There is actually something you can do to short circuit the backing.You teach him to step over with an opening rein. Think of it this way, say he’s bent right and backing up, that means his right front foot is pushing him left and backwards, this is a precursor to spinning left or rearing and spinning left or even rearing spinning and bolting. If you can just move that front foot to the right,all the rest can’t happen. It doesn’t take leg, which make his legs go faster, it takes a correct response to a leading opening rein.One step, release, one step release.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8274384]
You’re getting a lot of conflicting information on whether to force the issue or not. I feel like your instincts are correct - he is very sensitive. A lot of riders don’t understand what real sensitivity feels like, and the one thing I have learned in 30+ years of dressage is that you should never underestimate how confusion + sensitive horse = unmitigated disaster. [/QUOTE]
I am! I’m trying terribly hard to hang on to my convictions. I certainly take it hard when someone says, “this will become permanent if you don’t nip it now!” How can you not? But without sounding like I’m a crazy mommy who thinks my horse is a delicate flower, he’s not your average horse. –Everything– affects him. It’s plain to see if you pay attention, but most people aren’t super aware of their surroundings let alone someone else’s.
From the start, it was apparent he’s not very aware of his body. He would step into you in the stall or cross ties without realizing you were there, and the moment he felt you he would say “oh my gosh I’m sorry I didn’t realize!” Luckily he calms with contact, when he spooks on the lead (he doesn’t as much since he’s settled a bit) if you just put your hand on his shoulder, he would stop his little bolt and come back down to you. If he takes a big step on the lunge, he sort of startles himself. A trip makes him worry. If you tell him he’s alright, he relaxes. What I haven’t accounted for is what you mention, that the body confusion translates to being difficult to physically respond to a cue from me.
I would be overjoyed to get a willing walk for 2 minutes! But point noted. 
I used to think the saying “comparison is the thief of joy” was totally ridiculous. Comparing myself in business to others makes me strive to be the best. But with this fella, I’ve really had to stop thinking that he should be doing X because that same-aged pony is doing X. I’ll heed your advice and let any forward be success. We can build on it the next day and the next.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8274384]
If he walks and keeps walking limit yourself to no more than 15 minutes from start to finish, including longeing if you do that. But honestly I think you might be using up most of his learning time and capacity on the longe (which is ok to some degree but I think you need to save some for under saddle). Remember, this is difficult for him, he doesn’t have a long attention span and most importantly he isn’t joking. [/QUOTE]
I’ve certainly dabbled with the idea that it’s too much lunging then asking for the ride. I feel the need to lunge a little before hopping on, mostly because some days are good feet balance days and some are not. Just as some days are spooky days and some are not. So I feel like I need to see him react a bit but I wonder if cutting to 5 minutes each direction on the lunge then 5-10 minutes under saddle will be effective.
He doesn’t have a long attention span in general, as most young horses don’t. I try to limit everything right now, grooming isn’t an overly fussy thing, washing, etc, I try to ask him for patience for a small amount of time (ie he is replaced when he walks forward in the cross ties, asked to move over if he shifts when brushing) and then reward his patience with letting him go be a horse.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8274384]
Horses just don’t have the motivations for disobedience most people seem to think - if they’re saying no there’s like 3 reasons why: he hurts, he doesn’t understand, or he physically can’t due to strength or balance or some combination. Young horses especially just don’t have the mental capacity to formulate elaborate resistances based on years of experience. They just live in the moment and react to stimuli. [/QUOTE]
While I think he can physically move forward, I’m not asking for much, he definitely does not have much muscle for a 17hh baby. Which is part of why I try to lunge him for a decent amount of time, he doesn’t move much in turnout so I like to get him moving to build a little stamina and muscle. He tries to please you so much everywhere else I don’t imagine that he’s just being a brat. Thanks for reiterating his baby-mentality, I’ll be sure to think about it during everything I ask for physically.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8274384]
I think that you’ll find he progresses normally once he understands exactly what he’s supposed to do and he feels confident he can do it. A long time ago I realized the most important aspect of training is to start and finish with a relaxed, happy horse. If you do that you can maximize what they learn in the middle, and sometimes you have to just take some deep breaths and readjust your expectations if every ride is an upsetting argument. He WILL get there.[/QUOTE]
It may seem like you just gave your two cents, but I can’t tell you how helpful and reassuring your post (and everyone else’s!) have been to me. Allowing this horse to become the athlete I think he can be means the world to me. I’m not a train and sell kind of person. I bought a young horse because I want to have a partner for a long time, so that we can build our skills and relationship. I did say that if he got here and was too spooky to be fun or we didn’t mesh, I would let him go on to someone else. But he’s mine, no doubt about it. And I want to be the trainer he needs me to be, and make the choices that he needs me to make. I’m not always going to nail it, I’m not 100% fearless, and I don’t have that naturally fluid style that I envy watching professionals go. But I have quiet hands, a steady seat and the determination to figure it out. I was certainly having some self-doubt (and will continue to, I imagine!) and confusion about who to listen to between trainers with differing opinions and the vastly different approaches on these boards. But bottom line, I have to start listening to the voice in my head that reminds me that I know this guy, and he might just take a little longer to get comfortable with even small requests. With the help of trainers that are beautiful riders and horsemen, I hope I can meet the challenge.
