The information in post #67 sheds a whole new light on the matter. Anytime a horse is going well, and he was going well even at your farm for a while, and then things turn bad, there is almost ALWAYS a physical cause.
You haven’t mentioned having the saddle fit professionally checked. Have you?
Yes, she’s mentioned that he has a custom saddle that was recently adjusted for him with an excellent fit.
I, too, would guess he is sore somewhere - especially if he’s got pressure points in his neck. I’d want to get that sorted out before continuing on.
[QUOTE=rockymouse;8276661]
Hey, great point!
He’s a gangly bird and you’re right about being different strength-wise than a stocky li’l quarter horse.[/QUOTE]
Glad that makes sense.
Yanno, I have wanted to take some of what the Buck Brannaman types have and apply that to the English-discipline horses I ride. All well and good as far as the stuff for the inside of the horse’s head goes. And I’m wondering if all the slow stuff they do can help a horse get aware of his body and then help him with some of the postural strength it takes to get straight under saddle faster.
But! I’m paranoid about how well the small turns and backing and pivoting and all work for a larger, weaker horse. After all, we bred WBs (especially) to be quite large and slow-maturing. If you watch some of these gangly birds move, it seems to take them a long time to get a message for their brain to, say, a back foot.
Of course, Brannaman et. al. don’t mean for anyone to spend 3 hours turning their colt around on the end of a lead rope as happens in the clinic setting. Rather the clinic genre creates that appearance. In practice, I think this is much shorter, less repetitive and more tailored to the individual horse’s mind and body: You only do as much as you need to get to get the colt pretty responsive (given his body and attention span) for that particular day.
I can’t believe any horse’s stifles would hold up for that clinic-length school. But I have never found confirmation of my worry one way or another. My point in all this-- trying to mix n match training schools developed around different types of horses-- is to think about how much the particular body type of the horse necessitates one approach or another.
And On Topic for the OP. I didn’t watch all of the video, but what I see is a cooperative, unscrewed-up horse who is letting himself be ridden by a very skilled auction-type rider. She’s sending him forward and keeping him directed between her leg and hand. He’s not asked for things that require education or even a whole lot of obedience on his part-- no transitions to speak of, no coming of the rail and all.
So what you are seeing is a nice-moving horse. But that video shouldn’t tell you much about his education. I think you are mainly seeing his rider’s skill there.
What we (American and ammies) tend to want from a horse who we consider “broke” is really different. You wouldn’t be happy if someone told you to just “get it done” and send you horse into a big trot and even longer canter (with no trained transition, just your seat and great timing and a corner). My guess is that you’d feel really insecure up there.
So know that you are asking your horse for something different than was his sales barn rider. No problem. He can get there and he’s got great material to work with. But he doesn’t know what you’d assume he knows if you thought that that rider was getting that because she wanted the kind of ride that you do.
how very true!t is much, much better to progress slowly than to have to undo poor training.:yes: A 4-year old horse is still a baby.:winkgrin:
What a gorgeous horse you have there. You are taking a very kind and thoughtful approach so I’m confident you’ll bring him round. But should you happen to grow weary of this training challenge and feel the need to simply give him away to a good home, I’m your wo(man)! 
Hi all! I’ve been delayed responding lately and busy with work, thanks so much for the continued support! We have not ridden since posting.
He had is teeth done last week and the dentist said they were very pointy and he had some ulcers in his mouth from it so that could be a huge part of the backing up, an evasion to the bit on his pointy fangs. I have not ridden since but he’s been lunged in tack twice since and went well.
The last lunge I used the sand arena and moved our circle up and down the line so he had some ‘long sides.’ I got two main bits of info from this:
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8276892]
From your timeline above, he seems like a thoroughly confused horse. Did you buy him sight unseen or did you go over and watch him and try him? I ask because he just doesn’t sound like a horse who has had a lot of training or really any time under saddle and is just completely nervous and anxious and doesn’t know what to do at all. [/QUOTE]
I bought him from videos, did not get to try him. I had three under saddle videos, one ‘personality’ video and two for flexions. The German owner said that he was turned out with a group of geldings (breeding farm) until his three year old year when he was started. He supposedly showed that year (and I can find placings with the name they used but no photos so I can’t totally verify it was him - his passport was unnamed), which is what makes me feel like we went so backwards. But then he was turned back out to grow and came back in early this year. I never got a straight answer how long he was under saddle for this year before he came here in May. I have reached out to them but haven’t heard back yet. I went through a broker and communication was a bit difficult with the owner themselves as I speak no German.
