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My now 7yo mare was like this ^^ exactly when first backed. The first week or two, she would walk forward when asked and generally follow an open rein to change direction. By week 3, however, the brakes were fully engaged and any insistence to move forward (i.e. squeezes, clucks, kicks, whip taps, etc.) made her kick out at the leg and/or go backward. Very frustrating to say the least. She had been vetted right before backing, and had been given the green light too. We settled for a combination of “come to Jesus” and “praise the snot out of her”–at the first sign of resistance, the forward cues would be escalated until she put even one foot forward, and then I dumped on the praise and sugar cubes. This process continued for a few weeks, with us getting gradually more forward steps before the brakes locked up. I also gave her a lot of time off to think about things (we usually “worked” 3 days/week for 3 weeks and then took 3 weeks off for the first 2 years she was under saddle).
At 6yo, she was still confrontational to the leg–she was showing 2nd/3rd level, but her go-to when something was difficult or new was to go backwards and/or kick out at the leg. Had her vetted by 3 different specialists and tried Regumate, but nothing really worked. Then, I changed her diet to be mostly beet pulp (no molasses) and hay with just a bit of senior feed. It took about 2 weeks to see a difference, but one year later, she’s a completely different horse! She seems much happier in the work and is showing PSG and schooling Intermediate. If you suspected ulcers, maybe he has hindgut acidosis (like I suspect with my mare)? If he does, adding beet pulp might help.
I would double check the saddle fit with a quality fitter
when I had this going backward issue, it was a saddle pressure issue
He is just young right? Have you contacted the people you bought him from?
Have you tried lunging him with a rider?
I do not agree with your trainer: sounds like she is thinking he knows what he should do, but is being obstinate (so deserves punishment), but backing is MORE work, not less, and this is a YOUNG horse. It makes much more sense to believe he is receiving conflicting input (and doesn’t know how to respond) or just doesn’t understand in the first place, and his “guess” as to what to do is that he should back up.
Conflicting input could be: leg to go forward combined with a pinching saddle, dental issue (or too much front end contact), ulcer pain, rider that pinches with the knees or tips forward and so on.
Consider too, that his former trainer may have not taught him leg yet. They may have asked for go with a tap from a whip, a vocal command, or some other cue. He may take the feeling of leg wrapping around his thoracic has a feeling of being trapped, causing him to think going back is the best option. Leg aids are not intuitive to a horse…you have to teach them, so I would go back to basics and combine a cue he does understand with the leg aids. (so ask for walk with a vocal cue or on the lunge, and THEN add the leg. Once that works consistently, add the leg at the same time as the cue, and then add the leg with the other cue as a back up).
I absolutely would not tolerate someone giving a “come to Jesus” moment on a young horse…that could REALLY backfire.
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From the sounds of your post describing how you got him to walk forward from the mounting block, you did not teach him forward from the leg or whip aid. You taught him step forward if there’s a treat then you get that! I would treat him like an unstarted horse and send him to a breaker for 6 weeks. Tell them to put walk, trot, canter, turns on him and take him out trail riding a time or two.
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I’m no expert, but holy crap you need to find a trainer who knows what they’re doing with a young horse. This horse has no idea what you want from him and he’s being treated as though he ought to. You are going to have one confused/pissed off/ruined horse if you continue on this path.
Seriously, do not work with this horse until you have a competent trainer come out. He’s better off sitting doing nothing than continuing with what is described above. And I agree with CHT, a come to Jesus session with a horse who has no idea what you want is about THE WORST thing you can do to him right now. Not only is it the opposite of helpful, it’s completely unfair to the horse. If that is what the GP trainer’s plan find someone else, she’s not qualified to work with a young horse.
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Had that with an 11-year-old who came to me. I suspect she had gone through the “CTJ” meetings. My solution: patience. Get on horse, sit until totally calm. Ask for walk with leg aid. She backed, I let her back, where’s she gonna go in a round pen? When she stopped, take a deep breath and ask again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Calmly keep asking, she figured out she was working pretty hard! FIRST inkling of step forward, get off and praise her to the moon. Nice relaxing grooming session, and lots of scratchies.