Thanks again so much for your encouragement and insight. It was just what I needed.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8274044]
Almost every young (3 or 4 year old), green warmblood I’ve known has gone through a “No, I’m not going forward. I’m going to see what happens if I don’t,” phase.
You need to do something - anything - to send them forward. If you don’t, then a seed has been planted, and if you don’t kill it quick, then you will have problems from here on out. Warmbloods, as a group, are much more willing to have an ongoing argument with their riders than other breeds. They get really good really quickly at upping the ante.
You must teach this horse to say “Yes, ma’am” when you say “Forward.” Or else send them to a trainer who will ingrain this in them for you. Warmbloods require a lot leadership on the part of their riders, especially as youngsters. Put the horse in full training with somebody who can address this now.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your perspective. He definitely looks for confidence from his leader and I’ll strive to deliver that in every aspect.
Take him on lots and lots of hacking following a been there done that steady horse. Do transitions as you pootle along. It’s the easiest nicest way to do it IMO.
OP, you are doing a nice job of trying to take in everyone’s advice. Good job on trying to help your baby horse out!
I’m about 8 months in on my baby so I can tell you how the stuff I did for her way back in the winter has panned out. And she reminds me of your baby in some ways, though we never got her backing up.
But this mare is “claustrophobic” in the sense that she would think about going up (in hand, never happened under saddle) if she was trapped by, say, a fence on one side and a horse on the other and you leading her in front. So I had your problem but with a safety thing: I had to teach this mare to go forward as a happy/safe thing to do.
She also could get “lost”-- that is, start to lose her balance and walk faster/with more tension if you let her walk on the buckle. That was particularly true outside…. and that made those outside walks more scary for her than I intended. So I kept a feel of her lips and kept her head straight in front of her shoulders. That helps her stay balanced and maintaining her balance, in turn, helped her feel secure in the situation.
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8275744]
I still struggle with thinking that while perhaps he’s confused, he knows backwards is not correct. But even so, you’re very likely right that something I’m doing is making him anxious. I’m going to try and focus on not controlling his head and neck like you suggest. He does like to curl his nose to his chest so we “bump up” his head so he’s not in poised bucking position but maybe if I just forget about that, he’ll come out of it on his own. I don’t really mind a buck and haven’t seen him want to present anything big so perhaps just letting him be how he feels comfortable is the key? Of course on a baby, I don’t exactly want to throw the reins away but as someone else send, in a round pen where is he going to go? [/QUOTE]
Yes, to the “bump the head back up into position” when it’s curled too low. You don’t want that to become A Thing. It’s hard to fix and of no use to the horse when he’s a useful, broke citizen. To my way of thinking, it’s a young horse’s response to some riding that has him more broke to your hand than to your leg.
Try following these to basic rules for this horse, especially to cure the curling up issue
-
Just use one rein at a time as you would for a colt. Just have him follow the bit around. Use a turn to stop him. If he gets very bendy in the neck (actually not good for helping him keep his balance), maintain just enough outside rein to keep his head in front of his shoulders. If he feels trapped, use your turning rein (inside rein) as an opening rein, far out from his neck for him to follow around.
-
You can’t use more hand than leg on any horse, at any stage of training. So if your horse won’t go forward from you leg, you necessarily need less hand. Forward is the first thing you need. And if you know you can turn and stop this colt with one rein, you should mentally decide that you don’t have to care how fast he goes. You aren’t asking for galloping, but even if you got a forward trot with bad balance, you do have some brakes, so what’s the big deal? Let him do that and find his way.