PS: No, I would not normally have purchased a horse this way. I tried several and looked all over the US. Everything in my pricepoint was older than I was hoping to have for a long-term partner. I vetted four other horses before finding him and was a bit more instantaneous about snagging him than I was with the others. He was vetted reeeeally thoroughly by the Oldenburg licensing vet and then again upon arrival of course.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8276892]
I agree go back to basics. Ease off a bit. Pretend like he’s never been started and take it from there. It will help you develop your own language so that he will better understand you.
I also agree that with such a large horse, at this age he is likely so gangly and growth-spurty and physically uncoordinated that less is more for now. [/QUOTE]
I’ve talked a lot about growth spurts lately, remembering how much my legs hurt when I was a young. I never want him to be sore or put his body through too much, it’s OK if we’re a bit behind! We’re going to work on the vocal cues outside the round pend, get the mounting block worked through again and start slow. I can’t see any harm from starting at the beginning again, making sure that all the basics are covered then moving forward one piece at a time.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8276892]My filly is learning so fast it amazes me. (I do have a blog in my signature line if you are interested in seeing what we’ve been doing.)
Give it time. Get some good things going and then give him a little time off. Someone on another thread (or was it this one?) mentioned working their horse for a couple weeks, then a couple weeks off, etc. (was it BTDT?). That seems like a good plan for a big, growing youngster.[/QUOTE]
Oh goody! I’ll check that out!! I’m trying to soak up everything I can! And yes, it was this one! Someone said they did three weeks on, three weeks off I believe. I’m going to try and find the balance with him!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8276892]
ETA: I went back and looked at his video. He’s lovely. I would be a little concerned that he went from this lovely WTC to now not even wanting to go forward. Did you get the right horse? Was it a bait-and-switch? That’s a pretty dramatic change, it seems like, based on how he was going in the video. Did you vet him before he left for the US? Did you vet him after he arrived? [/QUOTE]
That’s why I was so concerned, too! And yes, definitely the right horse. I can see his brand and he has a couple signature things that are definitely him. Most everyone I know who has imported a lot have some story of the same thing, that a horse was whipped around to get videos and never really trained. One of the trainers has told me of unstarted horses that they got on in person to show her their movement. Not sure why or how they do it but it wasn’t a great foundation, that’s for sure!
Thank you all again for the advice!
I had planned to work with him with a rider up last week but took a little more time just lunging then he got his teeth done Tuesday. I am very hopeful that his sharp toothies are a big part of the problem and am working with one of the trainers this week. I’ve decided to take each day as it comes and let him dictate the pace. For example, if he’s back to being OK with mounting, we’ll move on to working with the trainer. If he moves forward and lunges normally with me on and someone on the ground, we’ll start adding in rider cues then we’ll remove the line, then we’ll remove the ground person. But I’m only going to move on to the next step when he’s completely mastered the first one. If the whole process takes a week or takes a year, that’s just fine.
But first, I mentioned a few times below and above that I think his lunging vocal cues aren’t as solid outside the lunge ring as I had thought and we need to focus there and on balance for a bit. I had hoped to be back on last week and have updates for you but I think going back to the basics seems like a really sensible place to start, as frustrating as it is to not be able to ride! I’ll keep you posted on our progress, I’m sure new challenges are going to pop up. I’m hoping to rig some sort of camera so I can video even lunge sessions and see anything I’m missing on the ground. I look forward to telling you all how the first ride goes! I have all of your encouraging voices in my head and am feeling good about my plan, hopefully I’ll have some positive updates for you soon!