Next day, same. But she had to offer one full step forward before the spa session. Third day, two steps…
Took about two weeks, but got a lovely forward installed.
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Been thru this myself…saddle fit, patience, calmness (can’t overemphasize this) and lots of positive reward for going forward.
I had a friend who was given a horse that had been thru the CTJ training method. Problem was, the horse, although beautiful conformation, could not do what was being asked. The said “trainer” (cough, cough) basically taught this horse how to fight (rear and spin) as a defense and created a dangerous horse. When friend got the horse, we had to start at step one like a newly backed horse.
It is much, much better to progress slowly than to have to undo poor training. A 4-year old horse is still a baby.
Get a new trainer, or follow do it yourself and the suggestions above.
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another vote to put him on the lunge line with a rider. If he’s happily forward on the lunge with those cues, then coordinate rider cues with lunge person - so rider says “I’m going to ask for trot” and both rider and lunge person ask for trot. Until he understands from rider alone. This can take a few weeks. Then ask person to stand in middle of arena with NO lunge line, but help “support” the cues - do this for a few rides until the horse is comfortable with the process.
This is a young horse and may just be very green. He needs help, not a beating!
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[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273595]
[I]"…Mounting was not possible with how shy he was to it so we broke it down to make it fun."
"… this horse is so incredibly sensitive to his environment I can’t imagine that going well. "
"…But he’s odd, he’s excellent for the farrier for example but panics if someone pops their head around the wash rack. Thankfully he comes back to you quickly; startles, then listens to you, processes and settles back down. "
“He’s just a jumpy baby and at this point it seems more important that he trust his humans.”[/I][/QUOTE]
You have the solution to your horse in this post…
What you have seems an incredibly sensitive and intelligent horse. This is the clue for how to approach his training. This is a horse that could possibly go to GP.
As in the Chinese proverb, this could be good, and it could be bad.
The good thing is that these horses hear a “whisper of an aid”…the “bad” is that it places great responsibility on the rider to be a quiet, effective rider…one who can actually hear what the horse is saying…and respond appropriately.
These are the horses that can be ridden off the seat. These are the horses who can do GP on a snaffle, who piaffe on loose reins. Why??? Exactly BECAUSE they are sensitive to light aids.
Again…this places enormous responsibility on the rider/trainer to be very self aware and aware of the horse’s reactions so he/she can adapt and respond. This is the horse that will make you a better rider and a better horseman.
There are many so called “trainers” that are oblivious to what such a horse as sensitive as what you have is trying to say. They are deaf and blind to the horse.
If you want to improve as as horseman, to develop your equestrian tact, my suggestion is to train this horse yourself. He will become your friend. You will get to know him and his sensitivities and this will show you the way to his brain.
I stopped a Cadre Noir trainer at a clinic when he was over riding my stallion…this was another one of those exceptionally sensitive horses.
I suggested to the trainer that you had to tone down the volume (e.g…, intensity of the aids) and just to “explain” what you wanted to the horse and reward the try. Fortunately, I had a relationship with the trainer, he listened to me, and the horse went on to perform beautifully.
So be prepared to be the advocate for your horse throughout his career because this will NOT be the last time this happens.
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[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8273609]
another vote to put him on the lunge line with a rider. If he’s happily forward on the lunge with those cues, then coordinate rider cues with lunge person - so rider says “I’m going to ask for trot” and both rider and lunge person ask for trot. Until he understands from rider alone. This can take a few weeks. Then ask person to stand in middle of arena with NO lunge line, but help “support” the cues - do this for a few rides until the horse is comfortable with the process.
This is a young horse and may just be very green. He needs help, not a beating![/QUOTE]
Thanks! This is what I’m trying Monday and I think should have started with when I wanted to a few months ago when we first backed him here.