OP, I have not read all the replies and I’m coming from a Western background, so take my thoughts for what they’re worth!
First, you’re to be commended for your sensitivity to your sensitive horse. It sorta sounds to me like he maybe wasn’t even started under saddle until he arrived at your place. I also wonder if his feed could be re-thought. I’m no vet, but he’s had a ton of transition - being imported, different food, different barn, different language, different people. That’s a lot of stressors for any horse, especially one that is sensitive. If he were mine, I’d want to give him next to no grain or feed and give him as much grass turnout and/or hay as possible, with a smidge of alfalfa. I’d gab with the vet, too, about the possibility of hindgut/stomach ulcers and whether a month of pop rocks or ranitidine is a good idea.
Regarding forward, I think the two of you need to wipe the slate clean. Start over. Make sure, really sure, that he knows w/t/c/whoa on the ground in the roundpen/on the longe line. Also make sure he will back up on the ground in his halter and bridle. Say “back” while you’re doing it.
When you’re sure he’s solid on these things - and you may already be sure - I’d then put you aboard on a longe. When he’s comfortable and steady-going, I’d get a rider on a genuinely calm horse to pony the two of you in the round pen. If things go well in the round pen, ride ponied around the property. The first couple of ponied rides can just be around the barn, past the arena, through the parking lot etc. Places the colt already knows. 10-20 minutes, tops.
Next time, ride on the longe, then pony a bit farther afield. You don’t have to be gone a long time or work him into a sweat. It’s simply getting out and giving a purpose to the ring work. He will have profoundly more confidence and trust with another horse as a close guide. I envision just walking at first with the pony horse, but if you feel like things are going super, a bit of a straight trot while ponied with a rider would be fine, too.
I think it should be up to you, and him, and the situation, as to how much leg and rein contact you’ll want to have on him as the longe rider and the ponied rider. I’d probably start out with no pressure of leg or rein the first couple times I rider longed.
Personally, once he has a behavior down, I’d cut out the hand treats. If he’s standing well at the mounting block, for instance, I would no longer treat. YMMV.
After some time doing this longe and pony stuff - maybe a couple weeks of 3x a week or several days in a row - I’d have in mind to work without the longe. If he backs up, I’d see it as a try, only in the wrong direction. If he wants to give me a back up, I’d say, good idea! Let’s back! And we’d back around quite a bit until he would really prefer to stop. Rinse and repeat. No real directing him at this point in terms of where you are backing, just backing, backing, backing until just after he wants to stop.
Offer him a stop. Let him absorb, ask for forward and see what happens. Open your rein to the right - sometimes they are more willing at first to step slightly to the side. If he gives even a teeny effort to the side or forward, stroke and praise. Give him a moment, and try again.
Note that all of this takes an unusual amount of calm and non emotion from you. Just encouragement when there’s an effort. There’s no punishment in this scenario, just a reward for the slightest try and some foxy thinking by you about how to make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.
Always end on a positive note. If he starts to give you a few feet of forward, then praise and take the saddle off right then and take him to hand graze. Ride’s over. The next day, build on that. You want to really make it clear that he’s given the right answer to your cue.
Yours is not an insurmountable problem, but it will take patience. I bet you’ll have him going forward in no time!
I love the tone of this thread! Usually with issues like this there are lots of people advocating for CTJ, and I am often the lone dissenter advocating patience. You guys rock!
[QUOTE=rockymouse;8276081]
OP, I have not read all the replies and I’m coming from a Western background, so take my thoughts for what they’re worth!
After some time doing this longe and pony stuff - maybe a couple weeks of 3x a week or several days in a row - I’d have in mind to work without the longe. If he backs up, I’d see it as a try, only in the wrong direction. If he wants to give me a back up, I’d say, good idea! Let’s back! And we’d back around quite a bit until he would really prefer to stop. Rinse and repeat. No real directing him at this point in terms of where you are backing, just backing, backing, backing until just after he wants to stop.
Offer him a stop. Let him absorb, ask for forward and see what happens. Open your rein to the right - sometimes they are more willing at first to step slightly to the side. If he gives even a teeny effort to the side or forward, stroke and praise. Give him a moment, and try again.