Thanks so much for your help! We have been using verbal cues, but I think that he doesn’t respond quite as well as I had thought. He responds nearly instantly in the round pen to ter-ot, can-ter, and waaaalk, brrrrrr, walk on, etc but I lunged him in the arena the other day and he was too distracted to respond quickly. So I’m going to take more time lunging in the grass until he can focus on the commands in more situations.
[QUOTE=keysfins;8277065]
Do you know if he had any experience with ground drivng? [/QUOTE]
That I don’t know, but we’re going to work on quite a bit more ground work as well, specifically long lining. I think training him to listen to his humans and listen for the aid will be key.
[QUOTE=keysfins;8277065]
The suggestion to pony him with a solid friend is great, too. Do you have the available space to be “outside the sand box”? If the horse is confused or unsure in the arena, you would not want to make it a negative place for him.
I hope you will continue to update on your progress together, especially when the lightbulb goes on for him! From the video, there is promise that he will find his forward gear. :)[/QUOTE]
I’m not positive we’ll have a friend available for pony-ing any time soon. Perhaps come winter? He is definitely the playful pony in the barn so at the moment it might not be the beeesst idea but I’d love to see if it helps eventually! Thanks so much for your help! I’ll keep you updated! ? I’m thinking of blogging our progress as a way to keep up with my ‘pony log’!
[QUOTE=raff;8277088]’‘He flexed well for everything but a neck pressure point and right leg up at the same time, came off that very poorly.’’
This is really significant to me, and would be worth looking into further particularly as he’s a big horse who has traveled a long way in a perhaps too constrictive space.[/QUOTE]
It worried me as well. My regular vet is absolutely excellent, world class. She happens to be out of town for the first time ever for a few weeks so her associate (who is also great) came out. She spent a lot of time with him and really evaluated everything but I am planning on asking the regular vet to come back out when she’s back, just to double check. When he was massaged, he was sore in the spot that he flexed badly from the pressure and that really seemed to help. I plan on having him worked on at least a few times a month (it’s the same price as a training session and I’m kicking back the training since I cut his schedule, so yay! Health first!). Since the vetting, shoeing and massage though, he has been very, very smooth. I think the combination of working on his imbalanced feet and loosening him up through the neck and back seems to help him use his body in a way that he doesn’t get so bunched up. I’ll let you know how it goes when I can get the vet back out!
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8277182]I haven’t read all the new replies but I wanted to mention 2 things:
He might be sore in some way that won’t be obvious jogging him for lameness. Just assume he’s sore, actually. He’s big, a big mover, & still growing (he’s beautiful btw, congratulations!) With soreness in mind, I’ve had luck adding a supplement called Magrestore. [/QUOTE]
I hate for a baby to be sore! I’ll look that up, thanks! I try to make sure he gets nice and loose before asking for much, we have a decent amount of walk breaks, cold water hosing on his shoulders, etc. And now I’m adding the massage but I’d really love to help him stay as healthy as possible.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8277182]
Also, to keep things as simple as humanly possible, if I were you I’d plan on having someone hold him while you mount and lead you a good way from the mounting block for the next few months. Next ride, get someone to hold him calmly, lead him away calmly, then drop the rein and you keep walking in a long straight line or big circle, then tell him he’s a GOOD BOY, hop off, & you’re done for the day. Try making a plan to do that for a month, gradually decreasing how much leading your helper does & you increase how much walking then trotting you ask for. All super easy, loose rein, really set him up for success. By planning to move forward at this level of simplicity, calmness and making it easy on both of you for a few months, I think you might find yourself progressing faster almost by accident than you expect.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I think you’re right, easy does it is the way to go! I really like the idea of just a little bit being enough for the day. I can already picture his excited little face when he realizes one circle is all I want. I think building on the happiness that will come from successful small sessions will be key to us working through this.
But currently, if someone were to lead him and then step away, he probably would not continue walking. However – he did just get his teeth done and I’m hoping that has something to do with it. The next time I’m on, I feel like I’ll have a lot to report back! Thanks again!! Excited to get going!
