5 year old horses at Training Level

[EventerAJ]

@endlessclimb

Let’s continue this discussion here, to be respectful of the other topic.

Some feel that Training level is “categorically impossible” for a five year old horse.

I disagree.

I don’t believe Training level is achievable for EVERY 5 year old, nor should it be. But an accomplished, experienced competitor on an athletic, well-started 5 year old is certainly within the realm of being safe and educational for the horse.

I’ve done it, twice. I’ve also not done it. It entirely depends on the horse in question. For some horses, Training level is EASY. Like novice, or BN even, for other horses. They have talent to jump bigger fences, and just step over 1m. They have balance and strength to handle modest changes in terrain. They don’t bat an eye at ditches or banks or water, and can land on their feet well enough to skip through combinations. They have been ridden straight, positively, and forward through varieties of questions to feel comfortable answering them on course. The first 5yo OTTB I took Training was at the totally wrong venue (much harder than I wanted!) but he stepped up, jumped super and actually won it that day. He eventually went on to win Richland Park CCI** (now 3* level) three years later. Talent is talent and Training level was nothing for him.

My current 5yo has schooled and competed at unrecognized Training level. I haven’t bothered paying the extra $$ to enter him recognized yet, but he could go out there and jump around with no issue. He is a homebred, he’s been hacked out on xc courses since he was 3, walking over ditches and trotting through water. At age 4, I started him “real” xc. And he was a chicken! Lacked confidence over baby logs! He was NO WHERE near ready for YEH-4 classes (especially in early FL season), so we didn’t do that. However, by summer, he was starting to figure out beginner novice. And then everything clicked and he got bolder. Novice was no problem in late fall (4yo) and early winter (5yo). He was ready for YEH-5 this spring, and jumped well in the class We were schooling Training level by that point. He’s jumping better and better as the fences get bigger. He’s pretty much point and shoot on XC, will pack almost anyone around BN and N if you can steer and look up. I see no reason to keep competing him at novice; he can putz around having fun but not learning much, or I can take him Training level (sparingly) where he has to pay attention a little more, go forward more, or use his brain a little more. If I sell him one day, I would rather give him the education NOW, when I know I can do a good job giving him confidence, skills, and knowledge; versus selling him less experienced and risking his next rider (jr/ammy) making mistakes and losing his confidence (BTDT with another homebred).

[beowulf]

Thank you for starting this thread and for putting it into words more eloquently than I could

[RAyers]

First, context:

1. I tend to believe that it really isn’t until a horse is jumping 1m and up that they are truly jumping in the physiologic manner that has major biologic effect/risk.

2. I do not jump a horse until they are 4 years old as part of an intensifying body development program, but I also believe that then, jumping 0.75-0.95m is good to generate some bone/tendon/ligament stresses that enable future higher level performance, just like running them on the track. At those heights the risk of severe injury is reduced while new loads can be imparted on the developing horse that train the tissues for function later in life.

Those caveats being presented, I agree that “it depends.” As part of a well considered and judicious training program, I see no issue.

[millerra]

I think the commentary here really adds weight to the idea that safety is really about education (knowledge) and experience as a horse person and honest self or coach appraisal of readiness/ability. I honestly don’t know how USEA can write rules because clearly what is safe for one is a (potential) disaster for another. And of course, for the latest accident - it may have been truly an oh s*** that just went horribly and tragically sideways without any lack of preparation or skill.

it has been a really sad fall season and it gives me, a LL AA - pause to consider the safety of what I do because we tend to think of training level and lower as safer… Preparation - that’s all I got.

[Larksmom]

That is a beautiful photo! Stunning horse!

[Mounted]

In my experience, it is fairly common for horses who show the talent for, and are in training geared towards, competing at the upper levels to be competing at training level in their five year old year. That’s also consistent with the design of the USEA’s Young Event Horse program. From the FAQ about the program

What level of competence/training is expected of the 4-year-olds? 5-year-olds?