I do think it’s odd he could compete at any level last year but at this point, i think going back to the basics seems like the right place to start. Fingers crossed!
I let the EFFORT be enough for the first day. Break down the forward into increments- first he has to know in his mind that’s the right answer. As soon as I felt in her body, a willingness to pick forward, YES! right answer! and rewarded that.
If I would have kept going for more, it would have been confusing. “Was that the right answer? I’m not sure now, you keep asking”
First, a full vet exam to rule out pain…
Then: Do what you have to do to find a young horse specialist who has years of experience starting large, sensitive warmbloods. I think your horse is boing over faced.
I also think that longing with the rider, as a passive element at first, is a good start to try to sort through all the variables of tack fit, understanding of aids, etc. start with the rider doing nothing, them add one aid at a time.
This is a very big problem, and getting behind the leg as a habit is one of the worst problems you can have in a dressage horse. Your trainer is correct to treat it as a serious issue, but I think her methodology is off.
I STRONGLY suggest that this horse get OUT of the arena and on trails with a lead horse ASAP. And a lead horse in the ring is very helpful in a situation like this too. Once the horse has committed his body to a backward balance, its very hard for them the literally “change gears”. A horse in front of him will help him start to think “forward”.
All of these things will only help with a very skilled rider/trainer on board, and a totally calm lead horse who won’t pulverize junior if there is a little fender-bender. Also, of course, it’s hard to find appropriate outdoor areas for riding a young horse.
Best bet may be to find a GOOD event trainer. They get out of the ring early, ride out all the time and have facilities to support that idea. My bet is that few months with an event barn learning to use his body outside will unstick him 
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[QUOTE=Diamontaire;8273749]
I let the EFFORT be enough for the first day. Break down the forward into increments- first he has to know in his mind that’s the right answer. As soon as I felt in her body, a willingness to pick forward, YES! right answer! and rewarded that.
If I would have kept going for more, it would have been confusing. “Was that the right answer? I’m not sure now, you keep asking”[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I almost feel like any change in attitude is what I praised the last time I was on. His ears go back when he goes back, but when I stopped asking with leg (and I had on a 3/4" rounded spur) and starting telling him you can dooo iiiiiit, he pricked his ears forward, his neck and back relaxed and forward we went. However slow it was!
Thanks for the reinforcement! I really wish it wasnt storming at the moment so I could go hop on!!
Another thing to be try, is to deliberately and obviously to the horse, push your hands forward whenever you ask the horse to go forwards. It’s very usual for people to unconsciously take up the contact when they ask for forwards, as you can on an educated horse. You probably can’t with this horse.I would have someone calm and sensible on the ground with a longe whip that they only raise when the horse sticks, and lower at all other times.They probably won’t even need to wave it at him if you keep the front door open.
Stay his friend, because the very last thing you want is to have an athletic sensitive horse viewing you as something to fear 
[QUOTE=raff;8273776]
Another thing to be try, is to deliberately and obviously to the horse, push your hands forward whenever you ask the horse to go forwards. It’s very usual for people to unconsciously take up the contact when they ask for forwards, as you can on an educated horse. You probably can’t with this horse.I would have someone calm and sensible on the ground with a longe whip that they only raise when the horse sticks, and lower at all other times.They probably won’t even need to wave it at him if you keep the front door open.
Stay his friend, because the very last thing you want is to have an athletic sensitive horse viewing you as something to fear ;)[/QUOTE]
Thank you! It’s funny, it feels like a rein back most of the time. Leg on and whoooosh! Backwards! If we ever get to perform it in a test, we’re certainly getting high marks.
I do make sure to push my hands forward but he also does this thing where he dips his nose to his chest like way over-round. So I tend to “bump” him up and push reins forward and up so that he’ll come out of that position. He’s very bendy for a big warmblood and I had thought about that being an evasion to some pain in walking forward, but he was vetted thoroughly and massaged. And on the lunge without a rider he holds him self more normally, sometimes nicely seeking down low into the bit but mostly he holds his nose slightly out where I would prefer it for working at this age.