[QUOTE=no.stirrups;8277243]The information in post #67 sheds a whole new light on the matter. Anytime a horse is going well, and he was going well even at your farm for a while, and then things turn bad, there is almost ALWAYS a physical cause.
[QUOTE=mvp;8277576]
I’m paranoid about how well the small turns and backing and pivoting and all work for a larger, weaker horse. After all, we bred WBs (especially) to be quite large and slow-maturing. If you watch some of these gangly birds move, it seems to take them a long time to get a message for their brain to, say, a back foot.
shorter, less repetitive and more tailored to the individual horse’s mind and body: You only do as much as you need to get to get the colt pretty responsive (given his body and attention span) for that particular day.
My point in all this-- trying to mix n match training schools developed around different types of horses-- is to think about how much the particular body type of the horse necessitates one approach or another. [/QUOTE]
Without over-rationalizing a horse that isn’t necessarily a rational being, I’ve been trying to think of his entire body during the work. Another thing that was super apparent lunging outside of our familiar round pen, he was even more counter-bent on his weak side. I think he’ll really do well if he gets some support learning how to use his body while taking into account that his body isn’t done growing yet. He is a big guy that is very unaware of his body in general so I think it’s my job to keep his body in mind, especially when he doesn’t. I do, however, find it more difficult on the ground to teach him to use his back and come through without using apparatus to make him round in the front. I don’t really want his nose down and in at this age and stage in development.
[QUOTE=mvp;8277576]
And On Topic for the OP. I didn’t watch all of the video, but what I see is a cooperative, unscrewed-up horse who is letting himself be ridden by a very skilled auction-type rider. She’s sending him forward and keeping him directed between her leg and hand. He’s not asked for things that require education or even a whole lot of obedience on his part-- no transitions to speak of, no coming of the rail and all.
So what you are seeing is a nice-moving horse. But that video shouldn’t tell you much about his education. I think you are mainly seeing his rider’s skill there.
What we (American and ammies) tend to want from a horse who we consider “broke” is really different.
So know that you are asking your horse for something different than was his sales barn rider. No problem. He can get there and he’s got great material to work with. But he doesn’t know what you’d assume he knows if you thought that that rider was getting that because she wanted the kind of ride that you do.[/QUOTE]
I think you’re spot on. Thank you for saying that so concisely. It truly bothered me to think that he could go so brilliantly and then not understand AT ALL what we’re asking him to do. But you’re right, the videos I have are demonstration videos to showcase his gaits. He is being sent forward without much concern for packaging.
When he first arrived and we got over mounting insecurities, he didn’t move off the leg one teeny tiny bit. He physically turned his face around and looked at you to ask what you were doing up there. I have a feeling that his sales rider made him go before he could think about anything else. Then hopped off and they were done. Not much training occurred.
What does still rattle me though, is that the trainer had made some progress. He was getting w/t without a ground assistant, they’d moved to the sand arena and he was a bit more forward and steered better outside the round pen. Then the backwards reaction set in. I am hoping it’s a combination of being over-faced, his sharp teeth bothering him with the bit and then me confusing him further after the backing up started by releasing my leg when he backed.
I’ve been leaning toward thinking too that while he was seemingly going well, perhaps we took it one step too fast; we never lunged with a rider on. We went right from learning to be calm while mounting, to rider up and being lead with treats, to the trainer getting him to w/t on his own. But perhaps if I could have assisted more as the lunger during the sessions with the trainer up, he would have associated the leg/forward cues more concretely? Orrrr maybe this whole thing is about his teeth and the next time I get on he’ll be magical! Oh my pony. 
[QUOTE=visorvet;8280336]
What a gorgeous horse you have there. You are taking a very kind and thoughtful approach so I’m confident you’ll bring him round. But should you happen to grow weary of this training challenge and feel the need to simply give him away to a good home, I’m your wo(man)! :-)[/QUOTE]
Never! 
You’ll have to pry him from my grip! I love his smoochy face! Thanks for the encouragement!
Good observations. This horse is lucky to have such a thoughtful owner directing his training.
