the mare was open.
I’m not even going into the whole fescue thing…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=lyrical;6255701]2WBs…AK’s attitude toward the OP was the issue, coupled with the lack of knowledge, not the lack of knowledge alone. Losing a pregnancy after 35 days results in a mare not returning to estrus for the rest of the season, so there is no possibility of rebreeding that year, anyway. This is what vet yesterday said. Once confirmed in foal at 30 to 45 days, many people just stop checking to keep costs under control. There are many differences in equine repro and human repro. The hand in the rectum is one of them. haha
One of the best sites for learning about equine reproduction is here:
So call it inexperience, ignorance, whatever you want, on my part, of course. I guess it was not meant to be. DH is actually pretty disapointed himself and thinks we should try again. Just making a list of questions for the vet tomorrow before making any decisions. Thank you for all the kind replies. I feel a bit better today, and the encouragement helps.
There are a few things I am still confused about. Why does she still have the pocket of edema in front of her udder? Why has her vulva been relaxed? Why have her udders themselves been swelling/shrinking when they never have in the past? Hormones due to her coming into season perhaps? I can post pics if anyone is interested.
MPS, I had the same thing happen to me last year, after breeding “I’ve-lost-count” number of mares. Didn’t know for sure she was not in foal until we had her palpated at 10 months. She was just not shaping up right, though God Knows, she was fat! And it happened to a good friend of mine who has bred umpteen mares, the year before. Didn’t know until foaling time. It happens, even to seasoned breeders.
By the way…the “edema” in front of the udder??..it’s fat. Seriously. Ask me how I know…Have your head vet check her to see where she is in her cycle, and call the stallion owner. You can do this!
For the record, I am the one who mentioned suing the stallion owner if she will not uphold her own contract, not the OP. When something like this happens whether or not the stallion owner will stand by their stallion and the terms of their contract that they themselves provided should be the last thing on the mare owner’s mind. OP if you read the contract you can see that you have the option of selling the breeding if you decide you do not want to rebreed. Whether you can find someone willing to get involved is another matter however.
OP, no one was suggesting that you palpate your mare yourself. Your vet does that for you if warranted. There is no right and wrong aside from the initial checks for twins which was obviously done.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;6255465]
I’m sorry this happened, but why were you unaware that the mare was open? Don’t breeders conscientiously do palpations? How about ultrasounds? It seems incredulous to me that you would be unaware that the mare was not carrying for an entire year, wherein you thought she was in foal. How does that happen?[/QUOTE]
Ok, your comments are beyond out of line. How dare you make this sort of comment and use the word “incredulous” in addressing a mare owner who just found out she was not going to have a baby after much effort, expense and hope. Pretty simple, you clearly are a *****…use your imagination.
[QUOTE=2WBs1TB;6255607]
I didn’t get the feeling that AKate was trolling. She asked some of the same questions as I was asking myself. Why wasn’t the mare palpated after 60 days to make sure she hadn’t resorbed the foetus and why wasn’t she ultrasounded at some point to make sure there were no anomalies, like twins? Had this been done, she would have known 300 days ago the mare was open.
I’m not even going into the whole fescue thing…[/QUOTE]
I’ll just keep this short and put you in the same bucket as Kate…
You people seriously need to look at yourselves, you REALLY think it is ok to speak to this mare owner this way? If so, WOW.
Fortunately MPS, has cleared up your misconceptions on her vet care.
[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6256228]
I’ll just keep this short and put you in the same bucket as Kate…
You people seriously need to look at yourselves, you REALLY think it is ok to speak to this mare owner this way? If so, WOW.
Fortunately MPS, has cleared up your misconceptions on her vet care.[/QUOTE]
Um, yes. She comes on here showing pictures of a horse that looks fat, not pregnant and asking opinions. I gave mine.
While I’m not Claiborne Farm as far as the number of breedings I’ve done,I’ve been involved in more than a few. Am I an expert? No, but based on my experiences, this breeder seemed to be cutting corners, which I find odd especially for a personal horse.
In every breeding I’ve been involved with, and everyone I know who breeds has done, they’ve ultrasounded at 60 and or 90 days to check for gender and possible twinning or other issues, since sometimes a twin can hide in the first 30 days. (Imagine that!) Especially when dealing with maiden mares vs experienced mares, my vets have recommended the extra checks because you don’t have a track record for how she carries, etc., plus the increased potential for problems, miscarriages and resorptions, etc.
Is a 60 day or even a 90 day ultrasound a guarantee that a mare will carry to term? Of course not, but the odds of a miscarriage/resorption do decrease with time. If she had done the extra ultrasound, the mare owner would not have continued to feed her mare as if she was preggers for another 10 months so that she looked like a tick ready to pop, risking other health issues like laminitis.
So feel free to get off your high horse. :rolleyes:
In every breeding I’ve been involved with, and everyone I know who breeds has done, they’ve ultrasounded at 60 and or 90 days to check for gender and possible twinning or other issues, since sometimes a twin can hide in the first 30 days. (Imagine that!) Especially when dealing with maiden mares vs experienced mares, my vets have recommended the extra checks because you don’t have a track record for how she carries, etc., plus the increased potential for problems, miscarriages and resorptions, etc.
