Many people get in too much of a hurry when starting youngsters. They ask them to go, and they go, so they praise. Then they ask them to go, but go here (as in they direct them) and the horse gets confused. Establish GO before you try to establish DIRECTION. I try to ride babies in an area where they can be by themself so I can let them GO wherever they want for several days before I DIRECT them. Your horse may have been rushed in this way and then lost confidence. An opening rein to redirect the feet while backing (gently) then releasing and just getting GO should help. Your current trainer doesn’t seem to have enough experience with really green youngsters and may have already caused you some long-lasting issues. Good luck!
I’m late to this party, so forgive me if I say things that are repetitive.
I recently bought my first young horse in a long time and I have had to re-school myself in what it takes to ride them. This horse is also way more horse than was the homebred I made up for myself, and whose baby stage was more than 20 years ago.
IME, you need to be patient and very, very slow to assume that a horse is showing you brattiness under saddle. Usually, it’s that they don’t think they can do something.
I wouldn’t have my pro lunge a horse who won’t go forward in side reins. And I don’t see a place for any kind of “well Make Him Do It!”. Rather, you need patience and tact and nothing to be a big deal. I’ll bet this horse knows much less about doing under saddle than you guys thought.
Of course, I wasn’t educated in horse training traditions (making up hunters and getting colts “ranch broke”) that’s like what dressage people do. But here you have a horse who doesn’t think he can go forward. And I’ll bet that some of that comes from him being worried about you controlling his head and neck. Remember that a horse needs those body parts free because he’s using them for balance. They can get unsure and defensive if you take away something they need so badly. A horse really, really doesn’t want to fall over.
If it were me, I’d use my hands only enough to steer. And I’d concentrate on keeping his head right in front of his shoulders-- where he really is in balance-- and get him cruising around going forward.
And you can do more work on his obedience and balance on the lunge.
Yanno, I have a hunter-turned-dressage pro friend who is open-minded and she had a ranch-type western trainer come start her baby Andalusian. She said that woman had the horse cantering by the second ride. I’m sure that felt bad by dressage standards, the horse unbalanced, leaning and fast. But the point was to establish for the horse that he could go forward, even with a rider on his back and a tad out of balance. I think I’m starting to see the wisdom of this approach. Fixing a horse that sulls up is hard.
Almost every young (3 or 4 year old), green warmblood I’ve known has gone through a “No, I’m not going forward. I’m going to see what happens if I don’t,” phase.
You need to do something - anything - to send them forward. If you don’t, then a seed has been planted, and if you don’t kill it quick, then you will have problems from here on out. Warmbloods, as a group, are much more willing to have an ongoing argument with their riders than other breeds. They get really good really quickly at upping the ante.
You must teach this horse to say “Yes, ma’am” when you say “Forward.” Or else send them to a trainer who will ingrain this in them for you. Warmbloods require a lot leadership on the part of their riders, especially as youngsters. Put the horse in full training with somebody who can address this now.
quarters in on his weak side so we’re working on balance and him not being stressed when he missteps. He’s not terribly aware of his feet some days so if he trips or has a big step, he worries a little. But he’ll settle if you tell him it’s ok.
This maks it sound like the TTEAM learning exercises might be helpful; I would certainly teach them unmounted; then, ride through them If he is having trouble , have someone tap the hooves with the handle end; also the he handle end of the whip/ also to put the raised end of a pole/ cavaletti down:yes:
I agree with TickleFight. He must go forward. You need to find a rider who will give him his head when they ask him to move. Now isn’t the time to worry about the connection. It sounds like he is perceiving the contact for backwards. Make sure to make a big deal when he goes forward. “Good Boy”!, sugar and lots of pats. My mare did this when she was 4 too. She also would plant her feet and not move. I would not wear Spurs so you can take both legs off and slap your calves on him. Sometimes this sound will get them to go. Once you get him unstuck, then you might have to test his forward reaction often. My mare still tries to sneak behind my leg, but she doesn’t get sticky like she used to. I will always have to manage the forward, but it is much more refined. I can usually catch it within a stride or two, refresh and move on. Nobody on the ground even can see it. The young ones needs clarity. Forward good. Not moving or backward bad. You could even have a ground person help with a lunge whip. Verbal commands can help since you use them while lunging. I’m not sure I would address this on the line because I wouldn’t want them to feel pressure on the bit if he goes backward. If you do, no side reins. I agree that an event rider might be good. I had to have a few big battles to make it clear that leg on and forward. My mare was very Alpha, and I think it was more about her testing who was in charge. She understands the rules now and is schooling 4th/PSG and showing at 3rd. I am an amateur also.