Some things your post make me remember from the early stages of my mare.
his knowing (intellectually) what we want, e.g. “leg means move away from it or go forward”
the horse knowing how to slow down and think if he’s not sure what to do because he doesn’t yet know that intellectually-correct answer.
the horse must be able to physically demonstrate his knowledge with his body.
So he could be missing any one of those three things and end up behaving wrong. The thinking rider/trainer parses these causes of “the wrong answer” out. With young horses, almost any one of the three can be the biggest obstacle.
With my mare, this meant that we taught her about commands and how to carry herself (a bit) on the lunge line. We expected better physical performance there than she’d be able to deliver under saddle… with me to balance as well as herself. All my rides were really about big, soft turns and making things easier than they had been on the lunge. I didn’t worry about her using her back, though I praised her when she got balanced enough to offer that. And, like you, I didn’t want her head too low. But otherwise, I left it alone. If she could get at all square underneath me with her body, that was success.
I hope this logic makes sense.
This is a great thread. LAuclair, I appreciate your posts and thoughts about your re-start with this horse. And the suggestions and shared experiences make for a great training conversation.
I have not read all of the previous responses, but I had a very sticky youngster and these are the few things that really helped me:
There also has to be a foundation of good, consistent riding. I felt like my horse required a different level of contact every day, which was confusing to me. However, I learned it’s completely normal as some horses change in their balance and understanding of how to use and react to the bit. My balky youngster came through the other side and is now doing fourth level. Keep the faith!
OP as far as verbal cues go he has to learn them in English first or you will have to learn to speak German.
OP, glad that he got his teeth done and hopefully that will help. If he’s just four, he’ll probably need them done every six months for a couple more times.
Good point from Cat Tap if he’s learned his verbal cues in another language! Another good reason for starting with the basics with him so that he can learn your body language and voice commands.
What are your goals with him? I really hope my questions don’t come across as negative because I in no way mean them as such, but why did you buy him? What were you looking for that you couldn’t find in the US? Are you an experienced UL rider who has experience with such a big and powerful moving horse? The times that you did w/t him, how was the ride for you? I leased a semi-retired UL eventer once, and it really opened my eyes to what it means to be able to ride a horse like that - big, big-moving, forward, etc. Made me realize that’s not what I’m going for! :eek: I’ll stick to my small 15-ish hand horses, thankyouverymuch!
I’m honestly just curious. I would look at your horse’s sale video and drool and think what a gorgeous horse. But I think about my knee pain and my back pain and I’ll let someone else do the riding on such a lovely prospect.
Good luck to you and your horse. He’s lucky to have someone who is so considerate and thoughtful about what might be going on with him.
[QUOTE=mvp;8286521]
[QUOTE=mvp;8286521]
3. I did a lot of the teaching about “Here’s how to take correction”-- how to tolerate confusion or waiting or not being sure and spooky-- in hand. [/QUOTE]
I like how you mention tolerating confusion. I think it’s my job to be precise in my requests, but every now and then he’s not going to understand me and if he trusts me and thinks through that confusion he’ll avoid worrying and we’ll have a happy boy. He’s a worrier in general, he still does the little bottom lip wiggle too, but once he absorbs what you’re saying he settles down a little bit. He was not at all spooky today which was nice! I worked in the round pen so I could do mounting without him being distracted and he still looked around a bit but I think it was a good choice. He was comfortable, settled in, lengthened his stride, seemed happy. He stood perfectly stock still for a bunch of up and downs on the mounting block and two actual mounts. So thankfully, that isn’t an issue again! Yay! One small step!
Thanks! I know you have to take everything with a grain of salt and think through problems for yourself and your situation but it’s really lovely to have such a nice community to share experiences with! I feel very fortunate to have found these forums when I did!
[QUOTE=DressageLin;8286866]
[QUOTE=DressageLin;8286866]
4. Use the whip correctly behind the leg – I used to tap with the whip on the haunches, but I learned to use it right behind my leg and it helps reinforce the correct response to the leg.