If she had done the extra ultrasound, the mare owner would not have continued to feed her mare as if she was preggers for another 10 months so that she looked like a tick ready to pop, risking other health issues like laminitis.
Actually, I did not change her feed or hay until January per vets recommendation.
So feel free to get off your high horse. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I find it just about incomprehensible that people are berating the OP for not realizing that her mare was open. Many breeders do not ultrasound after 30 days. It usually depends on what the breeding contract dictates. The optimum time to check for and deal with twins is from 14 to 17 days. A 60 day ultrasound is something that I normally do, but it certainly is not mandatory, nor is the failure to do one at that time a sign of poor breeding practice.
Last year I had three mares lose their pregnancies after 35 days. I do the 60 day checks, but if I had not done them, that certainly would not make me a bad breeder.
I suspect that ambitious kate and 2wbs1tb have a personal axe to grind with the OP. Nothing else makes sense here. Their comments are just over the top tacky.
HAF, I agree. It really seems as though there is something personal going on to attack the OP in this manner.
I am mystified as to why the OP is getting banged on for not doing more palps. Most actual breeders don’t just have a vets arm shoved up their mare’s rectum at the drop of a hat. A really educational thread (in a very sad/horrifying way) is this one: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304344
Coupled with the fact that no one knows how this maiden was to palpate. If she was straining and worried, then even under sedation she was a much higher rectal tear risk. WHen I was breeding, my mares got checked twice, once at 14 days, and again around 45, unless they had double-ovulated. THen they were checked 3x for twins. In the beginning I used to try to have the fetus sexed, but decided this was a waste of money as both of the therios I used didn’t get it right more than 50% of the time.
IN this thread though, the OP’s mare was checked twice for pregnancy/twins - that is usually sufficient. Once the fetus has dropped below the pelvic brim, then you’re not going to be able to tell if the mare is pregnant until MUCH later in the pregnancy.
I wasn’t going to say anything, but it occured to me that this is the right time of year to bring up the whole rectal tear danger in palping mares.
Don’t know that it will make you feel any better but same thing happened to me at 320 days this year. Took mare in - she did have the start of a bag - to get caslicks opened. Told vet he better check her first because he was huge but carrying differently than years before. Sure enough sometime after her 45 day check she slipped it. Thankfully stallion owner was a gem. Best of luck whatever you decide
[QUOTE=Hilltopfarmva;6255644]
I have a mare that lost her first pregnancy after the 60 day check. I noticed by January she was not looking like the other mares, so I had her palpated. No baby. Last year I bred her to Figaro B, I wanted to make sure I did not lose this baby, so I had bloodwork done on the mare. Progestrone was low, so on with the regumate. Checked progestrone at 7th month and it was 8.1, vet suggested weaning her off Regumate. So I did. Though, having my suspicions I pulled the blood myself at 3 weeks off of Regumate, going into the mares 8th month, also did a total estrogen. can’t remember the estrogen, but the progestrone had dropped to 4.2, so back on regumate she went. I got a beautiful filly on day 338.
So, first timers need to be diligent and your vets need to be educated and offer suggestions. Most vets will not be trying to rip you off by suggesting bloodwork. If it is your first time or a new mare for you that you do not know the breeding history, then an extra $50 here or there for bloodwork can be the difference between a foal and no foal.
I did have one abort this year at day 317, but her pregnancy had been troubled since day 250. So sometimes you can do everything and spend tons of money, but nature says not this time.[/QUOTE]
Although it is completely off topic at this point, I wanted to clarify here. Progestin remains between 4-10 ng/ml (fluctuation within this range and slightly out of this range is normal) until about day 300 and then peaks around day 340 at about 26 ng/ml. This is why it is a good predictor in mares with placentitis; if we are doing serial progesterones and we see a rise prior to day 300, we know the mare is probably getting ready to abort. Total estrogens are the opposite; they remain high during the pregnancy, then drop as parturition approaches.
I know it is off topic, but I want breeders to be cautious in their use of Regumate, as it can cause issues and should only be used when absolutely needed.
Here is an excellent article that explains the above points in greater detail : http://www.betlabs.com/downloads/ENDOCRINE%20DIAGNOSTICS%20IN%20.doc
OP, don’t let the haters get you down, this could and has happened to all of us. Maybe not to this extent but we have all had mares we hemmed and hawed over. It happens. I lost my first ever foal too. My first broodmare aborted at 7 months for no obvious reason. She had four foals in a row following that. The fourth was born with no eyes and had to be put down at 10 hours old. If given the choice I would have preferred she be found to be open unexpectedly than go through that.
[QUOTE=mpsbarnmanager;6255919]
There are a few things I am still confused about. Why does she still have the pocket of edema in front of her udder? Why has her vulva been relaxed? Why have her udders themselves been swelling/shrinking when they never have in the past? Hormones due to her coming into season perhaps? I can post pics if anyone is interested.[/QUOTE]
I have found my mare having udders and it is due to clover. I have seen and heard of other mares doing the same when they eat clover. My mare is a maiden mare. But wow can she pack some knockers, and teats when she eats clover. I haven’t checked her vulva as to relaxed or not.