Four-year-olds should be competent at the Novice level. Early in the season, we encourage organizers to provide very inviting courses that are closer to Beginner Novice. By the end of the year, courses should be comparable to a strong Novice event, and include a few Training level obstacles. The YEH Championship will have up to four Training level fences for the 4-year-olds, and the 5-year-olds will have up to four Preliminary level fences.

Five-year-old courses at the beginning of the season are comparable to a challenging Novice, or a straightforward Training level. These horses end the season with solid Training level courses that also include some straightforward Preliminary fences.

One of the challenges of eventing is that amateurs compete side by side with professionals (who themselves vary in experience, ability, and ambition), and at the lower levels in particular, the same competition serves very different purposes for different riders and horses. I don’t think it would be good for the sport or the people and horses involved in it to try to create a maximally restrictive set of one-size-fits-all rules, especially at the lower levels.

[Blugal]

I agree that it depends on several factors: rider and horse experience and ability, plus the actual circumstances.

I’m currently a complete adult amateur, with desk job and muffin top, but I’ve brought lots of horses into eventing and a number up to Prelim/Int. I’ve ridden a 5 year old at Training in April. He was definitely ready, and had so much scope that he jumped better over slightly bigger jumps. But he also needed someone experienced guiding him to ensure he was going confidently.

This weekend I rode my current 5 y.o. at a XC venue that only has small logs, a bank, and water in the water jump (but no jumps), with a friend on two of her 5 year olds. Mine did one event at 85cm last year, then missed much of this year due to rider injury. She is not in any way ready for Training or even Novice.

My friend is a long-time pro. Both of hers have run 2 or 3 Trainings now. They did well, and are capable, AND she realizes they are still developing. She came with me and schooled them over the terrain and the small logs to work on their rideability. Which is exactly the right thing to do. She isn’t pounding them over 3’3 to 3’6 jumps every day.

[enjoytheride]

I think if you compare it to straight SJ a 5yo jumping Training height is fairly common.

[Blugal]

To be fair though, show jumps fall down. And jumpers spend a lot of time on flatwork and footwork; it’s not full height jumping all the time either.

[endlessclimb]

I don’t disagree that it depends. But I think, by and large with your average adult ammy, a horse should not be doing training as a 5 year old. They simply do not know what they do not know, they haven’t been on earth long enough to confidently bail a rider’s mistake out.

If you, as a rider, are 100% sure that your horse will get you out of a jam or is prepared to answer the questions at the level, or that you’re so good you can set that marginally rideable baby up perfectly every time, then by all means go right on ahead. How many people and how many 5 year olds fit that criteria? And if they don’t, why are they saying “screw it, let’s wing it” when the fences do not fall down?

I categorically go slower on my training with my horses though, because all it takes is one mishap where a horse is over faced and you’ve created a lifelong confidence issue.

[Cowboy_Girl]

As many have said it depends on the horse. An appendix horse growing up on the ranch will have more footwork experience in his body at 5 than many eastern horses will at 20.
They will be plenty ready to get you out of jam.

[Mounted]

@endlessclimb

And if they don’t, why are they saying “screw it, let’s wing it” when the fences do not fall down?

Who are you suggesting is saying this? I certainly hope it isn’t in reference to the accident this past weekend (where the horse was not 5, and where nothing I’ve seen suggests an unprepared or indifferent rider “winging it.”). If this were happening, it would be concerning. But I just don’t see it happening.

[endlessclimb]

I’ve not seen anything that says the horse WAS in fact prepared, 7 or not, and the end result isn’t supportive of that, either.

If the YEH is pushing 5 year olds doing this, you have to know many of them really aren’t ready.

[Mounted]

@endlessclimb

I’ve not seen anything that says the horse WAS in fact prepared, 7 or not, and the end result isn’t supportive of that, either.

If the YEH is pushing 5 year olds doing this, you have to know many of them really aren’t ready.

Good grief. This sort of cruel and uninformed judgement is why I left these forums well over 15 years ago. I can’t say they have improved.

The YEH program is not pushing all 5 year olds to go training. It is a program geared towards horses with upper level potential:

The USEA Young Event Horse Program (YEH) is best described as an eventing talent search. YEH’s first season as an official program of the USEA was in 2005. The program’s goal is to identify young horses that possesses the talent and disposition that, with proper training, can excel in the uppermost levels of eventing.