5. If at all possible, work with a good young horse trainer – I went through a lot of heart ache that I think a good trainer could have helped me avoid. [/QUOTE]
I’m going to add the whip when I finally get on again. He’s not shy of it on the ground so I have reason to assume he won’t freak out under saddle. But first we’ll start with the ground person with a lunge whip behind to just get “go” in his noodle. And yes, trainers are key! I’ve been stumbling around trying to figure that out and it’s a little disorienting but we’ll get it squared away soon hopefully. It’s very weird to not have MY trainer, I rode with the same person forever before my pony hiatus and I like having that comradery and expertise on hand for tricky situations!
[QUOTE=DressageLin;8286866]
6. Don’t be afraid to hop off and lunge to make a point.
7. Be consequent and clear with your aids. Forget about where the head is. If you put your leg on, insist on a reaction. This doesn’t require a huge fight, but it may require a thump with the leg or a solid tap with the whip. Being very clear and separating the hands and legs for a while can help instill the fun in forward again. My horse really loved the exercise to trot down the long side, walk in corner, turn in corner to head back down same long side, and pick up big power trot down long side. You repeat this until they are really looking forward to the down and up transitions and start taking you forward down the long side. [/QUOTE]
Thanks for sharing that exercise! At the moment, he wouldn’t move forward at all and physically wheels backwards so the thump didn’t really have any effect. I’m hoping though with starting with the ground person to sync up the aids, the whip for backup, his teeth being done and so on that we’ll get some forward in there somehow.
So glad to hear you and your horse are doing so well! Thanks for the encouragement!!
He’s been doing very well with the English cues! The first week not so much, but he quickly connected the words with the flick of the lunge whip. Slowing to words has been the hardest, but brrrrrr gets him every time instantly. And he finally responds to “aaannnndd waaaaalk” as well then Brrrr for halt. He was very very very responsive in the round pen to all English cues. But then when we worked in the sand arena, he was either ignoring me or in the round pen he knows the routine and that part of the puzzle was missing in the arena. Today in the round pen though, he was slower to respond. So when he was slow to trot I intensified my request, raised the whip, swooshed it. I asked for a lot of transitions without driving him batty and kept it short today. By the end he was definitely quicker to respond but we’ll need to work on it more than I realized previously.
Yep! We’re going to do four months this next go just to make sure they don’t get the best of him again. He really enjoyed it
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8287331]
What are your goals with him? I really hope my questions don’t come across as negative because I in no way mean them as such, but why did you buy him? What were you looking for that you couldn’t find in the US? Are you an experienced UL rider who has experience with such a big and powerful moving horse? The times that you did w/t him, how was the ride for you? [/QUOTE]
I’m hard to rattle these days, don’t worry! I was NOT looking for a baby, I’ll tell you that much. I am not an UL rider, I rode eventers previously through prelim, but was off for about six years (I know!) toward the end of college and during starting businesses. I had been riding dressage mostly in college with a leased friend since my guy didn’t make the California to Boston adventure with me. I’ve been in Florida for about three years and decided that I needed ponies in my life again and leased another horse here to get my feet wet after so many years off. He was lovely but teensy, and I needed to find my own buddy again. I do know that I want to compete again, but I’m a busy gal and chasing ribbons isn’t going to be my main concern. I more love the idea of riding tests for the judge’s feedback and a marker of progress. I also love to clinic (I love to school XC too but that’s not going to be this guy’s forte!). I wanted a dressage horse with a nice temperament, some natural cadence and height. I am not ridiculously tall at 5’9, but I have a very short torso and super long legs. For comparison: our saddle was custom made and is a 19" seat to accommodate my thigh, I’m 145ish lbs. I tried quite a few horses that were 16.2/16.3, my leg hangs below the belly of most horses that height and I just knew that I wanted to be comfortable in the stirrups for a lifetime commitment so 17+ was my main criteria. (PS: Thankfully, I love the big movements under saddle, I feel awkward with a shorter stride.)