Note that all of this takes an unusual amount of calm and non emotion from you. Just encouragement when there’s an effort. There’s no punishment in this scenario, just a reward for the slightest try and some foxy thinking by you about how to make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.
Always end on a positive note. If he starts to give you a few feet of forward, then praise and take the saddle off right then and take him to hand graze. Ride’s over. The next day, build on that. You want to really make it clear that he’s given the right answer to your cue.
Yours is not an insurmountable problem, but it will take patience. I bet you’ll have him going forward in no time![/QUOTE]
My favorite young horse trainers are, more often than not, from WesternWorld. I love the ponying idea. But I’d think hard about the backing up. I think that backing is easier for short, well-muscled stock-breeds. Asking a young, under-muscled 17h WB to do that is a different physical proposition. If you (all) agree, then realize that backing up might not get the same mental job done… precisely because it’s asking different amounts of physical strength from differently-built horses. Don’t inadvertently make it too hard for Baby Horse to get something right.
Take what you like and leave the rest, of course.
Chiming in again because I just read that your youngster is 17hh at age four. OP, I think you are doing a fantastic job and being so kind and receptive to all of the input given here, so I am just going to throw this out there and let you chew on ot. In light of his ginormousness and level of development (without muscle or tone), you might consider taking a big step back in this horse’s workload. I know that the common methodology for 4 y/os is generally to have them going in full training mode, but that is not always congruent with what we now know about how horses grow. The larger a horse is, the slower his/her physical development will be. I would think of this horse in terms of what you would ask of a 2.5 or 3 year old given his structure. That is a lot of horse to put on to growing bones especially in lunging and roundpens. You said you were going to move to the arena, which is better, but he might just be physically overwhelmed at this point. His ribs and spine are still developing which could be painful even if the saddle fits. If he were mine, I would fiddle with him on the ground and pony him this year, maybe doing a little hacking toward the end of the season, and then let him grow all winter and start bringing him along slowly next year. You have a great opportunity to bond with him in hand and then bring that trust to your riding endeavors. Good luck to you.
I have little dressage experience but have broke quite a few colts.
Get him outside as much as possible. Full turnout if possible. Ground drive home everywhere, literally. Miles and miles on trails,pastures,strange places. Get off the lunge,go straight forward in big areas. Ground drive through the barn,into the horse trailer,down the roads.
When you get on again,do it in a familiar paddock,rather than the dreaded round pen. Sit,sit,sit as long as it takes. Literally,no motion,no cues. Sing,read a book,whatever. Mod response to backwards, maybe light leg bumping and maintain light contact. When he goes forwards even one step praise him like crazy. At first,I’d actually get off and give him a treat for a voluntary forward step.
Use the softest possible fat rubber snaffle or a side pull for all this.
Consider clicker training to get through this issue. It really works to help work through big problems or confusion. If you can find a clicker trainer to help you that would be great.
He is eventually going to rear and go over backwards if something is not changed.
Consider a few months of total pasture turn out and rest to become s real horse and to acclimate/recuperate.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275862]
So if you get off and give him a cookie, what are you rewarding him for? Getting off? That is a confusing and mixed message for him. [/QUOTE]
Thanks, you’re right. I meant more refocus, take a breath, not necessarily get a cookie but you are kind to point out that I need to be specific when praising/treating. I’ll be sure to make praise immediate so it’s clear what he’s being told he was good for. Thank you!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275862]
Something else you wrote stood out to me. You mentioned that you got him going forward again only when you sat deep. Is it possible that whoever started him sat deep also and that sort of bodyweight cue is what he understands to mean forward? If you sit with more of a light seat maybe he just doesn’t understand what that means? [/QUOTE]
Certainly is possible, here is the first sales video I saw of him, I can see if I can make the others public too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJi6tXO2HuE&list=LL_IBtWrFg71AcINqw2G83UQ&index=21
She looks springy but not overly driving from the seat. Drives a bit on the long side during canter but not as much during trot. He has better knee action in this than I’ve ever gotten under saddle.
However, mostly sitting deep just gets him to stop going backwards, no necessarily go forward. But I do sit deeper to ask for forward than I would usually. I’m not a teeny tiny person, 5’9 about 145 lbs, so I think my even a small weight shift to the back of my bottom would tell him ‘go’ at least a little.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275862]
I’d take off the spurs - they are a refinement aid and one that might be more confusing to him right now.