This one of the points you refuse to see: horses (and riders) differ in their abilities and progression. What is perfectly appropriate for one may not be for another.

The second point you seemingly will not accept us that sometimes even a catastrophic outcome is not a sign of under preparation. Things can go wrong, even badly wrong, for horses and riders well within their capabilities. It’s tragic when it happens but accidents do happen. (Not every serious car accident is a sign of a dangerous road or vehicle or a bad driver, either…) Speculating otherwise, about a horse and rider you do not know, competing at a show you did not attend, serves no purpose. It is devoid of information to help people make better choices for themselves, and cannot contribute to a constructive discussion of safety for lack of facts. It is simply mean and smug.

[endlessclimb]

If we want to talk about the event specifically, we can go back to the other thread.

But YEH does absolutely indicate that training is for 5 year olds.

@Mounted

The YEH Championship will have up to four Training level fences for the 4-year-olds, and the 5-year-olds will have up to four Preliminary level fences.

Five-year-old courses at the beginning of the season are comparable to a challenging Novice, or a straightforward Training level. These horses end the season with solid Training level courses that also include some straightforward Preliminary fences.

[Beam_Me_Up]

Another vote for “it depends.” I think the majority of my own event horses raced for some or all of their 5 year old year (a couple I took training at 6, including my current guy who is 14 and still eventing), but there are plenty of well started and ridden purpose-breds for whom training level is not a big deal. In my area (2) this is very common to see.

Caveats: The sport is changing for the more technical, people’s experience taking youngish horses at training level 10-20 years ago may not completely apply. USEA allows 4 year olds to go training and the 4 yo YEH includes some training specs.

I support the current system that allows different MER requirements at higher levels based on rider experience. Not sure an ammy/pro distinction makes as much sense, or that there is an “average ammy.” I would hate to see MER requirements for lower levels, though. That would be a very expensive hurdle, especially in areas with fewer events.

[Mounted]

@endlessclimb

But YEH does absolutely indicate that training is for 5 year olds.

The YEH program, and the training level fences in its five-year-old test, are for “young horses that possesses the talent and disposition that, with proper training, can excel in the uppermost levels of eventing.” No one — not me, other posters, or the officials behind the YEH program, is saying that training is for all 5 year olds.

[EventerAJ]

@endlessclimb

But YEH does absolutely indicate that training is for 5 year olds.

True. But YEH is absolutely NOT for every 4 or 5 year old horse. It’s not supposed to be. It is geared toward the athletically gifted, mentally and physically mature horses on an upper level career path. It falls down to rider responsibility yet again, to determine which horses will benefit from the YEH program, and which ones are not ready. IMO, horses whom are able to succeed in the YEH pathway are definitely in a “leg up” position to pursue an upper level career. That doesn’t mean the immature ones won’t catch up-- many of them do! And some will go farther! But a horse who is able to gain successful mileage at Training level at age 5 has an advantage-- he has more experience, fitness, and skills going into age 6 than the 5yr old still doing BN/N.

Even if that 5yo doesn’t grow up to go Intermediate or Advanced, having good mileage at T level will better prepare him to be a happy ammy packer in a few years.

[endlessclimb]

So if the YEH is only for the most exceptional horses, of which there are not and should not be many, puts 5 year olds into Training, it should me MOST unusual to see Joe Blow (pro or ammy) and their 5 year old in it, no?

[EventerAJ]

It depends on what you mean by “exceptional.” Many horses start out as Upper Level Prospects. Few actually make it there. But that doesn’t mean “only eventual 5* horses” can do the YEH-5 classes. There’s actually an award at YEH Championships for the best amateur prospect, in addition to the overall winner. The program is hoping to find 5* horses, but still provide an educational experience at qualifiers for the 5-year old horse who is properly suited and prepared for the class. I didn’t say ONLY future 5-star horses are able to do the YEH-5; I said riders should use good judgment in determining which horses are a good fit for the program. A horse who ultimately becomes the world’s best prelim packer could still have the talent and ability to easily do Training at 5yo.