Right off the bat, prices jump up with that height requirement. Most of the horses in my price-point were 12+ years which would have honestly been a great fit since I would have loved someone established, buuuuuut I am a forever horse owner. An entrepreneur, I don’t know if I’ll be able to afford a second buddy in the near future and I wanted a horse that we could have a long career together. My ideal purchase would have been that perfect 6/7 age. I did find a few other youngsters in the US and one local 12 year old that I looooved but he didn’t vet (PS: If you know someone who wants the loveliest horse ever and can deal with some soundness issues, message me!). I vetted 3 US horses and 1 overseas before finding my guy. I was down to three horses that I was debating between, vetted the first pick, he failed. Vetted the next, he failed, etc. That was not a fun time. So when I saw my guy’s initial video (the one you saw), I jumped on it. He’s a dreamboat. I took two months debating between the first two, but decided on my guy in 2 hours. I really stress about most decisions, but I knew he was the one. I worried I was a ninny while I waited for him, and then worried that he out-horsed me when he got here, but he’s my guy. He vetted clean in Europe and here by the way, he has old popped stifles that my (very strict) vet didn’t love and of course the mis matchy feet, but I’ve come to expect that in big ones.
When on, I expected him to feel squiggly. He toes in a bit on his right front (the leg I was worried was stiff), and sometimes swings out a little with his left hind at the trot. But he feels lovely under saddle to me, not squiggly at all. That being said, he and I have trotted a handful of times and it’s not been very forward (hence this post!), so I haven’t really experienced his big movements.
The passage he gave on the line the other day was the most floaty, ridiculously suspended thing ever so I finally feel like this wasn’t the dumbest thing I’ve ever done. But we have to get walking first. Sorry, that was longer than I intended!
Thanks again, all! We had a nice productive day today and I’m looking forward to building on that!
Never add energy when the horse is going the wrong way, it only makes them go the wrong way faster.
Hi LAuclair-
this thread has been very informative. This past winter I had the opportunity to ‘restart’ a 4 year old mare that belonged to a friend. A trainer had started her and after a while didn’t do much with her after having her a year. I was surprised when I got her, we thought she was being ridden several times a week. When I got her she barely understood the concept of the lunge line, and had had zero go/forward and had no steering or balance. She was literally stuck when I got on her…and she wouldn’t let me mount her from a mounting block. I had to do what you are doing- which was start from scratch. introduce her back to the lunge line and teach her the cues again and I had to teach her the idea of forward from the ground with lots of rewards. like you, the only treat she got was when she got the bit.
My only real struggle was the amount of rein I gave her…how do I keep her in contact with the bit without cranking her in too much or throwing her away. I did use the side reins to help me with this…
After a while, I had her very forward thinking at walk and trot, and had introduced her to baby sized leg yields and shoulder fore. When we started canter it was the same thing, I had to teach her the idea of going really big at the canter until she could figure out the balance thing. Within 5 months, I had her back on track. It was a fun experience for me, as it was a great learning experience for me as I am getting my own young horse…and she was a great mare- she was so smart and willing. I hope you have the same success.
Keep us updated on your journey!
[QUOTE=LAuclair;8287660]
I think encouraging him to slow down and think through what I am asking is key. However I’m not totally positive how to tell him to do that besides what I currently do, which is tell him it’s ok when he shows worry. I lunged this morning with the thought to work on our vocal cues (more on that below). He was VERY listen-y today, more so than usual. He usually looks in at you, asking for direction. If I start talking to him and he’s trying to figure out what I’m saying, he looks and listens harder. He’s very receptive to his people, just doesn’t always know what we mean. So I was very particular with how, when and what I said today. He was still not as quick to transition as he had been. So we did a lot of transitions, walk-trot, trot-canter, walk-halt. Just to get the response back. We’ll have to refine that. Trot to canter on his good side was the most difficult today, but he understood after a few tries.