I’d go back to the lunge - one person in the saddle, one person leading. Then have the leader on the ground but not using any aids, just there as support, slowly moving farther and farther away. I’d break it down into small chunks since it sounds like maybe the horse knew one type of riding but now needs to learn a little bit different style since his first rider isn’t there to tell you/help you. You need to learn each other’s language. [/QUOTE]
Thanks, I agree with both! Spurs won’t be coming back, and I’m hoping to just be weight in the saddle while he is lunged for the next few training sessions. Eventually, start adding rider aids with reinforcement from the ground.
He came from Germany so everyone warned me that he was probably handled more firmly than by US breeder standards. For that reason, silly business hasn’t been tolerated and I am under the impression he knows I’m in charge. ie: he was growled at if he rushed the person giving him grain, he is expected to kindly allow feet to be picked up, he’s learned patience for fly spray (omg the fly spray was such a thing to start). I have reached out to the trainer at the sales barn that I bought him through, hopefully they’ll lend some insight.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275862]
We’ll be starting my filly u/s in a couple months and what we’re doing now hopefully is preparing her for a smooth transition. Lunging, long lining, hand walking, double lunging . . . simulating leg aids with various techniques, teaching her steering, teaching her voice commands. But the one thing my trainer is adamant about is that the answer is ALWAYS forward.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you’re going to have an amazing foundation to work with! How old is she? So very exciting! Never in a million did I think forward with be the issue with a youngster. I had prepared myself mentally to be rocketed to space, but not stuck in reverse.
He was in a group of geldings until his three year old year when they brought him in to start under saddle, then he was turned out until January-March (this part is fuzzy in my conversations with the sales barn) of this year when he went into training to be sold. I bought him in April and he got here in May. He was being ridden 4-5 times a week but had no turnout, only 1 hour every other day on a hot walker. I sincerely doubt they put much into any ground training, to prepare for u/s or just for manners. He could barely tolerate being booted when he arrived (back feet in particular) but was good on the lunge from the start. It sounds like you have an amazing training plan for your girl and I envy it! Best of luck and thank you so much for the help, please let me know how it goes when you start her!
Thanks again for your advice!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8275885]
If you’ve released when you’ve gotten backward instead of forward then you’ve taught your horse that backward is what you were asking for. Cue and release when you get what you want to teach the horse that release=reward=right thing. So cue + backward movement + release = reward for doing the right thing. [/QUOTE]
Well, doy! Le sigh 
The thing is, it feels sooo incredibly like a rein back. Like he thinks I’m asking for it. Although disclaimer, I think he knows I’m not at least a bit, as he does put his ears back and swish tail etc.
I’m trying to picture the aid when he does it and I do think I release my leg completely when he’s backing. He tends to keep backing until I sit super hard and deliberately back, so I think I take my leg off and sit heavy and deep. I’ll ask the trainer #2 to watch closely for it next ride.
But maybe even just me doing that once has confused him enough to think I want backwards… and maybe you’ve just found the root of my problem and saved me a lot of frustration. And oh no I can’t believe I’m likely the cause of all this.
I don’t expect you all to read the following pony log, but it’s helpful to me to keep it all together and I wanted to look at how many rides we’d had. So if any of you do read it and has a thought, yay! …
Trainer #1 started June 12, and has had 23 sessions since, he was away teaching clinics for some of the time. The first 8 sessions were getting desensitized to the mounting block (it was a major issue), he took a lot of time and patience to make it absolutely a non-thing to the horse. He went from bolting away to standing quietly even if you flap around, it’s great. The next 5 sessions were under saddle with a ‘pony lead’ person. I was able to come out for the last one of those and he followed me more freely than the woman who had been assisting from the ground and he walked and trotted without assistance after that for 7 trainer sessions. They had 2 sessions in the sand arena and were seemingly making progress. We were all pretty jazzed up. Then the day he and trainer #1 couldn’t agree to go forward, and the two sessions last week were not very productive.
I’ve ridden him 9 times. I’m the boss lady at work so it’s hard to leave midday and he’s a little too excited to get out and graze before work, its always thunderstorming after work (oh, Florida), a big part of why the trainer was working him primarily. I was lunging before work before but he really seems to be more settled when he has a little turnout first thing. And when the trainer was at clinics, either I lunged and rode as below or lunged to exercise 5 days a week.
Ride 1: (may 31) Got on for first time with a non-horsey assistant, hard to mount but swung up anyway, hardly moved. Over lunged so I let pony leading be enough.