I read most of the posts, and I agree with many of them.
It’s an animal, and yes it needs clear riding and training. Some young horses that are extremely smart and sensitive can be trained wrong, very fast. He needs a very good rider, that knows how to train a youngster, that is very clear and systematic in the training. Before ever going in a connection, my horses are taught to carry a rider, and just go forward. I put a simple one rein emergency stop on them, in case things go bad, and I use two people to start it. One on the ground ( the horse already knows go forward ground cues wtc) and one riding with a super seat and great hands. The rider cues, I back it up. We teach a soft leg, with a tap of a stick after that. I always teach the tapping of a stick as a go forward cue on the ground, so when the horse gets a tap tap, it already knows what it means. I take two months, on just mounting, walk, trot, and woah, and then add a canter. I do sessions 15/20 min max those first two months, three to four days a week. It takes time, and very knowledgeable people. I do not want the horse to get sore, ever, in the first year of work. I always do less, and repeat every session, even if they get it. I never rush. The biggest thing is, you may not have the skill set to accomplish it, yes, you might be able to…but be realistic in your abilities. He needs a very good leader, and it’s going to set him up for success the rest of his life. He already has confusion, and issues. I have a very good young rider I hire because I know what I am capable of. The last thing a young, confused horse needs is a rider that is not 100 percent sure what to do or how to do it. I highly agree that a very good event trainer, or even a forward seat hunter/jumper trainer might be a great option.
I will make this short - alot of young horses do not want to go forward! They will test the rider to see if they can get out of work. It takes a great rider to immediately set the horse straight that they must move off the leg - not thru spurs or whips. A true horseman ( woman) will instinctively know how to accomplish this. Sometimes they make it canter off =- whatever - this is a young horse who knows nothing and everything that you teach him will be his foundation so please find a great trainer who is experienced with young horses! This might not be a dressage person - it might be a cowboy, a hunter person - who knows…just someone who is experienced with young horses , who has the knowledge and confidence to get the job done the right way. Good Luck with your young horses.
+1 I would never fight with a baby like this, and always give him the benefit of the doubt to avoid scaring him. Many young horses react like this when they are confused and lack confidence.
+1 lungeing with a rider is often an excellent way to build a bridge from what a young horse understands (lunge work) to what he does not (forward under saddle). For this to work well both the rider and the person with the lunge line and whip need to be experienced and have excellent timing. If you have installed voice commands on the lunge this is even easier and helps to transfer control to the rider.
Kudos to you, OP, for listening to your horse, and to your gut. Your horse is fortunate that you are his advocate!
Many good suggestions here, I will just add one more. You might think about using video of your training sessions with your guy, if you had an extra person to take video. (Sounds like that might be difficult, tho.)
Wouldn’t it be nice to document your progress together? As well, you might be able to pick up subtle responses, a good “try” on his part, or figure out what factors may be helping (or not) in his training. Just a thought. Enjoy the journey!
You’re getting a lot of conflicting information on whether to force the issue or not. I feel like your instincts are correct - he is very sensitive. A lot of riders don’t understand what real sensitivity feels like, and the one thing I have learned in 30+ years of dressage is that you should never underestimate how confusion + sensitive horse = unmitigated disaster.
You said it yourself, he is a baby. Baby horses don’t know how to use their bodies, they often don’t understand what you want, and it’s HARD for them to put all of the cues they get from you together and figure out how to physically do what you’re asking.