But anyway, Because of bumping up there is more contact than I would like when he’s going backwards. I’ll pay attention it it! Thanks again!
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273830]
…It seems in his experience, refusal to respond means a lack of respect and in some ways I totally understand not wanting to let that go unchecked.
…[/QUOTE]
Refusal does not always mean lack of respect. It can also mean a horse saying “I can’t do what you are asking me to do.”
This is what happened with the friend’s horse who was rearing…beautiful horse, related to Totilas thru Nimmerdor…but weak in the haunches. Since it looked like it was in a GP frame standing still, trainers were asking it to do movements beyond the horse’s capabilities.
It depends on the type of horse this trainer is used to dealing with…some horses that are less than…shall we say “cooperative”…require a bit of a stronger hand. From how you describe your horse, a strong hand will escalate the problem. Sensitive horses require a sensitive…and NOT a strong hand.
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273830]…
I think I have a better insight to his mood/feelings/behavior than most on the ground, but under saddle I’ve really been struggling with the logical approach of “don’t let bad behavior escalate, you’re the boss” and the emotional response of “he obviously doesn’t like this, find a way to make it fun or he’ll never want to work for you.” It is incredibly frustrating to be able to read him so clearly except for this one major thing, and I think you’ve articulated that I just have to keep listening.
… [/QUOTE]
This is the horse that will make you grow as a rider and horseman. This is the horse that will improve your equestrian tact. As they say in tennis…“If you want to play a better game, play with a better player.” This horse will make you rise to his level. Don’t let any “trainer” fool you…they are also learning as they go along as every horse is a different animal.
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273830]…
I don’t think asking for ten minutes of trot under saddle is too much at his age, but there Is a disconnect somewhere and forcing him into it seems like it will cause the behavior to escalate rather than disappate. Currently, he just goes backwards and kicks out with baby bucks if you spur harder and I would like to avoid that turning into rearing and bucking with any real nastiness.
… [/QUOTE]
Ahhhh…this is where you need to put on your “sixth sense” and have intuition about where is “the edge”. The horse can probably do so much, then gets tired and off balance…and is telling you to “back off!” It is up to you as a rider to explore where is that edge and how to ask him to be polite…like when you are weightlifting and your trainer says, “Just one more rep.”
If you know that he will have an opinion about trotting 10 minutes, then perhaps something as simple as just asking for a 9 minute trot set is all that is needed. Eventually, horse gets stronger…and he has never thought about bucking or kicking…and in a short time you have a horse that can now happily do 11 minutes of trot.
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273830]…
I hope you’re correct, that he will translate his sensitivity to being responsive to light aids, so I really don’t want to kick kick kick just to get forward movement and then lose the reaction to light leg pressure altogether.
…[/QUOTE]
The only way you will “dull” a horse to the leg is to constantly keep it on him. Kinda like white noise…pretty soon you tune it out. The way to keep a sensitive horse sensitive is to ask a question (do an aid) and expect an answer…don’t nag the horse to death. He heard you.
Ask…Tell/Explain/Clarify…Demand/Increase Aid…and finally Make them Do It…but all of this requires sensitivity to probe the edges of where the horse is.
This is where equestrian tact comes in…the rider needs to sense if the horse is being (a) rebellious, (b) confused, © physically can’t do it…etc. The approach to each one of these scenarios is different.
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8273830]…
I am not a professional and this is my first youngster so I think I was a bit terrified to be wrong, I’ve not been strong in my convictions. When the trainer basically said he didn’t want to continue, I dove into research (thanks COTH!) and especially with all of your encouragement, I think this is the right approach and I should have listened to my instincts from the start. While I was (and will always be) worried that my skill level is not sufficient, I think I am certainly the right owner for his personality and simply won’t stop until we figure it out.