I like how you mention tolerating confusion. I think it’s my job to be precise in my requests, but every now and then he’s not going to understand me and if he trusts me and thinks through that confusion he’ll avoid worrying and we’ll have a happy boy. He’s a worrier in general, he still does the little bottom lip wiggle too, but once he absorbs what you’re saying he settles down a little bit. He was not at all spooky today which was nice! I worked in the round pen so I could do mounting without him being distracted and he still looked around a bit but I think it was a good choice. He was comfortable, settled in, lengthened his stride, seemed happy. He stood perfectly stock still for a bunch of up and downs on the mounting block and two actual mounts. So thankfully, that isn’t an issue again! Yay! One small step! [/QUOTE]
The short answer to your question is to slow down the conversation between you, on your side.
So training a horse is
“I ask for X”
He gives me “X1” (not quite what I asked for).
“I ask for X” (maybe I increase pressure for an older or very secure horse. For a young one, I might just deliver the same signal"
“He gives me X” (hopefully. I might give me X2 or X3-- variants on what I meant, guesses.)
The key here is to wait a little longer before you re-ask. That pause does a lot:
It lets him know it’s ok to experiment. He doesn’t get a new signal or a harsher one just because his first ventured guess was wrong.
It lets him do the mental work of figuring out what you want.
It lets him know the right answer…. but take a minute to arrange his body to do it…. or get over any little work-ethic stuckness.
I try to see through the horse’s body to figure out what he’s thinking about what I’m asking him to do. So long as the wheels are turning in his head, I’ll wait for him to try an answer.
Hope this makes sense. It’s a tad abstract! And that can be tough to translate into a real ride or lunge for the horse you have in front of you.
Progress
Hi all!
I was browsing the boards researching and thought I would update you on our progress, in case anyone is still out there!
We’re cruising right along! We’re now riding in the unfenced sand and grass arenas with no longe warmup and doing just fine! Guess who’s even getting used to the arena mirrors. You’d all be so proud. I’ve started blogging a bit because it was so immensely helpful to hear your feedback, encouragement and tips last August. You can find a bit of our journey at www.blondeandbay.com
The lovebug got a couple months off and started back to work from the beginning. I worked him in all the different areas of the farm to make sure he was actually listening and not just on auto pilot in the round pen. Then we introduced my trainer from the ground while I was aboard. It seems to have done the trick and in no time we were riding out again.
A little bit of stickyness came back recently so we just dropped any pre-rider warmup from the routine. I think he had it in his head that the longe warmup (even though it is always brief) was actually the workout and was getting cranky about double duty.
When he was sticky last week, one well timed correction from the dressage whip was all it took. Yesterday he was actually hold your breath forward!!
We’re still working on steering a bit and learning to balance through transitions but it’s really so exciting to even be talking about straightness. I’m so pleased with his progress, attitude and general awesomeness. My only regret is that I allowed myself to be so clouded by other people’s interpretations of his behavior and training. Sure, I stuck up for the way I wanted to handle his balking, but I think the entire episode was weighed much too heavily. I don’t think he needed nearly the amount of time off and I’m a bit bummed about the lost time but it’s hard to be upset about what I could have done differently when he’s going so well now! Hindsight is 20/20 eh?
I’ve been lucky to chat with a lot of wonderful horsemen lately and it seems that everyone I talk to has similar stories about training young horses. I was also able to go to the USDF Young Horse Forum at Shannondale in October, and found it so enlightening. Even the perfect specimens that attended still had a bit of nerves in a new place or grumpiness from being worked hard the day before. Imagine my surprise, he isn’t the only youngster to ever say “no” once in a while! I’m so glad to realize that his behavior wasn’t anything to panic over, and certainly glad I didn’t send him off to a cowboy. He just needed a little patience and confidence.
Hopefully you’ll see us in the show ring soon! OK not too soon, we haven’t gone off property yet. Gulp.
To anyone out there looking for young horse training tips as I was (and probably will be again soon), take heart and have patience! They’re a wonderfully rewarding challenge, even on their most tricky days.
Thank you all again for helping me find the courage to move forward! xo
Great update! I’ve actually been wondering about you guys, but I couldn’t remember your user name to search. Good for you guys and good luck!
What a lucky daughter.
Just letting you both know:- Having an instructor teach her on him comes under the umbrella of her training him herself.
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