So… deep breaths. The main thing you (maybe your trainer more than you) need to adjust right now is your expectations. Make your rides as short and simple as possible. All you want right now is forward, in any direction, at any pace. Make sure nothing you’re doing is giving him conflicting instructions. If he steps away from the mounting block at a walk just let him walk on a loose rein for a minute or 2 and that was a successful ride. If he walks and keeps walking limit yourself to no more than 15 minutes from start to finish, including longeing if you do that. But honestly I think you might be using up most of his learning time and capacity on the longe (which is ok to some degree but I think you need to save some for under saddle). Remember, this is difficult for him, he doesn’t have a long attention span and most importantly he isn’t joking. Horses just don’t have the motivations for disobedience most people seem to think - if they’re saying no there’s like 3 reasons why: he hurts, he doesn’t understand, or he physically can’t due to strength or balance or some combination. Young horses especially just don’t have the mental capacity to formulate elaborate resistances based on years of experience. They just live in the moment and react to stimuli.
I think that you’ll find he progresses normally once he understands exactly what he’s supposed to do and he feels confident he can do it. A long time ago I realized the most important aspect of training is to start and finish with a relaxed, happy horse. If you do that you can maximize what they learn in the middle, and sometimes you have to just take some deep breaths and readjust your expectations if every ride is an upsetting argument. He WILL get there.
On my phone so will try to keep this short. My young mare was very similar for a while. Very smart and sensitive. Much of the issue was my seat. She is very sensitive to any blocking with my seat or thigh. Another part of the issue was that she didn’t understand how to bend her rib cage and go forward at the same time. I had to break it down and teach her how to bend through her body at the halt, then slowly add on the forward.
All that being said, after she had 6+ months off while I was pregnant, I sent her to my trainer, who is fabulous with young horses, for 3 months so she was ready to go when I was able to ride again. Best decision ever. I wish I had done that when she was first getting going under saddle. I think we would have had many fewer issues. I am just outside Tallahassee. If you’d like my trainer’s contact info, PM me.
Had a morgan that would run backwards, and not go forward. With her it was a saddle fit, once she had a ‘super’ wide saddle she improved a lot, but then started to use the ‘backing’ up as an evasion. She was a 5 yr old with lots of show experience. I thought she was ‘ring’ sour. I then started to trail ride her and she started to improve and actually enjoyed being ridden again. The more she got out in the fields and open space the happier she became. I was able to ride again in the arena but still on occasion she would start to back up again. In my experience with this particular horse I just decided that arena work was no longer for her and I did not want to fight with her. She became a trail horse and started to enjoy life again and I just went with the flow.
Another vote to lunge a rider on him. Teach him that legs mean forward. The lunger asks for forward at the same time as the rider asks for forward. Then you swap when they understand to the rider alone asking.
No, don’t intentially back him. Once they have learned it you can’t stop them. If you pull the reins they go faster. If you kick they go faster. They keep going until they fall over something or fall into something. It is very dangerous.
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;8274007]
along the fenceline in an open:eek: field, would be good:)[/QUOTE]
I think you’re right! We’re moving out to the grass arenas this week! Thanks!
[QUOTE=dog&horsemom;8274329]
I will make this short - alot of young horses do not want to go forward! They will test the rider to see if they can get out of work. It takes a great rider to immediately set the horse straight that they must move off the leg - not thru spurs or whips. A true horseman ( woman) will instinctively know how to accomplish this. Sometimes they make it canter off =- whatever - this is a young horse who knows nothing and everything that you teach him will be his foundation so please find a great trainer who is experienced with young horses! This might not be a dressage person - it might be a cowboy, a hunter person - who knows…just someone who is experienced with young horses , who has the knowledge and confidence to get the job done the right way. Good Luck with your young horses.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your help! It seems that a lot of you have mentioned that babies have a “big back of tricks” to avoid working. I’m going to give it everything we can to nip it in the bud and install a good forward.
Coming late to this thread, but I have a young horse who will start under saddle in a couple months so your topic interested me.
My advice on the above cookie comment is no. Your horse can learn to work without cookies and I think that in the middle of a ride it is a distraction for such a young horse. If you are going to use cookies for training, the reward has to be immediate. So if you get off and give him a cookie, what are you rewarding him for? Getting off? That is a confusing and mixed message for him.
Something else you wrote stood out to me. You mentioned that you got him going forward again only when you sat deep. Is it possible that whoever started him sat deep also and that sort of bodyweight cue is what he understands to mean forward? If you sit with more of a light seat maybe he just doesn’t understand what that means?