Ride 2: (june 4) Was a spooky day. Learned two things, don’t ride on spooky days and the mounting block was going to be a problem that needed to be overcome before training. he tripped on it and panicked a bit in his haste to get away, I didn’t have my leg over, came off hard when his hind end slipped under him. Trainer started the next week.
Ride 3 (june 27) My first ride after we got the mounting squared away. With the trainer right after he’d started successfully walking forward. Good boy, a little sticky but more just didn’t understand leg, worked a bit on steering.
Ride 4 (july 10) alone, walked nicely, didn’t ask for trot
—july 14 first time in the sand arena with trainer, walk/trot. Woop! –
—july 15 he went well in the sand arena, was a bit spooky as described by trainer due to weather but moved forward well —
Ride 5: (July 18) Alone, he went backwards. This is the one I described in my original post as “he won.” I didn’t know what to do to combat it. So this is where I ruined my pony?
Ride 6: (july 21) The groom assisted from the ground, went backwards but got him forwards with the helper.
Session 7: (july 22) The barn owner/Trainer #2 came out and helped with the ‘hard rein turn’ and we got going nicely, OK trot but not overtly forward, quiet with exterior distractions though so that was nice.
–trainer argument with horse on july 27–
Ride 8: (july 30) Rode alone, he went backwards harder than the first time. Lots of hard rein turns, eventually used vocal encouragement when he was standing in addition to leg and got two walk circles. Didn’t ask for more.
— july 31, GP trainer came out to help. after lunging a few min w/t/c she immediately said vet him first, sticky front right leg was enough for her to want to verify soundness
–august 3 vet came out, was not concerned much with his stiffer leg, flexed, blocked the foot that toes-in (he has two very different sized and angled hooves). Suggested moving his breakover, the farrier came the next day, he was due. Rode for her after lunge flexions. Most I’ve ever got out of him but felt stiff. He flexed well for everything but a neck pressure point and right leg up at the same time, came off that very poorly. So while the vet thought all was well except his feet imbalance, I called the massage therapist. She came last week and he looooved it.
– august 6 trainer #1 back in town, lunged. Saddle fitter back out. He was grinding his teeth (hadn’t done this since first arriving) and noticeably stiff to me and so said the trainer as well. Wondered if he was anxious since their last meeting was rough? Behaved well though.
–august 7 trainer lunged in grass arena, said he wasn’t grinding or stiff.
– august 10 I asked trainer #2 to peek for soundness during trainer #1’s session since I couldn’t be there. She ended up helping him out as the horse was sticky. Both said he seems 100% sound. trainer #2 said she just clapped behind and encouraged, they got a few circles w/t before finding a stopping point
–august 11 trainer #2 helped again, he was a bit spooky from noise at neighboring property and was shy about mounting again. Went backwards, needed ground encouragement to move forward. Trainer #1 said he doesn’t want to continue, asked me to find a crash rider. Trainer #2 suggested going back to basics with ground work and long lining.
–august 13 Massage and lunged after, he was very smooth and loose after. Seemed to immensely enjoy his massage and had some obviously sore spots. Gave him the weekend off besides ‘adventure walks’ and starting back tomorrow and all of your advice
Sorry so long!!
[QUOTE=mvp;8276158]
My favorite young horse trainers are, more often than not, from WesternWorld. I love the ponying idea. But I’d think hard about the backing up. I think that backing is easier for short, well-muscled stock-breeds. Asking a young, under-muscled 17h WB to do that is a different physical proposition. If you (all) agree, then realize that backing up might not get the same mental job done… precisely because it’s asking different amounts of physical strength from differently-built horses. Don’t inadvertently make it too hard for Baby Horse to get something right.
Take what you like and leave the rest, of course.[/QUOTE]
Hey, great point!
He’s a gangly bird and you’re right about being different strength-wise than a stocky li’l quarter horse.
Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu is in Wellington. He is one of the few trainers who is most empathetic to the horse that I have met.
From your timeline above, he seems like a thoroughly confused horse. Did you buy him sight unseen or did you go over and watch him and try him? I ask because he just doesn’t sound like a horse who has had a lot of training or really any time under saddle and is just completely nervous and anxious and doesn’t know what to do at all.
I agree go back to basics. Ease off a bit. Pretend like he’s never been started and take it from there. It will help you develop your own language so that he will better understand you.