I’m not sure he’s destined for GP (he has a bit of toeing in on the right front and has nice gaits but not huge movement), but with a excitement for the job rather than the anxiety he seems to have, he can certainly be a beautiful partner!.. [/QUOTE]
This is where you will grow as a rider/horseman…if you are willing to listen to the horse, you will learn a lot for him. Perhaps periodic lessons with a more experienced trainer are appropriate, but ultimately he is your horse…and you should be proud to have brought it along.
Don’t worry about “mistakes”…perfection is the enemy of progress…horses forgive…you can always re-explaing.
In a sensitive horse, try to avoid confrontations so that he never learns the “bad stuff”…(like unseating you as a resistance) and you will be ok. Progress will be slow, but when he is 7-8 years old, you will come out at a better place than if you had large battles with a trainer. The horse will always remember those early battles and at some point may try the evasion again.
Prevention is 99.999% of the cure.
You say you longe him before you ride. But have you taken the time to build a relationship from the voice commands of longeing. The voice commands of walk, walk on, trot , canter. It is a distinct and clear vocabulary.
I would also as suggested check saddle fit.
Ity may well be worth your time to take him back to the training level of an untouched horse. Keep alert to his reactions, all of them. He’s telling you something, but it’s up to you and an alert, sympathetic, knowledgeable trainer to figure it out.
One thing to keep in mind is that Europeans can have very different definitions of green and broke. He may have never seen a mounting block before. He may not have been broke on the flat in a way that means something similar here. Don’t misunderstand, I am not saying they are doing things wrong or that all horses from Europe aren’t broke. Just know that there are some cultural differences. Consequently, don’t assume what your horse knows or believe he ought to know anything because of what he has or hasn’t done. It’s your job to find out what he does know, and then figure out how to teach him what he doesn’t.
If it were me, I would go back to working in hand and on the ground. Solidify voice commands and treat him like a horse who has never been backed. Introduce the mounting block and the weight of a rider so that he stays relaxed and comfortable. Find a steady Eddie and pony him, then put a rider up and do the same. You need to make it okay for him in a way that he both understands and can physically do, and you need to be extra careful because now all he knows is that people mounting = scary painful time. Working on the ground will build a relationship and let him trust you. He is a young, sensitive horse who has no confidence or trust in his handlers, and that will intensify his spookiness because he has to be on alert for everything instead of following the lead of a safe authority. Build a rapport with him and get to know each other and show him that working with you is pleasurable.
The “show him who’s boss” mentality has no place here. It is for horses who have learned to dominate people and should be done with no ego and only if the trainer’s timing is correct to give instant reward and praise for yielding. Even then, that dominance can come from insecurity in the horse and a lack of trust in the handler, which is why it is so imperative to create a safe and relaxed environment and most importantly, clear communication that he can understand.
He is so lucky to have you. Start over with him and build the relationship you want. That doesn’t mean being soft or letting him walk all over you. It means having consistent boundaries that are always enforced without emotion and clear communications with lots of praise when he gets it right. Praise for things you wouldn’t think of normally, like standing quietly and leading well and lifting a hoof, so that the experience is far more positive than negative and he knows that he is meeting the expectations. Young horses are always asking “is this right?” And if you don’t answer they will get creative and try something new because their job is to learn how to behave in the herd.
And finally, he’s four. If he will grow to over 16.2, you can expect another 3-4 years of growth (spine finishing last). Keep things short, keep things light and fun, and physically easy. There is no set formula about what he “should” be doing at this age. If he is as nice as you say, it will be easy to push too hard now. It is better to go slow in the beginning and build a base for the next few years than push him now and risk burning him out just as he reaches his prime. Personally I would only ride a couple of times per week now and give him lots of trails, breaks, and time off so that mentally he stays eager and fresh. Work with him in handand build that relationship instead of “training him for dressage” now. There’s nothing to prove at this age except human ambition.
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the buddy system
Do as much as you can with an older horse As in a ; ring/ paddock also, As little:no: as possibles possible:winkgrin: in a ring/ paddock enclosed area a