I’d take off the spurs - they are a refinement aid and one that might be more confusing to him right now.
I’d go back to the lunge - one person in the saddle, one person leading. Maybe do that for a week or so at the walk with just the lead person steering and initiating the go and whoa. Then take the reins and have the leader help the rider with steering and whoa and go. Then have the leader on the ground but not using any aids, just there as support, slowly moving farther and farther away. Then maybe the leader is just in the middle and the rider is sort of on her own but the support of the leader is there. I’d break it down into small chunks since it sounds like maybe the horse knew one type of riding but now needs to learn a little bit different style since his first rider isn’t there to tell you/help you. You need to learn each other’s language.
I have seen colt starting classes where a group of horses will be “started” under saddle in one day and they are w/t and maybe canter in a rope halter that first day. I think those are well and good if your horse can go along with it and if you are with a trusted clinician. But if you’re on your own with a new horse who has been started in a different way and you are not 100% spot on with your timing, you could contribute to confusing the horse more.
Slow and steady with your horse. It sounds like you have the personality to be patient with him and have found a good resource in the BO. Listen to your gut and you’ll know what the right thing to do is.
We’ll be starting my filly u/s in a couple months and what we’re doing now hopefully is preparing her for a smooth transition. Lunging, long lining, hand walking, double lunging . . . simulating leg aids with various techniques, teaching her steering, teaching her voice commands. But the one thing my trainer is adamant about is that the answer is ALWAYS forward.
[QUOTE=Grasshopper;8274394]
On my phone so will try to keep this short. My young mare was very similar for a while. Very smart and sensitive. Much of the issue was my seat. She is very sensitive to any blocking with my seat or thigh. Another part of the issue was that she didn’t understand how to bend her rib cage and go forward at the same time. I had to break it down and teach her how to bend through her body at the halt, then slowly add on the forward.
All that being said, after she had 6+ months off while I was pregnant, I sent her to my trainer, who is fabulous with young horses, for 3 months so she was ready to go when I was able to ride again. Best decision ever. I wish I had done that when she was first getting going under saddle. I think we would have had many fewer issues. I am just outside Tallahassee. If you’d like my trainer’s contact info, PM me.[/QUOTE]
Thanks so much for the info! I had worried that I was gripping with my knees or something so the last time I rode, I made an very deliberate attempt to be a noodle except for my calf squeeze asking for forward and then releasing if I got backward instead. It didn’t work at first but when I ended up with those walk circles, every time I could feel him start to think about slowing, I focused on letting my legs hang loose and making sure my balance wasn’t tipped forward.
And thanks so much for letting me know about your trainer, if we can’t work this out here, I’ll send you a message! I’ve been recommended someone in Ocala as well. I’m concerned about him becoming even more anxious away. He’s finaaaally getting settled in at the barn here and while I think a bootcamp with the right young horse person would be the best thing for his training, sending him off will be the worst for his mental calmness. So I hope to get some progress before having to resort to that! Thanks again for sharing your experience!
If you’ve released when you’ve gotten backward instead of forward then you’ve taught your horse that backward is what you were asking for. Cue and release when you get what you want to teach the horse that release=reward=right thing. So cue + backward movement + release = reward for doing the right thing.
Isn’t it hard? I swear, riding a green horse makes you think you don’t know anything! The things you take for granted with a trained horse become so confusing sometimes! When I was first starting my mustang, he would stop and turn and look at my legs. A couple times I thought something might be wrong so I got off, took the saddle off, got on bareback, felt all around, etc. Then I just figured he was confused or annoyed or something and just rode through it and that behavior went away.
When starting a young horse, you really have to think about what you are doing and why and how your aids might be received and translated. It is more mental than physical, I think!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275885]
If you’ve released when you’ve gotten backward instead of forward then you’ve taught your horse that backward is what you were asking for. Cue and release when you get what you want to teach the horse that release=reward=right thing. So cue + backward movement + release = reward for doing the right thing.[/QUOTE]
^^ this…
I wouldn’t be trying any more DIY or trial and error training of this horse… the concept of release = reward is very simple and you’re already “training” him to go backwards. This is a really bad habit that needs to be stopped. If it were my horse it would be on it’s way to a trainer for 90 days to instill forward.