I also agree that with such a large horse, at this age he is likely so gangly and growth-spurty and physically uncoordinated that less is more for now.
If he’s a smart horse, then he won’t have any problems if you go back to basics and start him all over again. He’ll learn quickly and you’ll have a much better understanding of each other.
My filly is learning so fast it amazes me. The trainer always comments on how she’s better than the last time and we can just pick up and move forward - I only do my homework once a week (we do other things, I just don’t want to drill her and do too much lunging), but since she’s smart she progresses quickly. (I do have a blog in my signature line if you are interested in seeing what we’ve been doing.)
Give it time. Get some good things going and then give him a little time off. Let him be out in the pasture to grow up and run around and graze and socialize. Someone on another thread (or was it this one?) mentioned working their horse for a couple weeks, then a couple weeks off, etc. (was it BTDT?). That seems like a good plan for a big, growing youngster.
ETA: I went back and looked at his video. He’s lovely. I would be a little concerned that he went from this lovely WTC to now not even wanting to go forward. Did you get the right horse? Was it a bait-and-switch? That’s a pretty dramatic change, it seems like, based on how he was going in the video. Did you vet him before he left for the US? Did you vet him after he arrived? It is a big head-scratcher, to say the least!
I love Pluvinel’s suggestion to be his advocate. My horse wasn’t young, but misunderstood all over the place. Time after time, I had to stand up to really experienced people, people held in high esteem by the horse community of Eastern Massachusetts.
I was terrified, standing up to these people, and saying, “No. You’re wrong.” Or standing up to my friends, when they asked why I wasn’t continuing on with that trainer/vet/farrier. But I was more terrified of letting my horse down.
And in the end, I was proven right. She was broken, not obstinate and unwilling.
Believe in yourself, believe in him, and the two of you will blossom.
(Professional help is good - just don’t let them deliver a CTJ session, or convince you that you’re sense of what’s what is wrong.)
LAuclair, I just wanted to thank you for your posts. You are so open to all the comments, and appreciative, it is quite refreshing. Your boy is lovely!
Have you been using any verbal cues when you are working on the lunge, that might transfer to under saddle?
It does seem logical to go back to lunging, then with a passive rider up, then with rider giving aids, and eventually just the rider. Do you know if he had any experience with ground drivng?
The suggestion to pony him with a solid friend is great, too. Do you have the available space to be “outside the sand box”? If the horse is confused or unsure in the arena, you would not want to make it a negative place for him.
I hope you will continue to update on your progress together, especially when the lightbulb goes on for him! From the video, there is promise that he will find his forward gear.
‘‘He flexed well for everything but a neck pressure point and right leg up at the same time, came off that very poorly.’’
This is really significant to me, and would be worth looking into further particularly as he’s a big horse who has traveled a long way in a perhaps too constrictive space.
I haven’t read all the new replies but I wanted to mention 2 things:
He might be sore in some way that won’t be obvious jogging him for lameness. Just assume he’s sore, actually. He’s big, a big mover, & still growing (he’s beautiful btw, congratulations!) With soreness in mind, I’ve had luck adding a supplement called Magrestore. Do a search for it here & you can read lots about it. It’ll help a lot if he’s got muscle soreness due to tension &/ or compensating for mild soreness wherever he might be feeling ouchy. I like to think of it as a mild muscle relaxant, and it’s a can’t hurt, might help kind of thing. It’s sold by performance equine & it’s cheap.
Also, to keep things as simple as humanly possible, if I were you I’d plan on having someone hold him while you mount and lead you a good way from the mounting block for the next few months. Next ride, get someone to hold him calmly, lead him away calmly, then drop the rein and you keep walking in a long straight line or big circle, then tell him he’s a GOOD BOY, hop off, & you’re done for the day. Try making a plan to do that for a month, gradually decreasing how much leading your helper does & you increase how much walking then trotting you ask for. All super easy, loose rein, really set him up for success. By planning to move forward at this level of simplicity, calmness and making it easy on both of you for a few months, I think you might find yourself progressing faster almost by accident than you expect.
He looks like a lovely boy in the sales video.
Based on more than a few things you posted, I would treat this horse for ulcers. He has had many changes with being imported and in a serious work schedule. And being spooky or over reactive, grinding his teeth, being girthy, and not wanting to go forward are pretty classic signs of ulcers.
